Warrantee opinion

Jun 16, 2020
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My central heating has a 7 year warrantee. It was installed in 2018 with full service history.

Between obtaining an estimate and the installation the law changed. This meant that I had to have extra fuel saving components. I chose a temperature compensator. and was charged a couple of hundred pounds for it. This regulates the maximum boiler temperature in line with the ambient outside temperature. It provides a much more gentle heat output in warmer weather, probably makes no difference when it's very cold.

The sensor is fitted to the flue terminal and wired to the control panel. The boiler temperature knob then becomes a temperature curve adjuster.

I would personally now call that part of the 'integrated controls'.

It recently failed.

I made a claim. The Warrantee dept. said that is covered. The engineer arrived and said it wasn't. He disconnected it so the boiler now works without the compensator. He said only the bits in the white box are covered and that this is part of the flue.

I disagreed and read the terms and conditions. Clause 8 states 'This Warrantee only relates to the boiler and integrated controls'.

My argument is. Once wired in, this is part of the integrated controls.

I am spending many hours on the phone trying to argue my point. So far the people I am speaking to are agreeing with me. Just need to speak to the technical dept. now to see if they can convince me of a good reason why it is not covered. I am still holding.

What do other think.

John
 
Nov 17, 2005
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John,

I agree with your theory and would ask the department who are verifying your warranty status to email you with that confirmation to you so you have it to hand when the engineer arrives. He then has to argue the point with the company, not you with him.

Firkle
 

Sam Vimes

Moderator
Sep 7, 2020
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It would seem to me that in order to be compliant with the legislation your system needs this device. Therefore I'd say it was an integral part of the system.
 
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Jun 16, 2020
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John,

I agree with your theory and would ask the department who are verifying your warranty status to email you with that confirmation to you so you have it to hand when the engineer arrives. He then has to argue the point with the company, not you with him.

Firkle
I gave up waiting on the phone, called the reporting number back and got an email address of them. Email now sent.

John
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hello John,

You have I think, effectively given us the answer when you tell us " I chose a temperature compensator. " suggesting there were other legitimate options that would have met the regulations.

The fact the sensor has been disconnected, and the boiler continues to operate, points to the fact the compensator is not essential to the operation of the boiler, and therefore is unlikely to be classed as being integral to the boiler.

If the definition of integral was fulfilled by the terminations being inside the boilers housing, then that would have items like time switches and thermostats around the house as being classed as integral.

For that reason I think you might be onto a loser in this instance.

However don't forget that you still have the CRA which might work for you as its only 3 to 4 years since the device was installed, and I personally think a piece of of boiler technology that is not in the flow of the hottest gasses should not wear out in such a short time, which raises the question was it faulty from new or not adequately designed or manufactured?
 

Sam Vimes

Moderator
Sep 7, 2020
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The fact the sensor has been disconnected, and the boiler continues to operate, points to the fact the compensator is not essential to the operation of the boiler, and therefore is unlikely to be classed as being integral to the boiler.
I don't know what the current legislation is, nor the exact details of this system but although as you say the boiler still operates it would appear not to be operating within the requirements of the system as defined by the legislation.

If the legislation is a legal requirement then I would guess when this part fails the system should not be used.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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I’m a bit puzzled as to how this item was chosen. You say you were required to have fuel saving mods between estimate and fitting due to legislative changes. And you choose the Temperature Compensator. Was there a menu of changes but not all, or any were mandated? . Seems a mix and match approach unusual in legislative requirements.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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I don't know what the current legislation is, nor the exact details of this system but although as you say the boiler still operates it would appear not to be operating within the requirements of the system as defined by the legislation.

If the legislation is a legal requirement then I would guess when this part fails the system should not be used.
Under the Gas Safety (installation and Use) Regulations, gas fitters have a legal duty to prevent an unsafe gas appliance from operating. They are also required to complete installations in accordance with the codes of practice and the manufacturers instructions.

In this instance the fitter has disabled or removed the compensation system, and has allowed the boiler to continue to operate. We can infer from this the fitter deemed the boler to both be safe and compliant with the necessary regulations.

This also gives rise to the notion the compensator or any of the other optional add ons are not "integral" to the operation or the boiler, otherwise the boiler would not operate.

