What do you want Practical Caravan to test?

[Surrey_Chris]

What's the difference between a review and an opinion?.....
Obviously the caravan owner wants to seek advice on forums and put their point across and the UK caravan industry needs to significantly raise standards so that the level of complaints is dramatically reduced. The main reason why responsble caravan forums (and magazines) can't allow the 'naming and shaming' of dealers and service providers is because there is no method of determining all of the facts outside of a law court.
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Not sure if ther is a a difference with review and opinion, but to sugest that this would be "naming and shaming" dealers is a bit harsh. If that were the case then you would be naming and shaming any brand or product to which you published a review if it were negative. I mean, you cannot say in a product review, "this manufacturer is selling a aerodynamic device which serves no purpose and therfore is a rip off" (unless you could prove it) . The same applies for dealers. The exapmple I have regards a purchase of a van a few years back, great service during the purchase, then not so good, but I bought another from them this year. A star rating based on all levels of a dealers service would not be shaming anyone. I wopuld like to see a fair rated "dealer of the year " rather than biggest advertiser of the year.

 

[Parksy]

Not sure if ther is a a difference with review and opinion, but to sugest that this would be "naming and shaming" dealers is a bit harsh. If that were the case then you would be naming and shaming any brand or product to which you published a review if it were negative. I mean, you cannot say in a product review, "this manufacturer is selling a aerodynamic device which serves no purpose and therfore is a rip off" (unless you could prove it) ............

That's my point Chris. I've lost count of the number of times that posts have been written in which allegations of poor service have been levelled against dealers which have been named in the comments without any actual proof of these allegations being shown. Because somebody writes a statement it is not necessarily guaranteed to be 100% accurate.
Neither the forum or the magazine has any method of establishing the true facts of the matter, the dealers cannot be compelled to give their version of events so the comments can't appear in connection with the name of any particular dealers.
A review of a product is normally objective, no one doing the review has been in dispute with the manufacturer so it is done from a common standpoint. Reviews of goods or caravans are done all of the time, everyone has a similar experience if they choose to buy a product. 'Reviews' of dealerships by those who have bought from them and had subsequent work done can only be entirely subjective because everybody's experience will differ.
If 'Joe Bloggs Caravans' gave great discounts, brilliant after sales service fine, let's hear about it because they deserve our custom but if someone feels let down this could be due to a number of factors which neither the forum or the magazine has any method of checking.

 

[Surrey_Chris]

Parksy,

But there is always survey and star ratings. Anyway as ever opinion differs, but I am sure there could be a way of doing it.

 

[Surfer]

Not sure if ther is a a difference with review and opinion, but to sugest that this would be "naming and shaming" dealers is a bit harsh. If that were the case then you would be naming and shaming any brand or product to which you published a review if it were negative. I mean, you cannot say in a product review, "this manufacturer is selling a aerodynamic device which serves no purpose and therfore is a rip off" (unless you could prove it) ............

That's my point Chris. I've lost count of the number of times that posts have been written in which allegations of poor service have been levelled against dealers which have been named in the comments without any actual proof of these allegations being shown. Because somebody writes a statement it is not necessarily guaranteed to be 100% accurate.

But can you prove that the posting was inaccurate or unfair to the dealer in question? Why can't the dealer be notified of the post and given the opportunity to respond like Swift do? All seems very one sided.

PS Is Nigel on holiday as he does not seem to be answering any questions or has he gone into hiding?

 

[Chris_Hyde_Cheshire.]

Hi Nigel, how about cycle carriers? i used to have the roof mounted type on my Focus estate, when I chenged it to a Cmax I got a rear mouted Thule 9705 (All singing and dancing). - It soon went on ebay.............Chris.

 

[Parksy]

That's my point Chris. I've lost count of the number of times that posts have been written in which allegations of poor service have been levelled against dealers which have been named in the comments without any actual proof of these allegations being shown. Because somebody writes a statement it is not necessarily guaranteed to be 100% accurate.

