at caravanning ......... I have read that experienced caravanners can tow up to 100% but how do you quantify an experienced caravanner?
What makes you experienced?
- Thread starter CaptainKangaroo
- Start date
Hello Andy,
I can't define "Experienced" in a meaningful way, but what you can tow is not quite as simple as that.
Lets start with your driving licence; The licenced categories defines the maximum mass the owner can drive, Regulations changed in 1997 and new divers are restricted. You have to take an extra test to be able to tow larger trailers.
You must also take into account the tow vehicle which may only be approved for trailers less than it's own kerb-weight, so you have to check each combination for legality.
I suppose you become experienced at working out what you are permitted to do!
I can't define "Experienced" in a meaningful way, but what you can tow is not quite as simple as that.
Lets start with your driving licence; The licenced categories defines the maximum mass the owner can drive, Regulations changed in 1997 and new divers are restricted. You have to take an extra test to be able to tow larger trailers.
You must also take into account the tow vehicle which may only be approved for trailers less than it's own kerb-weight, so you have to check each combination for legality.
I suppose you become experienced at working out what you are permitted to do!
If no one can define experienced, surely then the advice of towing 100% should not be given?
What if you are experienced but are a poor driver and have had towing accidents, should the advice still be 100% ?
What if you are experienced but are a poor driver and have had towing accidents, should the advice still be 100% ?
Andy , Caravanners can legally tow more than 100% as long as the trailer is within the maximum tow load and the train weight stated by the manufacture. Of course you would have to be either very confident in the combination or have a death wish to do so.
The 85% rule is just a figure that is quoted by all reliable sources such as the CC, it has no validity in law. This is to prevent the tail wagging the dog and it is a rule I take seriously.
The 100% figure is just like the 85% one really an advisory limit. I would guess that in all walks of life experienced means someone who has carried out the activity regularly for a number of years. I live by the coast and there is often advise that inexperienced week end sailors shouldn't put to sea in rough conditions, but to quote you how is that defined?
Unless we are to become a highly regulated society with tests and certificates for everything we do in our business and private lives then we must take responsibility for our actions.
sorry I didn't mean to ramble on just got carried away perhaps I should be. Ray
The 85% rule is just a figure that is quoted by all reliable sources such as the CC, it has no validity in law. This is to prevent the tail wagging the dog and it is a rule I take seriously.
The 100% figure is just like the 85% one really an advisory limit. I would guess that in all walks of life experienced means someone who has carried out the activity regularly for a number of years. I live by the coast and there is often advise that inexperienced week end sailors shouldn't put to sea in rough conditions, but to quote you how is that defined?
Unless we are to become a highly regulated society with tests and certificates for everything we do in our business and private lives then we must take responsibility for our actions.
sorry I didn't mean to ramble on just got carried away perhaps I should be. Ray
HGV class 1 drivers tow at over 100% every day!! I suspect, arguably, that any of us who aren't towing that regularly would be categorised as inexperienced.
That said I suppose any of us who tow their vans say 2-3 times a month could be classed as competent/experienced. Those like me who only have time to tow 3-4 round trips a year are going to be somewhat less experienced.
I've often wondered how these advisory values and the term "experienced" could be used in a civil court of law! It's all a bit ambiguous for my taste. Nevertheless, the alternative is likely to involve some measurement of competence!
That said I suppose any of us who tow their vans say 2-3 times a month could be classed as competent/experienced. Those like me who only have time to tow 3-4 round trips a year are going to be somewhat less experienced.
I've often wondered how these advisory values and the term "experienced" could be used in a civil court of law! It's all a bit ambiguous for my taste. Nevertheless, the alternative is likely to involve some measurement of competence!
So Tim how do you define a class 1 driver who drives these so called monsters every day for a living ,and also tows a caravan for pleasure 4-5 times a year?????? Tom
Take a look at the CC and CC&C magazines - 100% is not permissable with a tow car. The amount permissable is, I understand 85%. I may be wrong, but better to be wise than sorry!
Tim another answer to this regarding the 85% rule is spread your gross tonnage out over 6 axles and tnen read construction and use regulations as defeind by our glourious d o t and woe betied you if you get caught by the vehicle inspectorate ...
Ann, The 85% 'rule' and 100% 'rule' for experienced drivers are purely advisory, very sensible but they are not the law. You can legally tow up to the towing limit set by the manufacturer as long as the caravan /car combination are within the train weight set by the manufacturer.
There is no law which sets caravanners apart from any other trailer tower e.g. boat, glider, racks of canoes etc.
I personally do not advocate anybody with a caravan tows above the 85% rule, which is after all set by those with the best interest of caravanners at heart, but I'm just setting the record straight.
It is wrong to use the phrases "85% rule", because there is no penalty in law if it is broken. It is only a guideline.