I’m a bit puzzled as to how this item was chosen. You say you were required to have fuel saving mods between estimate and fitting due to legislative changes. And you choose the Temperature Compensator. Was there a menu of changes but not all, or any were mandated? . Seems a mix and match approach unusual in legislative requirements.
The way this type of legislation is usually written only defines the goal, it does not normally define the method of reaching the goal, so it would be up to boiler manufacturers to determine the method(s) that can be used to achieve the goal, and the customer/installer would choose the most appropriate one to suit the installation or customers wishes.
 
Jun 16, 2020
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I’m a bit puzzled as to how this item was chosen. You say you were required to have fuel saving mods between estimate and fitting due to legislative changes. And you choose the Temperature Compensator. Was there a menu of changes but not all, or any were mandated? . Seems a mix and match approach unusual in legislative requirements.
I don’t remember the specifics. But I was given a sort list of I think 5 choices of which I had to choose from. Legislation prevented the installer installing if I didn‘t add it.

But I agree with Sam, as it was a legislation requirement it was not a totally free choice. Also. It actually fundamentally changes the way the boiler operates, including it‘s controls. It is made by the same manufacturer and has to be installed by a registered operative and certified.

John
 
Jun 16, 2020
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In this instance the fitter has disabled or removed the compensation system, and has allowed the boiler to continue to operate. We can infer from this the fitter deemed the boler to both be safe and compliant with the necessary regulations.
It could be equally argued, that as the compensator was a legal requirement at the time the boiler was installed. Disabling it has rendered said boiler illegal! Therefore not compliant.

John
 
May 7, 2012
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I think if you had a choice and this was the option you took then I would go along with the Prof and say unfortunately the claim is unlikely to succeed but do not know what sort of money we are talking about. In theory to prove your case under the CRA you would need independent evidence, and even then some account might be made of usage to date. You can argue that it should last more than it has, and was therefore faulty, but without independent evidence it might not work.
Possibly if you are talking about a fairly small sum say under £500 they may simply pay up if you go for the small claims procedure as it would cost them more to try and defend the claim but there is no guarantee.
Possibly have a word with the Citizens Advice.
 
Jun 16, 2020
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I think if you had a choice and this was the option you took then I would go along with the Prof and say unfortunately the claim is unlikely to succeed but do not know what sort of money we are talking about. In theory to prove your case under the CRA you would need independent evidence, and even then some account might be made of usage to date. You can argue that it should last more than it has, and was therefore faulty, but without independent evidence it might not work.
Possibly if you are talking about a fairly small sum say under £500 they may simply pay up if you go for the small claims procedure as it would cost them more to try and defend the claim but there is no guarantee.
Possibly have a word with the Citizens Advice.
I forget the cost. But less than £200 I think. All it is is a tiny temperature sensor value about £5!

It came with kits and looms to fit to various boilers. But was a simple fit to mine just two wires into existing terminals.

To be honest. I am happy to use the boiler as it is. All it means is I need to manually adjust the boiler temperature according to the weather conditions.

I was taken aback when the technician said it was part of the flue. And that only things “in the box” are covered. Which is different than what their own terms say.

One of the customer services operators said she would send out a new part for me. But must have got further advice about the dangers of inviting a customer to interfere with the boiler so withdrew the offer.

Just a thought. If you choose an optional extra when buying a car. Doesn’t that then come under the standard warrantee?

I will keep all up to date with the results And replies.

John
 
Nov 11, 2009
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I just adjust the boiler water temperature as required by the season. It sits next to my coffee machine so its dead easy. But the boiler still adjust its firing rate automatically. So when hot water comes on in the morning it starts with a higher burner then as the cylinder comes up to the set temperature the boiler firing rate is very gentle.
 
Jun 16, 2020
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I just adjust the boiler water temperature as required by the season. It sits next to my coffee machine so its dead easy. But the boiler still adjust its firing rate automatically. So when hot water comes on in the morning it starts with a higher burner then as the cylinder comes up to the set temperature the boiler firing rate is very gentle.
The downside for me, is I have to go all the way to the garage. I recon I may have to make about 3 adjustments over the winter.

🤪

John
 
Jun 16, 2020
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I’m a bit puzzled as to how this item was chosen. You say you were required to have fuel saving mods between estimate and fitting due to legislative changes. And you choose the Temperature Compensator. Was there a menu of changes but not all, or any were mandated? . Seems a mix and match approach unusual in legislative requirements.

This is the legislation that I, and the manufacturer had to comply with in 2018 when I had the installation. It‘s called ‘boiler plus’

***********************

What does Boiler Plus mean?

Essentially Boiler Plus is a new set of regulations, which affects only heating engineers in England and will change how new gas-fired combi boilers are installed into existing heating systems.