But can you prove that the posting was inaccurate or unfair to the dealer in question? Why can't the dealer be notified of the post and given the opportunity to respond like Swift do? All seems very one sided.

It's up to the person doing the complaining or 'reviewing' to be accurate and to prove fault where it exists. The forum doesn't set out to prove anything because it's outside the remit.
Even if Haymarket agreed to pay for somebody to notify a dealer every time that some sort of complaint or adverse comment which may or may not be accurate and in which they were named is written on the forum there would be no guarantee that they would try to defend themselves on a caravan forum. It would be much easier and more profitable for them to instigate legal proccedings against Haymarket.
They would stand every chance of winning which is why unfavourable reviews by forum users about named service providers is not allowed.

 

[Clive-Cardiff]

That's my point Chris. I've lost count of the number of times that posts have been written in which allegations of poor service have been levelled against dealers which have been named in the comments without any actual proof of these allegations being shown. Because somebody writes a statement it is not necessarily guaranteed to be 100% accurate.
Neither the forum or the magazine has any method of establishing the true facts of the matter, the dealers cannot be compelled to give their version of events so the comments can't appear in connection with the name of any particular dealers.
A review of a product is normally objective, no one doing the review has been in dispute with the manufacturer so it is done from a common standpoint. Reviews of goods or caravans are done all of the time, everyone has a similar experience if they choose to buy a product. 'Reviews' of dealerships by those who have bought from them and had subsequent work done can only be entirely subjective because everybody's experience will differ.
If 'Joe Bloggs Caravans' gave great discounts, brilliant after sales service fine, let's hear about it because they deserve our custom but if someone feels let down this could be due to a number of factors which neither the forum or the magazine has any method of checking.

I've heard this side of the disscussion so many times but I still can't understand why this forum is so willing to accept good opinions of goods or service but not bad.
As things stand a company that has really bad customer service will come through as being a good place to go just because one person has had a good experiance with them. This could be a the same time as a dozen complaints have been rejected by the forum because its just their opinion.
Why not reject good comments because they are not suported by evidence?

 

[Surrey_Chris]

So Nigel, what do you think ? would you be prepared to put a star rating in dealer surveys , based on sales, after sales, customer service ?

I think it will be a case of biting the hand that feeds you maybe? I am not sure you actually have to print any details of why the score is lower than the dealer would expect, and you could also pass any comments on to the dealer so they can see where they are going wrong.

 

[Parksy]

I've heard this side of the disscussion so many times but I still can't understand why this forum is so willing to accept good opinions of goods or service but not bad.
Why not reject good comments because they are not suported by evidence?

Simple answer.........
Nobody was ever sued for writing something good about someone and it's up to members to make up their own minds whether or not to believe what is written on any internet forum.
In the case of adverse comment or complaints against specific dealers there are legitimate avenues through which grievances should be pursued, a public caravan forum isn't an appropriate one.

Now I have a question or two.
Why do forum users accept the rules regarding defamatory comments of other caravan forums, none of which allow potentially libellous complaints about dealers to appear, but always question exactly the same rule when using this forum?
No other caravan forum allows 'reviews' of individual dealerships by members for the reasons stated so why should this forum be any different?

 

[JonnyG]

Not sure if ther is a a difference with review and opinion, but to sugest that this would be "naming and shaming" dealers is a bit harsh. If that were the case then you would be naming and shaming any brand or product to which you published a review if it were negative. I mean, you cannot say in a product review, "this manufacturer is selling a aerodynamic device which serves no purpose and therfore is a rip off" (unless you could prove it) ............

