weights

[bode5997]

After deciding to go back to a caravan,a quick mooch through my cars important bits in the owners book,has revealed that our car cant tow the vans weve been loking at.We have a newish car and the vans weve looked at are older models,which back then were quite heavy...ish.Why cant todays smaller engined cars tow like the older models????Is it because of emmisions killing the engine power i wonder?

 

[ProfJohnL]

After deciding to go back to a caravan,a quick mooch through my cars important bits in the owners book,has revealed that our car cant tow the vans weve been loking at.We have a newish car and the vans weve looked at are older models,which back then were quite heavy...ish.Why cant todays smaller engined cars tow like the older models????Is it because of emmisions killing the engine power i wonder?

You have in essence answered your own question.

There has definitely been a drive to lower certain emissions, so the motor manufacturers have been working on emmison reduction schemes. One way has been to reduce the swept capacity of the engines and other features such as compression ratio's, control by fuel injection, and post combustion bypasses and filters.

Most of these features by themselves would reduce the power available from engines, so they have also been slowly but surely increasing the power output per swept volume. and whilst for example in the 60s most cars had on average larger swept volumes and similar car of the 1990's but the power outputs have generally grown. Most 1990 cars were capable of travelling faster and further using less fuel than their 30 year old fore-bearers. despite the fact that most cars 1990's cars were actually heavier than their 1960's equivalents. one of teh biggest contributions to better fuel economy was the improvement of the aerodynamic shape of vehicles which has bigger impact at higher speeds.

Since the turn of the century, even tighter emission controls have been applied, and with the uncertainty of the oil reserves and access to them, there has been a general move to further reduce emissions and improve fuel economy. Again manufacturers have looked at reducing the number of moving parts in an engine to reduce frictional losses, (for example may V8's have become V6's, and V6's are now 4 pots, and there has been an increase in 3 Cylinder engines in the city run about ranges) and that saves fuel, and makes emission control easier. The other big factor has been weight saving measures (for example the use of tyre repair systems or space saver spare wheels.) Smaller masses need less power to move them.

This trend does not help the caravanner, who traditionally have looked to heavy powerful cars. But there are some very capable cars still out there, but they tend to be more upmarket models with upmarket price tags.

It is my expectation that caravanners will soon need to change some entrenched caravanning habits, Look to light less gadget enriched caravan to get their out fits down in weight. They may have to consider towing at lower speeds to keep high ratio outfits under proper control. Even considering using hired vehicles to tow or even have their caravan delivered and collected from sites by specialist companies.

I'm sure others will have alternative views on the subject.

 

[Hutch]

And a Merry Christmas, in Advance Prof, I agree, almost fully with your reply, but I suppose more people will be willing to site caravans on permanant pitches, Not our thing though, or of course go for a heavier older cars, over 25 years, therefore no road Tax, less mileage low insurance, I can't remember the age of when a car require not to have an annual MOT, but that would also create another nightmare of course.
Happy touring to all in the coming Year.
Hutch.

 

[otherclive]

You don't say what your car is or what caravan you may be looking at. Whilst car's have been getting lighter some vans have had their MTPLM trimmed down to make them attractive to buyers with lighter cars. I see more outfits now where the car is fitted with a roof box and there is only a couple in it. Partly this may be because as MTPLMs have come down or stayed the same, caravan payload has been reduced. Just because a van has a particular MTPLM it isn't necessary to load it up to the max weight if the car can take the balance of kit/clothes. If you have two cars could one be the tow car? There are some good heavy 4x4, or SUVs out there that have good reputations for reliability and are heavy enough to tow a heavier caravan. In particular Sorento, Santa Fe are not expensive and many are very well looked after. What total weight does your licence cover you to tow? that will also have a bearing on your choices.

 

[Hutch]

Bode , as Clive asked, what cars and Caravans, are you looking at. The older cars were heavier and at times had more torque. An example was the Vauxhall Vectra 2.0 diesel, the upgrade to the new Vectra was more powerfull but was About 100 kg lighter limiting your choice of a larger and heavier caravan.
I hope Santa brings your correct Car and Caravan.
😛

 

[colin-yorkshire]

I'm sure others will have alternative views on the subject.

yeah sort of. while the Prof quotes some valid points. it must be remembered that no one in the industry car or caravan is really interested in making things easier for the hobbyist. it is the least they care about.
car manufacturers have goals and targets to meet lighter cars more aerodynamic alternative fuels ect. while caravan manufacturers want to make their products more appealing to the buyer more equipment bigger heavier vans that cost more money to buy.
that makes for some uncomfortable home truths the holiday caravanner that used to be as the prof said in the 60's normal. the average family car was well able to tow the average sized caravan.
not any more if you want the modern lightweight frugal car forget the new caravan. likewise if your keen on doing the van thing the choice is limited and getting more so as time goes on.
unless you want to run this type of vehicle. just so you can go away in a van then you may find the occasional holiday caravan user starts to die out..
it can be done if one chooses carefully of course but for how long is anybody's guess.

 

[Martin24]

Many older vans were quite a lot lighter, certainly many family vans under 1500kg and many hovering around the 1200kg mark. My Elddis Shamal was under 1200 circa early '90's and our Dealer special Compass 524 was around the 1350kg mark early 2000's.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Colin

The most important outcome in every commercial industry is profit. Without profit, and not even just breaking even, no company can continue for long, as it needs profit to reinvest just to maintain equipment and systems, and to meet the inevitable price rises on raw materials and personnel. So it is the prime intention of every manufacture to produce items that enough people will want.