I agree that 85% seems a sensible target. but there are many miles safely completed by outfits that exceeded this figure, so it is not automatically dangerous if the trailer weighs more than 85%. Weight ratio's are not the only, or most frequent, factors where towing accidents occur. There are probably just as many accidents involving caravans where the ratio is 85% or less. Speed is the most likely major contributory factor.
I agree that 85% seems a sensible target. but there are many miles safely completed by outfits that exceeded this figure, so it is not automatically dangerous if the trailer weighs more than 85%. Weight ratio's are not the only, or most frequent, factors where towing accidents occur. There are probably just as many accidents involving caravans where the ratio is 85% or less. Speed is the most likely major contributory factor.
John whilst i totally agree with you on the 85% rule i think think the sooner it becomes LAW the better come on V O S A tell us wot you think or ,,, can i be so blind to think pc mag may even get involved in this.. or have i just opened up a can of worms !!!!!!!.
I know the legislation that surrounds the HGV license is much more stringent than that that is applied to us leisure towers. I suppose that's the point of the whole thread. How do you measure experience and ability in this context without something as stringent as the HGv tests!
TOM
as 85%is only a guideline,as you would like it to be the law(sooner the better) ,have you really thought this through,the implications of both caravan and car manufacturers is enormous.as everyone keeps saying,the weight of caravans has increased over the years due to demand by the customer for better modern interiors.the average mptlm i would say now for a modern 4 berth caravan is around the 1400 kgs and probably more. that makes the car to be capable of towing near enough 1659ks that also been the minimum kerbweight of the car how many cars driven by people on this forum alone can equal or better that ratio,not many and a heeluva lot less people out there too.the modern family cary driven by the majority of people would be of no earthly use to tow,unless of course we go back to the basics and produce smaller less decorative and the bare basic interior type vans
as 85%is only a guideline,as you would like it to be the law(sooner the better) ,have you really thought this through,the implications of both caravan and car manufacturers is enormous.as everyone keeps saying,the weight of caravans has increased over the years due to demand by the customer for better modern interiors.the average mptlm i would say now for a modern 4 berth caravan is around the 1400 kgs and probably more. that makes the car to be capable of towing near enough 1659ks that also been the minimum kerbweight of the car how many cars driven by people on this forum alone can equal or better that ratio,not many and a heeluva lot less people out there too.the modern family cary driven by the majority of people would be of no earthly use to tow,unless of course we go back to the basics and produce smaller less decorative and the bare basic interior type vans
Hello Tom
The 85% figure was derived by a committee considering the issues of caravans alone, and ignoring the valid uses of trailers where 85% would be inappropriate. (Articulated lorries often operate up to at 400% and Farmers at up to 250%) so as a limit within the current structure of the regulations it would be unworkable.
Fundamentally it is the responsibility of every driver to ensure their vehicle is maintained to minimum road worthy standards, driven according to the prevailing conditions, and not to breach any applicable regulations.
Regulations already exist in the form of the driving licence which sets train and towing limits on each driver depending on their approved categories, Road traffic acts determine maximum permitted speeds, and Construction and use regulations set limits for the way an outfit is built, attached and used on the road.
Changes to the driving licence in 1997 do impose a lower towing weight limit on new drivers, and to tow heavier trailers they must now pass a second test. At least this forces some drivers to demonstrate a level of competence in handling an outfit before the new category is awarded.
It is the driver that must ensure their outfit complies with the regulations including making sure it is safe, or more accurately not unsafe, that includes stability at speed.
The 85% figure was derived by a committee considering the issues of caravans alone, and ignoring the valid uses of trailers where 85% would be inappropriate. (Articulated lorries often operate up to at 400% and Farmers at up to 250%) so as a limit within the current structure of the regulations it would be unworkable.
Fundamentally it is the responsibility of every driver to ensure their vehicle is maintained to minimum road worthy standards, driven according to the prevailing conditions, and not to breach any applicable regulations.
Regulations already exist in the form of the driving licence which sets train and towing limits on each driver depending on their approved categories, Road traffic acts determine maximum permitted speeds, and Construction and use regulations set limits for the way an outfit is built, attached and used on the road.
Changes to the driving licence in 1997 do impose a lower towing weight limit on new drivers, and to tow heavier trailers they must now pass a second test. At least this forces some drivers to demonstrate a level of competence in handling an outfit before the new category is awarded.
It is the driver that must ensure their outfit complies with the regulations including making sure it is safe, or more accurately not unsafe, that includes stability at speed.
John, I'm not sure that the towing test for the new licence shows any competence for towing a 1400 kg caravan. I often see learners on training and test and they appear to be towing small trailers.
I do not understand the call for more regulations. The number of caravans involved in accidents which involve other vehicles is very small so there dosn't appear to be a driving problem. It is a fact of life that caravans overturn and it is very hard to determine why one van out of hundreds snake in a particular spot at a particular time when it has towed thousands of miles with no problem.
