hi everyone, i have just purchased a sterling europa 620 twin axle yr 2007. it was going to be delivered to the caravan site and its storage compound where we would of used it for about 6 weeks of the year but would like to use it alot more so have decided to tow instead. the problem is i need to change my car now as the caravan is heavier ( laden1615 kg), has anyone got any suggestions for car to buy, or even panel van, i cant afford range rovers etc lol.
what towing car ?
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Kerb weight is important, you need to try and find a tug that has sufficient kerb weight, the general guidance if for the fully laden caravan to be no more than 85% of the kerb weight of the car. All of the cars listed by the Number-plate above should be fine for you.
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I would go for a Kia Sorento as it will have no problem handling that caravan. There are some very well looked after Sorento's with sensible mileages on them at prices well below Shogun, Disco etc, and whats more they are reliable. We had an 04 and did 70k miles without any trouble whatsoever. In around 55 or 56 reg the power went up to just over 160bhp compared to the earlier 138bhp, but even the 138bhp has oodles of torque. One thing to look out for is the rear chassis area around the spare wheel. Some cars had corrosions issues, but KIA have dealt with it well out of warranty, and any car not inspected can be taken to a Kia dealership for checking and remedial work if required.
Between £4-£7k will get a really nice example. In fact my wife has her eye on one near to us so that we can perhaps buy a larger caravan in the spring.
Between £4-£7k will get a really nice example. In fact my wife has her eye on one near to us so that we can perhaps buy a larger caravan in the spring.
If you're not going to be towing much and don't have the space or money to run a second car it's a tough choice.
I have a 2007 Sterling Elite Searcher, a little bit heavier by the looks of a quick search.
Initially we looked at Shoguns, but i struggled to find a good one to be honest.
8 out of 10 had really bad rust problems (over the rear wheel arch specifically) others had diffs on the way out, others had been absolutely trashed off-road.
After too many test drives the thought of using one of these tanks as my daily mode of transport made me miserable.
Tried a few other large 4x4's but came to the same result/conclusion.
Ended up looking for car i thought i would enjoy driving daily and would be sufficient to tow.
In the end i bought a 2007 335s coupe.
It has towed the caravan from the UK to Greece and now around Greece, i've not had any problems and on the plus side it brings a smile to my face when i drive it without the caravan attached
So for some of us it's about compromise rather than buying the biggest/heaviest car.
Not saying i'm right (or wrong) but it might be something worth thinking about as you don't NEED a big 4x4 to tow a caravan
I have a 2007 Sterling Elite Searcher, a little bit heavier by the looks of a quick search.
Initially we looked at Shoguns, but i struggled to find a good one to be honest.
8 out of 10 had really bad rust problems (over the rear wheel arch specifically) others had diffs on the way out, others had been absolutely trashed off-road.
After too many test drives the thought of using one of these tanks as my daily mode of transport made me miserable.
Tried a few other large 4x4's but came to the same result/conclusion.
Ended up looking for car i thought i would enjoy driving daily and would be sufficient to tow.
In the end i bought a 2007 335s coupe.
It has towed the caravan from the UK to Greece and now around Greece, i've not had any problems and on the plus side it brings a smile to my face when i drive it without the caravan attached
So for some of us it's about compromise rather than buying the biggest/heaviest car.
Not saying i'm right (or wrong) but it might be something worth thinking about as you don't NEED a big 4x4 to tow a caravan
You may want to look at the towing limit of the 335s coupe( i presume you didn't mean the diesel as they didn't introduce this until 2008) as the BMW 3 series coupe have a low towing limit if my memory serves me correctly is around 1700kgs?Kwaked said:If you're not going to be towing much and don't have the space or money to run a second car it's a tough choice.
I have a 2007 Sterling Elite Searcher, a little bit heavier by the looks of a quick search.
Initially we looked at Shoguns, but i struggled to find a good one to be honest.
8 out of 10 had really bad rust problems (over the rear wheel arch specifically) others had diffs on the way out, others had been absolutely trashed off-road.
