weights and kerbweights

May 4, 2010
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On looking at my licence I now realise that I can only tow up to 3500 mam (trailer and vehicle) I have an audi A6 1.9 tdi avant where does this leave me for caravan choice, I am confused as to what the weight includes, i.e do I have to take passengers into consideration, this is becoming confusing. I want to tow but feel having to take an extra test would ruin my caravan budget.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Jon,

The limit on your licence refers to the combined MAM's of the car and trailer.

The definition of MAM is Maximum Authorised Mass. It represents the heaviest the car can be, and similarly for the caravan but it is often quoted as the MTPLM.

It has nothing to do with what the car or actually weighs even if you were to put it on weighbridge. It the the maximum they can weigh even if they are not fully loaded.

To work out what size of caravan you may tow:

3500Kg - Cars MAM = caravan MTPLM.

The other important bit that you must watch out for is that the caravans MTPLM must not exceed the cars unladen weight

As you don't give enough details about your car (Model year body style engine and power variation) I cant begin to give you any guide figures.
 
Apr 13, 2010
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hi john,is pretty confiusin,we had to go through it all the last couple of weeks. your car weighs around 1600kg,just over a ton and a half. you always need your car to weigh more. it has a nraked towing limit of 1600kg but you really need it under. for each person to give you a rough idea for the average person and luggage you need to allow 25kg. then on top you have aqua rolls,gas bottles,pots and pans,etc etc. check your towbar limit so you know not to overload it

i would probably get a van no more than 1200kg to be safe taking into account hills etc.if i remember correctly your car is a diesel so that helps. to double check everything ive said have a look in the back if your car manual.

one more thing.when you go away in a new van for the first time try and go to a weigh bridge,best way to be sure of your ratios as thats what were doin at weekend when we set off on our first outing

danny
 
Mar 14, 2005
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The maximum allowable weight of the complete outfit is what is says. It is the maximum that the car may weigh including its full complement of passengers, luggage, the noseweight of the caravan, etc. plus the maximum allowable axle load of the caravan.

If, for example, the plated maximum weight of the car is 2100kg then the maximum weight of the caravan that you may tow would be 1400kg plus whatever the noseweight is, say 85kg, making 1485kg in total. Note that one refers to the maximum plated weight, not the actual weight, so it doesn't matter how many or how few passengers are being carried.

Don't forget that the total maximum weight of the caravan must not exceed the unladen weight of the car, either, but in the case of an Audi A6 this criterion is not likely to apply before reaching the 3500kg gross train weight limit.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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John L's statement "3500Kg - Cars MAM = caravan MTPLM" is not strictly correct because the car's MAM includes the noseweight which is also included in the MTPLM of the caravan, so you would be counting the noseweight twice.
 

602

May 25, 2009
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Hi.

The term KERBWEIGHT is irrelevent to everyone but the Caravan Club (OK, not exactly irrelevent, but it has no LEGAL relevence)

Check your V5. With luck, there wil be figure shown for UNLADEN weight, probably called something like MASS IN RUNNING ORDER (aka MIRO ?). The MGW of your caravan must not exceed that figure. That should shorten your shopping list quite a bit.

The combined MGWs of car and trailer must not exceed 3500kg. So break-out your calculator.

Neither car, nor caravan, may exceed their own maximum weights. Thats MGW, axle and nose-weight limits.

It is far easier to buy a car and caravan, THEN decide if its a legal combination, than to try to calculate what you can drive/pull.

602
 
Mar 14, 2005
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The vehicle weight that 602 is referring to in the second paragraph is called unladen weight in law, but the V5c calls it Mass in Service. In the case of the Audi A6 in question, its mass in service is high enough not to be an issue regarding the requirement for the caravan's MGW not to exceed the Mass in Service of the car. The 3500kg limit will be reached long before that.

It's certainly bad practice to buy car and caravan and only afterwards check if it is a legal combination, as 602 suggests. What if it isn't legal? That would be a lot of money down the drain.

With the exception of those who are lucky enough financially to be able to buy a car specifically to tow the caravan that they want, most purchases work the other way. The car, being in use far more often than the caravan, is usually the determining factor in what size caravan one can pull.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Sorry. Please disregard my statement about the 100% weight ratio not being an issue in the case of the Audi A6 because the car would always be heavier than the caravan and still be within the 3500kg limit. This is not the case. I got my sums wrong.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Lutz,

We should really differentiate between values of Mass and force (Load or Weight) more accurately. Mass in Kg and force in Newtons (or Kgf)

The difference is important in relation to the Driving licence restrictions, where the regulations refer to the Mass not the weight or load.

The post 1997 Cat B allows the driver to operate a vehicle and braked trailer where the combined MAM's do not exceed 3500Kg.

The transference of nose load you refer to dos not apply because the regulations refer to mass not weight or load.