Hello Ray.
I agree that the new test may leave something to be desired in its dynamics, but it does force the driver to show some level of competence to be assessed to able to pass the test.
Secondly my diatribe was in response to Tom who was calling for more regulation, I believe we have enough already and I was explaining why more is unnecessary. I agree that the number of accidents involving caravans is probably quite low compared to all types of traffic, but all accidents have a cause, and where in the case of caravans there is no primary collision or other causal factor (e.g. blow out) then instability seems to be blamed.
Thirdly, I tried to pr
Hello Ray.
I agree that the new test may leave something to be desired in its dynamics, but it does force the driver to show some level of competence to be assessed to able to pass the test.
Secondly my diatribe was in response to Tom who was calling for more regulation, I believe we have enough already and I was explaining why more is unnecessary. I agree that the number of accidents involving caravans is probably quite low compared to all types of traffic, but all accidents have a cause, and where in the case of caravans there is no primary collision or other causal factor (e.g. blow out) then instability seems to be blamed.
Thirdly, I tried to pr
I agree that the new test may leave something to be desired in its dynamics, but it does force the driver to show some level of competence to be assessed to able to pass the test.
Secondly my diatribe was in response to Tom who was calling for more regulation, I believe we have enough already and I was explaining why more is unnecessary. I agree that the number of accidents involving caravans is probably quite low compared to all types of traffic, but all accidents have a cause, and where in the case of caravans there is no primary collision or other causal factor (e.g. blow out) then instability seems to be blamed.
Thirdly, I tried to pr
I guess after nearly thirty years of accident free motoring, holding advanced motorist certificates for car, motorcycle and HGV class 1, could indicate that I'm experienced.
But even today I still learn more about driving as it is an on going learning curve for any driver.
I'm currently teaching my daughter to drive and many of you so called experienced drivers certainly show no concideration for learners today.
In an hour on the road, I could hand out a dozen tickets for driving without due care and attention, dangerous driving and speeding.
Experiece is gained through time behind the wheel and observation. To get the experience people have to practice and if they do it carefully and considerately, they then progress on to gain more knowledge of what they can do.
While on the subject of percentages of towing, 4X4 drivers can tow 200% of the kerb weightof their vehicles and how many of them think that just because they have a "disco, mitsi, etc" that they are automatically safe. I used to tow right upto the 5500Kgs gross train of a Diahatsu F70 with an Ivor Williams goods trailer and believe me, it was not for the faint hearted. You do have to think miles ahead, and I'd compare the thinking to that you would expect to do when driving on snow.
I'm afraid the DSA (driving standards agencey)still don't have a sound plan of training and varification for the motorists. Even when I passed my HGV you were tested in an empty lorry which is a totally different animal when loaded to 38 tonnes.
So it's still down to us to gain knowledge by error or good fortune, and the likes of ROSPA and the IAM to try to guide us down the safe route of motoring.
But even today I still learn more about driving as it is an on going learning curve for any driver.
I'm currently teaching my daughter to drive and many of you so called experienced drivers certainly show no concideration for learners today.
In an hour on the road, I could hand out a dozen tickets for driving without due care and attention, dangerous driving and speeding.
Experiece is gained through time behind the wheel and observation. To get the experience people have to practice and if they do it carefully and considerately, they then progress on to gain more knowledge of what they can do.
While on the subject of percentages of towing, 4X4 drivers can tow 200% of the kerb weightof their vehicles and how many of them think that just because they have a "disco, mitsi, etc" that they are automatically safe. I used to tow right upto the 5500Kgs gross train of a Diahatsu F70 with an Ivor Williams goods trailer and believe me, it was not for the faint hearted. You do have to think miles ahead, and I'd compare the thinking to that you would expect to do when driving on snow.
I'm afraid the DSA (driving standards agencey)still don't have a sound plan of training and varification for the motorists. Even when I passed my HGV you were tested in an empty lorry which is a totally different animal when loaded to 38 tonnes.
So it's still down to us to gain knowledge by error or good fortune, and the likes of ROSPA and the IAM to try to guide us down the safe route of motoring.
Hi all ,Like i said in my postung of 25 May i may have opened up a can of worms ,whilst i have also learned a few things from forum members on this subject thanks to all of you ,it is good to get a debate going and get positive replys long may it continue. Tom
I'm surprised that so much emphasis has been placed on this mythical 85% recommendation in connection with towing experience. I would associate any reference to weight ratios, whether 85%, 100% or any other value, more with due care and attention than experience. Why should anyone deny a driver who has been towing safely for years and many thousand miles the right to call himself (or herself) experienced just because he or she has never towed at over 85%? Sooner or later everybody is going to get into a critical situation some time while towing, whether due to a (hopefully) isolated oversight on one's own part or caused by another road user, and what counts is the experience to be able to react correctly and safely in such a condition, regardless of any weight ratio.
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