After too many test drives the thought of using one of these tanks as my daily mode of transport made me miserable.
Tried a few other large 4x4's but came to the same result/conclusion.
Ended up looking for car i thought i would enjoy driving daily and would be sufficient to tow.
In the end i bought a 2007 335s coupe.
It has towed the caravan from the UK to Greece and now around Greece, i've not had any problems and on the plus side it brings a smile to my face when i drive it without the caravan attached
So for some of us it's about compromise rather than buying the biggest/heaviest car.
Not saying i'm right (or wrong) but it might be something worth thinking about as you don't NEED a big 4x4 to tow a caravan
Your van has a Maximum Technical Permissible Laden Mass (Kg) - 1790 so i think you may find you are breaking the law?
MichaelE said:
Hi Michael,
Aye sorry, slip of the finger there, it's a 335d.
Max tow limit for the car is a noggin over 1800kg
The van has a MTPLM of 1815kg
We've done thousands of miles towing, from long motorway drags to twisty mountain roads over the alps, the combo has been faultless.
I'm not saying it's a perfect for everyone, but there is absolutely no way i'd drive anything bigger on a daily basis just for the tiny percentage i tow.
Really not a fan of 4x4's, expensive to run and terrible to drive on the road, so for me personally it is a compromise i'm willing to take.
If you car has a max tow weight of 1800kg and your van is fully loaded at 1815kg then you are breaking the law? I'm afraid to say your car is not fit for the purpose of towing that caravan fully loaded.Kwaked said:MichaelE said:
Hi Michael,
Aye sorry, slip of the finger there, it's a 335d.
Max tow limit for the car is a noggin over 1800kg
The van has a MTPLM of 1815kg
We've done thousands of miles towing, from long motorway drags to twisty mountain roads over the alps, the combo has been faultless.
I'm not saying it's a perfect for everyone, but there is absolutely no way i'd drive anything bigger on a daily basis just for the tiny percentage i tow.
Really not a fan of 4x4's, expensive to run and terrible to drive on the road, so for me personally it is a compromise i'm willing to take.
Not all 4x4's are expensive to run and are terrible on the road i can assure you.
MichaelE said:
A lot of IF's there Michael
As an adult i feel i'm able to judge risks pretty well, the fact that we have towed thousands of miles without any problem backs that up.
In my experience weight distribution, running order (I.E. maintenance of car and caravan) driving style and experience are far more important than the weight you are towing.
There is no circumstance where i would ever buy a 4x4 as my daily driver, if that meant i had to buy a smaller caravan then so be it.
I've driven most of not all of the usual 4x4 choices they do not meet my driving performance criteria in any way shape of form.
We are all different, some of us have the erroneous impression that larger cars protect us more, other feel it's a status symbol, my friends wife is absolutely convinced she NEEDS a large 4x4 to pick the kids up from school (less than 1 mile away).
There is no right or wrong.
Personally i enjoy driving and having some feedback from my cars, that's my main priority for my daily transport, so i'm happy with my choices.
Right or wrong, agree or disagree you don't NEED a big 4x4 to tow most caravans, so my intention is to just give the op a different opinion to think over.
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MichaelE said:
Hello Michael,
Actually its unlikely Kwaked is breaking the law:
The towed weight limit of a car is the mass it tows and does not include the nose load which is carried by the car.
The total weight of the caravan (nose load plus axle load) must not exceed the MTPLM.
Only the axle load is towed by the car and the nose load is carried. Assuming Kwaked follows the EU directive for nose load to be at least 4% of MTPLM that would mean his car is carrying at least 72 kg leaving (1815-72) 1743kg as the towed load which is under the cars 1800+ limit.
All this assumes he has load the caravan to its full capacity, if he has under loaded then the figures would be lower anyway.
There is nothing wrong in using the MTPLM as a guide for the towed weight, and in doing so you should always be on the right side of the law, but its not the way the law works and you could be loosing some useful capacity.