The main crux of the legislation is:

  • Combi boiler replacements must have a minimum efficiency of 92% ErP


However, homeowners and installers must then select from four different energy-saving measures to work alongside this:

  • Load compensation control
  • Weather compensation control
  • Smart thermostat with automation and optimisation
  • Flue gas heat recovery unit with a time and temperature control

**********************
This is extracted from Worcester Bosch. Which mine isn’t But the wording is the same.

Not sure what the “load compensation“ option is. The “weather compensation” is the one I chose. I had previously purchased the “Smart thermostat”. But mine did not include optimisation of the boiler so I could not use that. The “flue gas recovery”. Option was very expensive and not cost effective according to my installer.

John
 
Nov 11, 2009
13,373
2,802
40,935
This is the legislation that I, and the manufacturer had to comply with in 2018 when I had the installation. It‘s called ‘boiler plus’

***********************

What does Boiler Plus mean?

Essentially Boiler Plus is a new set of regulations, which affects only heating engineers in England and will change how new gas-fired combi boilers are installed into existing heating systems.

The main crux of the legislation is:


  • Combi boiler replacements must have a minimum efficiency of 92% ErP


However, homeowners and installers must then select from four different energy-saving measures to work alongside this:


  • Load compensation control
  • Weather compensation control
  • Smart thermostat with automation and optimisation
  • Flue gas heat recovery unit with a time and temperature control

**********************
This is extracted from Worcester Bosch. Which mine isn’t But the wording is the same.

Not sure what the “load compensation“ option is. The “weather compensation” is the one I chose. I had previously purchased the “Smart thermostat”. But mine did not include optimisation of the boiler so I could not use that. The “flue gas recovery”. Option was very expensive and not cost effective according to my installer.

John
Thanks. It’s amazing that the regs are for just England. Wonder if the other three countries adopted similar ones. And some think the EU bureaucratic 😀
 
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Thanks. It’s amazing that the regs are for just England. Wonder if the other three countries adopted similar ones. And some think the EU bureaucratic 😀
If the legislation comes under the building regs then it should be for England and Wales. Scotland have there own. I don’t know what happens in NI

John
 
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Nov 11, 2009
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Thought I would read up on the science of the bits that you have had a problem with. Quite an interesting article both on boiler efficiency and how compensation works. Link is below fir info. What’s surprising is I wonder how many installers are knowledgeable enough to help the homeowner to make the correct choice?

https://www.chapmanplumbers.com/home/how-to-maximise-domestic-condensing-boiler-efficiency/

PS from the description in the link I would consider either to be an integral part of the system as they interact with the boiler controls for optimising efficiency.
 
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Jul 18, 2017
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This is the legislation that I, and the manufacturer had to comply with in 2018 when I had the installation. It‘s called ‘boiler plus’

***********************

What does Boiler Plus mean?

Essentially Boiler Plus is a new set of regulations, which affects only heating engineers in England and will change how new gas-fired combi boilers are installed into existing heating systems.

The main crux of the legislation is:


  • Combi boiler replacements must have a minimum efficiency of 92% ErP


However, homeowners and installers must then select from four different energy-saving measures to work alongside this:


  • Load compensation control
  • Weather compensation control
  • Smart thermostat with automation and optimisation
  • Flue gas heat recovery unit with a time and temperature control

**********************
This is extracted from Worcester Bosch. Which mine isn’t But the wording is the same.

Not sure what the “load compensation“ option is. The “weather compensation” is the one I chose. I had previously purchased the “Smart thermostat”. But mine did not include optimisation of the boiler so I could not use that. The “flue gas recovery”. Option was very expensive and not cost effective according to my installer.

John
TBH we have seen how some companies twist the legislation to frighten people into buying something that they do not have to buy. Either that or the company did not fully understand the legislation themselves.
I am not aware of any legislation that has been put into force where it is for units bought prior to the legislation forcing the owner of the unit to pay themselves for the modification.
If consumers were forced to pay for a modification for an item bought prior to the legislation millions of cars on the road would be illegal for starters.
Of course I could be wrong and there may be legislation where people have had to cough up and pay to comply with the new legislation.
Just a thought?
 