That means trying to identify your intended customer profile, design and produce product that will meet enough of there needs and desires to make them want to purchases it, meeting all the current and adaptable for known future legislation, to have enough reliability so it doesn't cost an arm and a leg in warranty repairs and to manufacture it at a price that will realise enough profit to enable the continued production of the item over time, and to fund future developments.

The key to all of this is understanding your customer base. Whilst caravanning is still only practised by a small percentage of drivers, there are enough of them along with other groups who tow trailers for car manufactures to undertake the necessary design and testing for towed load requirements. They are not obliged to do it, they could could give every model a zero towed load specification -

Edit Last sentence:

so I don't think its true to say the manufactures are not interested in caravanning. but it may not be their highest priority.

 

[Raywood]

As it stands most cars have a towing limit well over their kerb weight so I am not sure the original point is quite correct. Towing at weights in excess of the kerb weight can be dangerous so my advice is to avoid this. I agree though with most of what has been said here and as cars get lighter then caravans will have to. I have not seen the new lightweight model from Knaus as yet but it could be the start of a new trend.

 

[GeorgiePorgie]

The French cars (Renault, Peugeot & Citroen) seem to have lower towing capacities than their kerb weights, most of the "modern" ones seem to have their max towing limits set at 1,200kg1

My old 2012 Citroen C3 Picasso 1.6 HDi 115bhp kerb weight 1361kg max towing limit 1200kg, my wife's2013 C3 Picasso 1.6 HDi kerb weight 1329kg max towing limit.

Yet my present car, 2016 Skoda Superb 190ps (188bhp) DSG 4X4 kerb weight 1795kg, max towing limit 2,200kg!

My advice to the OP is to empty his present car of all extraneous "gear" fill the fuel tank to full & take it to his nearest weighbridge to get an accurate unladen weight the add 75kg then that's the "true" kerbside (unladen weight), then check the max permissible braked towing weight as stated on page to of the car's V5c to see what it actually can tow, however, as the OP appears to be a novice tower, limit the MTPLM to the recommended 85% of the car's kerb weight.
Next and probably MOST IMPORTANT, check what date you passed your driving test, as this will determine what you are Legally allowed to tow, simplified If passed test before 1997 & have B+e entitlement, then car & caravan combination can be up to 7000kg. Post 1997 with B licence the car & caravan combination CANNOT exceed 3500kg.

I'm using the dates & figures from memory, & may be slightly out! but I'm sure that the Venerable ProfJohnL will correct my errors & I hereby acknowledge his far superior knowledge!

 

[Craigyoung]

GeorgiePorgie , hi ,
Looks can be deceiving as we had a seven seater Toyota Verso 2.2 turbo diesel which I thought was a great engine & we loved the car but was limited to 13oo kg for towing which was pretty poop I thought , but It pulled our light weight Bailey's no problem but now we've upgraded -both !!

 

[ProfJohnL]

The French cars (Renault, Peugeot & Citroen) seem to have lower towing capacities than their kerb weights, most of the "modern" ones seem to have their max towing limits set at 1,200kg1

My old 2012 Citroen C3 Picasso 1.6 HDi 115bhp kerb weight 1361kg max towing limit 1200kg, my wife's2013 C3 Picasso 1.6 HDi kerb weight 1329kg max towing limit.

Yet my present car, 2016 Skoda Superb 190ps (188bhp) DSG 4X4 kerb weight 1795kg, max towing limit 2,200kg!

My advice to the OP is to empty his present car of all extraneous "gear" fill the fuel tank to full & take it to his nearest weighbridge to get an accurate unladen weight the add 75kg then that's the "true" kerbside (unladen weight), then check the max permissible braked towing weight as stated on page to of the car's V5c to see what it actually can tow, however, as the OP appears to be a novice tower, limit the MTPLM to the recommended 85% of the car's kerb weight.
Next and probably MOST IMPORTANT, check what date you passed your driving test, as this will determine what you are Legally allowed to tow, simplified If passed test before 1997 & have B+e entitlement, then car & caravan combination can be up to 7000kg. Post 1997 with B licence the car & caravan combination CANNOT exceed 3500kg.

I'm using the dates & figures from memory, & may be slightly out! but I'm sure that the Venerable ProfJohnL will correct my errors & I hereby acknowledge his far superior knowledge!

Too true I will correct it becasue there are errors in GP's reply

Lets do the licence thing first of all. There is a critical date of 1st January 1997. Drivers who passed their basic test before this date have no worries as they will have a entitlement "Be" which will cover domestic cars and caravans up to a combined MAM of 7500kg

If you passed your basic test after the critical date you will not receive BE but only Cat B, which restricts your vehicle capacities to a combined MAM not exceeding 3500kg.

The important thing here is realise that the license is not referring to measured weights but to the vehicle weight limits MAM or Maximum Authorised Mass. You cannot use a combination that has a larger MAM but only part load it. If you did you would be driving without a valid licence and your insurance may voided.

Knowing Kerb weight has little practical value. It may help to determine a towing ratio but in reality a few percent different in the ratio is not going to make big difference to the outfit. Remember the 85% is guidance not a legal requirement, so a few percent is not going to make a big difference.

The cars weight and Gross train weight are legal limits so are the caravan nose load and MTPLM It may be worth a trip to the weighbridge to confirm you are not overloaded.

 

[bode5997]

So we've ended up with a mercedes C class 2.1 so plenty of oomph