However whist Kwaked has not told us, I suspect he is a more mature driver. But its still worth pointing out that the combined MAM for his outfit will exceed 3500kg, and as such he must have Cat BE on his licence to be able to drive the outfit. If he took is test before Jan 1997 he will be ok but if it was later then he would need to take the B+E extension test . Kwaked please check your licence.
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If the OP were to consider BMW for towing it's essential to ensure that the car to be purchased has all of the necessary fitments to tow without detriment to the powertrain. Some BMWs (even X5s) are capable of towing large loads but they must have the right ancillary equipment fitted before delivery from the works. To fit the equipment retrospectively is eye wateringly expensive if the car is still under warranty and you want to retain the warranty. There will be those who have towed quite successfully without the equipment being fitted, but I'm just stating the position as per BMW's own recommendations. Much will depend on what is being towed, where, and what the car's powertrain is.
Looking at your van you appear to have motor movers fitted which eat into your payload .
Your nose weight is only 75kgs and from my experience it's very difficult to adjust a twin axle to get it down to this weight without pushing item to the back of the van which makes it unstable .
Tapped your car and van in towcar info and it came back you are 34 kgs overweight not legally allow to tow !
Not me that's stating that info.
You may think you are a good judge but the law is law.a classic case until something goes wrong.
Your nose weight is only 75kgs and from my experience it's very difficult to adjust a twin axle to get it down to this weight without pushing item to the back of the van which makes it unstable .
Tapped your car and van in towcar info and it came back you are 34 kgs overweight not legally allow to tow !
Not me that's stating that info.
You may think you are a good judge but the law is law.a classic case until something goes wrong.
ProfJohn,
Great informative post.
You are correct i'm getting on a bit now (not too much but a bit :woohoo: ) so my license is from before 97, always worth checking though.
Hi Clive,
I was told this by a few dealers and specialists, the BMW "Tow Kit" is a bit of a white unicorn, the dealers that say they can get hold of the kit charge crazy prices.
From my investigations it seems for my car (2007 335d) the "tow kit" is a add on intercooler and a stronger radiator fan.
I looked into using aftermarket products as they were a fraction of the price, but figured that as we're in no rush when we're towing i will use my OBD tool to monitor air intake, engine oil and tranny oil temps.
The only time they crept up was ascending one of the alps higher, steeper roads, it didn't go high enough to concern me, but as it's a holiday we found a nice parking spot, pulled over and had a cuppa.
I've towed through a Greek summer seeing 40c ambient temps, all oil and intake temps were fine.
But then i've also been on tracks (not with the caravan ) for 20min + sessions at 40c+, the only problem then was brakes, again i just pulled into the pits, had a natter and a cuppa till they cooled off and went out again.
It can't see a scenario where the car will overheat it's fluids to the point of causing a problem, be that towing or on the track.
I can see a scenario where damage would be caused if someone tows a LOT at really pushes the time/distance between oil changes.
As i do my own spannering, i changed all the fluids after the trip (including tranny fluid and filter).
I tend to do a oil change every 3k to 5k or so and other stuff like the tranny fluid every year.
On my previous cars (all petrol) i just used whatever oil was on special offer (at the correct viscosity), so it was very little expense wise.
With the diesel there seems to be concern about the DPF life so i'm trying LL04 oil, it's a fair bit more expensive than i'm used to paying so i'm sending the old oil out for analysis, my plan is to see if 10k is a more realistic opinion.
Michael,
I can understand your concern, as i've previously stated, my intention was to give other opinions to the op rather than the usual 4x4 tank recommendations.
I used my car as an example to show that you can successfully tow a large caravan without going the 4x4 route.
I'm not saying it's a good choice for everyone, but it is another option.
As i say,i'm a responsible adult and i feel that i informed enough to make my own choices, be that mechanical knowledge and experience or driving, driving physics.
If i felt for 1 second my outfit was not safe there is absolutely no way i would tow with it, simple as that.