That's my point Chris. I've lost count of the number of times that posts have been written in which allegations of poor service have been levelled against dealers which have been named in the comments without any actual proof of these allegations being shown. Because somebody writes a statement it is not necessarily guaranteed to be 100% accurate.
Neither the forum or the magazine has any method of establishing the true facts of the matter, the dealers cannot be compelled to give their version of events so the comments can't appear in connection with the name of any particular dealers.
A review of a product is normally objective, no one doing the review has been in dispute with the manufacturer so it is done from a common standpoint. Reviews of goods or caravans are done all of the time, everyone has a similar experience if they choose to buy a product. 'Reviews' of dealerships by those who have bought from them and had subsequent work done can only be entirely subjective because everybody's experience will differ.
If 'Joe Bloggs Caravans' gave great discounts, brilliant after sales service fine, let's hear about it because they deserve our custom but if someone feels let down this could be due to a number of factors which neither the forum or the magazine has any method of checking.

I like that idea with regards to naming good dealers, after sales ect ect.
Using my twisted mind this could be used to great effect,all we have to do is make a list of all those dealer where we have experienced good services.Anyone not on the list therefore does not offer good service.
Only problem is as said earlier, some on the good dealers list might not seem to be good dealers to everyone, in that case whoever feels that a certain dealer should not be on that list could copy and past the list, and remove the not good dealer from it

And at no point would we the members or indeed the mag/forum, said or made a list criticising any dealer.........

PS just a small point certain car mags do actually mention theirs and readers experience when dealing with dealerships, they the car mags don't seem to mind too much in mentioning shabby experience that they and their readers have come across..

 

[Parksy]

If a dealer has good feedback or positive comments from several members then it's a fair indication to other members that the dealer with the positive comments can be trusted. If I was about to spend money buying a caravan I'd rather buy from a dealer which was highly regarded by forum members if possible.
There ought to be a list of trusted dealerships, it might encourage those not on it to raise their standards.
I can't speak for the magazine so I have no idea of how the Practical Caravan Dealer of the Year is chosen. It would help if we were made more aware of the criteria for this award so that potential customers would know how much faith to place on award winners.

 

[JonnyG]

If a dealer has good feedback or positive comments from several members then it's a fair indication to other members that the dealer with the positive comments can be trusted. If I was about to spend money buying a caravan I'd rather buy from a dealer which was highly regarded by forum members if possible."
how can you say its a "fair indication" if nobody can give negative comments on the same dealer?
Now how is that objective! never mind a fair indication of service! if one does not have in place a proper feedback system good and bad how can it be objective to trust in merely "good feedback " how can anyone trust a system that works like that?

PS what-car I mention them in praise because they regularly get involved in customer dispute against dealers and manufacturers, and seem to have no qualms or worries in doing so....

 

[Surrey_Chris]

Parksy,
Like the Idea of getting the criteria, I think the reason I would like to see some system of review is because of the awards. I will give an example. I bought a Nice Bailey ranger 620 /6 from a "dealer of the year". Anyway during the prurchase everything was great , handover was good and I could not fault them. After sales was a different issue, fine for Warranty work, no questions, but I rang one Saturady afternoon to get a quote for a spare wheel, got put through to the accessories dept , to be told Cant get price after 12 on a Saturday. When I asked why , they told me its the same across the motor industry. I pointed out the fact they are in the leisure industry!

Any way to cut a long story short I could of got a price if I had rang the sales department and asked for a quote on a new van with a spare wheel but not to buy one on its own.

The result was I rang a bailey dealer in Maidstone, who were very helpful said they had one in stock. I also purchased two calor lite cylinders some rock pege and a pig tail along with the spare wheel. So one dealers loss is anothers gain. But when I was looking for a new van i found them harder to deal with, they also lacked the range of display models the other had.

So you see there are varying degrees of service experience between two dealers I have used and i would score them accordingly. I think I have a balanced view. Oh the new purchase was made at dealer 1

 

[lesleystrawson]

I would like tested:
Tyre puncture prevention kits - like Ultraseal
Coolboxes
Hand held vacuum cleaners
Thank you!
Lesley

 

[Surfer]

The most common complaint on most caravan forums is "after sales" dealer service. In most cases this seems virtually non existant and people keep getting fobbed off with various excuses. Maybe an article on this based on a general survey of caravan owners would be beneficial.