Nov 11, 2009
13,373
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TBH we have seen how some companies twist the legislation to frighten people into buying something that they do not have to buy. Either that or the company did not fully understand the legislation themselves.
I am not aware of any legislation that has been put into force where it is for units bought prior to the legislation forcing the owner of the unit to pay themselves for the modification.
If consumers were forced to pay for a modification for an item bought prior to the legislation millions of cars on the road would be illegal for starters.
Of course I could be wrong and there may be legislation where people have had to cough up and pay to comply with the new legislation.
Just a thought?
We had a similar issue wrt the height of a hob extractor fan. The kitchen fitter quoted legislation but that was not detailed on the trade association website he showed me. Only the height was mentioned but no links. HSE excellent guidance recommended going with the height specified by the hob or extraction fan maker. The highest being selected if they differed. In the end it was fitted where I requested it and the only concern the fitter then had was that the top of the fan was not level with the top of the units either side. But I was more concerned about function not form. He also said the freestanding coooker should have a minimum 25 mm gap away from the adjacent units. But AEG specified 2 mm. IE it’s designed to be seen as a “ fitted” unit.
 
Jun 16, 2020
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TBH we have seen how some companies twist the legislation to frighten people into buying something that they do not have to buy. Either that or the company did not fully understand the legislation themselves.
I am not aware of any legislation that has been put into force where it is for units bought prior to the legislation forcing the owner of the unit to pay themselves for the modification.
If consumers were forced to pay for a modification for an item bought prior to the legislation millions of cars on the road would be illegal for starters.
Of course I could be wrong and there may be legislation where people have had to cough up and pay to comply with the new legislation.
Just a thought?
That is not the case in this instance. The legislation had changed AFTER I had the estimate but BEFORE we had it fitted. Therefore, I, the installer and the manufacturer HAD to comply.

People who had had the same boiler fitted the week before did not HAVE to have it. But could have had their boiler updated if they chose to.

It therefore follows, that as the technician removed the device from my boiler, technically he was rendering the boiler illegal to operate.

John
 
Jul 18, 2017
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That is not the case in this instance. The legislation had changed AFTER I had the estimate but BEFORE we had it fitted. Therefore, I, the installer and the manufacturer HAD to comply.

People who had had the same boiler fitted the week before did not HAVE to have it. But could have had their boiler updated if they chose to.

It therefore follows, that as the technician removed the device from my boiler, technically he was rendering the boiler illegal to operate.

John
Thanks for clarifying and you are correct about now operating an illegal boiler. If you are getting nowhere then perhaps tell them that you are considering approaching the respective body and reporting them for making the boiler illegal. That may motivate them? LOL!
 
Jun 20, 2005
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A quick Google of the top boiler manufacturers warranties says none are the same.
some include words like the “entire system” and qualify the statement by mentioning pretty well everything.
”Integrated Controls” . Is this defined in the warranty wording ?
In the literal meaning of the phrase I say it means the controls attached to the boiler at the time of manufacture, not installation. Eg you would not expect radiators and thermostatic valves to be covered.
The new legislation relates to the installation rather than how the boiler is made.
Sadly John I am in the Prof and Ray camp.
 
Jun 16, 2020
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Thanks for clarifying and you are correct about now operating an illegal boiler. If you are getting nowhere then perhaps tell them that you are considering approaching the respective body and reporting them for making the boiler illegal. That may motivate them? LOL!
I will hold in reserve. At the moment they are working with me to make a decision so ‘heavy‘ tactics are not necessary.

A quick Google of the top boiler manufacturers warranties says none are the same.
some include words like the “entire system” and qualify the statement by mentioning pretty well everything.
”Integrated Controls” . Is this defined in the warranty wording ?
In the literal meaning of the phrase I say it means the controls attached to the boiler at the time of manufacture, not installation. Eg you would not expect radiators and thermostatic valves to be covered.
The new legislation relates to the installation rather than how the boiler is made.
Sadly John I am in the Prof and Ray camp.
Thanks for the opinion, I see all those points. It seems to be a matter of interpretation. Yes, the term ‘Integrated Controls’ is defined a little. But not as nicely defined as you put it as in ‘controls attached to the boiler at the time of manufacture’. It clearly says external controls like rad and room stats are not covered. Also flues are not covered.

My argument is based on:

The item HAD to be fitted to make the boiler conform to the legislation at that time. If that (or one of the other 3 choices highlighted above). We’re not agreed to and fitted by the boiler manufacturers registered installer to their specification. Then the boiler would NOT conform, On that basis, it could be argued that the part WAS fitted as part of the manufacture, just not in the factory.

Removing the device renders the boiler technically illegal. Though safe.

The device actually completely changes the use of one of the boiler controls. Which sounds integrated to me.


John
 
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