Both the car and trailer both have a mass, and unless you actually cut off and move a physically chunk, the Mass of the each does not alter.

The nose load, is not a transference of Mass it is a sharing of the forces the Mass creates, so there is no shedding of caravan mass regardless of how much nose load is generated.

So in this context 3500Kg - Cars MAM = caravan MTPLM" I believe is correct.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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No, John. If you load the car up to its MAM and then hitch the caravan up, you would be overloading the the car by the amount of the noseweight. Therefore you must deduct the noseweight from the MAM of the car before adding the MTPLM of the caravan.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Lutz,

Normally, I have little trouble in seeing your argument in this type of matter but on this one I strongly think you have it mixed up and wrong.

The wording of the licence regulation refers to scalar value of mass not the vector quantities of load or weight. It is not referring to the detailed mechanical capabilities of the actual vehicles onlythier combined MAMs. So if the maxim combined MAM (Masses) cannot exceed 3500Kg, then the take away the cars MAM and that leaves the maximum MAM or MTPLM that is available for the trailer subject to the 100% limit imposed by a another aspect of the regulations.

It's the difference between mass and force, I agree that if the car is loaded solo to its MAM, that means any additional MASS will exceed the MAM, and also the load on the axles, but without adding mass you can add load, (nose load) which does not increase the cars mass but does exceed the load margins.

Nowhere is load, weight or force referred to in this part of the driving licence regulations, thus load transfers have no bearing on the regulation, and after all it's a paper calculation, the other difficulty is if loads were taken into account; what value should be used for the nose load transfer? Its different for different makes of car, hitch and it is a variable for the caravan as it is dependant on load distribution.

The argument is largely academic as other real life factors come into play, but the point highlights the frequent misuse of units of mass force and weight.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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John, I still beg to differ. The total mass of the caravan (its MTPLM) is distributed between its axle(s) and the car's towball (i.e. noseweight). That part acting on the towball is treated just like any other payload such as the luggage in the boot, etc. Therefore, one cannot add the MAM of the car to the MTPLM of the caravan to arrive at a total MAM of the complete outfit. That is also the way the law is to be interpreted.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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ps: The law does not say that the sum of the MAM of the car plus the MAM (or MTPLM) of the caravan must not exceed 3500kg, but the MAM of the complete outfit, and that is the total mass acting on the scales if the complete outfit is placed on a weighbridge.
 
Apr 26, 2010
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I have been reading all the comments regarding towing weights and must admit I have not understood half of it but would like to know if somebody can tell me do I have any restrictions on what I can tow.

I have looked at my license and it says the following:

Catagories

A,B,BE,B1,C1,C1E,D1,D1E, f,k,l,n,p

With the following comment codes

A) Exchange of license from different issuing country

B) Exchange of license from different issuing country

C1E) Not more than 8,250Kg

D1) Not for hire or reward

D1E) Not for hire or reward weight limit does not apply

I would appreciate it if you can confirm I could tow over the discussed 3,500Kg limit you have all been discussing should I either wish to or obliged to do so

Look forward to hearing from you all

John
 

602

May 25, 2009
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I have been reading all the comments regarding towing weights and must admit I have not understood half of it but would like to know if somebody can tell me do I have any restrictions on what I can tow.

I have looked at my license and it says the following:

Catagories

A,B,BE,B1,C1,C1E,D1,D1E, f,k,l,n,p

With the following comment codes

A) Exchange of license from different issuing country

B) Exchange of license from different issuing country

C1E) Not more than 8,250Kg

D1) Not for hire or reward

D1E) Not for hire or reward weight limit does not apply

I would appreciate it if you can confirm I could tow over the discussed 3,500Kg limit you have all been discussing should I either wish to or obliged to do so

Look forward to hearing from you all

John
Hi

B+E allows you to drive up to 3500kg, and tow a big trailer. If you are towing with over-run brakes, the weight of the trailer will be limited to 3500kg. Unless you are driving a Transit TYPE van, ot a big 4x4, you will be further limited by the cars towing limit.

If you are relying on your C or D groups, you really ought to know more than I do.

At age 70, you will automatically lose you C,C+E,D,and D+E, unless you take steps to retain them (Medical @
 

Parksy

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Nov 12, 2009
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Hi Jon

The towing weight restrictions mainly affect those who passed their driving test after 1st January 1997. From the information that you have given you are not affected by this weight limit.

You need to check in your cars handbook to find out if the manufacturers have stipulated a towing weight limit for the model that you own.

If there is no manufacturers towing limit the kerbweight of your car is the figure which will determine your choice of caravan.

There is information available on the website Home Page under Towing Law which should help you.
 
Apr 26, 2010
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Thank You Parksy

I passed my test in 1966 so I do not have any restrictions

I also lived in France for over ten years towing a twin axle all over Europe and a license condition in France at that time was that I had what they called an E category license

Regards

John
 

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