I can understand your insistence on the law, especially with people offering advice to new members on a public forum, personally i do not feel that my outfit is illegal.
But IF it is, i feel my experiences and knowledge of how the outfit handles through vastly different road types and weather mean that for me personally outweighs any risks of prosecution.
Genuine question.
Does anyone know if anyone has ever been prosecuted for having a caravan (lets round it up and say) 100kg (MTPLM ) over the cars maximum tow rate?
As i say, i'm not playing clever clogs here or trying to justify anyone breaking the law, i'm just curious.
Great informative post.
You are correct i'm getting on a bit now (not too much but a bit :woohoo: ) so my license is from before 97, always worth checking though.
otherclive said:
Hi Clive,
I was told this by a few dealers and specialists, the BMW "Tow Kit" is a bit of a white unicorn, the dealers that say they can get hold of the kit charge crazy prices.
From my investigations it seems for my car (2007 335d) the "tow kit" is a add on intercooler and a stronger radiator fan.
I looked into using aftermarket products as they were a fraction of the price, but figured that as we're in no rush when we're towing i will use my OBD tool to monitor air intake, engine oil and tranny oil temps.
The only time they crept up was ascending one of the alps higher, steeper roads, it didn't go high enough to concern me, but as it's a holiday we found a nice parking spot, pulled over and had a cuppa.
I've towed through a Greek summer seeing 40c ambient temps, all oil and intake temps were fine.
But then i've also been on tracks (not with the caravan
) for 20min + sessions at 40c+, the only problem then was brakes, again i just pulled into the pits, had a natter and a cuppa till they cooled off and went out again.It can't see a scenario where the car will overheat it's fluids to the point of causing a problem, be that towing or on the track.
I can see a scenario where damage would be caused if someone tows a LOT at really pushes the time/distance between oil changes.
As i do my own spannering, i changed all the fluids after the trip (including tranny fluid and filter).
I tend to do a oil change every 3k to 5k or so and other stuff like the tranny fluid every year.
On my previous cars (all petrol) i just used whatever oil was on special offer (at the correct viscosity), so it was very little expense wise.
With the diesel there seems to be concern about the DPF life so i'm trying LL04 oil, it's a fair bit more expensive than i'm used to paying so i'm sending the old oil out for analysis, my plan is to see if 10k is a more realistic opinion.
Michael,
I can understand your concern, as i've previously stated, my intention was to give other opinions to the op rather than the usual 4x4 tank recommendations.
I used my car as an example to show that you can successfully tow a large caravan without going the 4x4 route.
I'm not saying it's a good choice for everyone, but it is another option.
As i say,i'm a responsible adult and i feel that i informed enough to make my own choices, be that mechanical knowledge and experience or driving, driving physics.
If i felt for 1 second my outfit was not safe there is absolutely no way i would tow with it, simple as that.
I can understand your insistence on the law, especially with people offering advice to new members on a public forum, personally i do not feel that my outfit is illegal.
But IF it is, i feel my experiences and knowledge of how the outfit handles through vastly different road types and weather mean that for me personally outweighs any risks of prosecution.
Genuine question.
Does anyone know if anyone has ever been prosecuted for having a caravan (lets round it up and say) 100kg (MTPLM ) over the cars maximum tow rate?
As i say, i'm not playing clever clogs here or trying to justify anyone breaking the law, i'm just curious.
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MichaelE said:
I tend to find that the UK tow car matching sites are quite simplistic and on my last car (XC70) and my current car they tended to under state the kerb weight. So I have used a Dutch site called "tow car.info". It gives far more information on the Kerbweight/caravan weight ratio (85% guide), stability, and performance in hills and mountains. The site also also you to change loads between the car and caravan. It shows the cars engine performance curves and when I towed 1400kg with the well loaded XC70 D5 auto the website's information was quite accurate, as it was with the Subaru too. Both outfits were weighed at touring conditions and although its not feasible to exactly replicate the sites parameters whilst touring I found its guidance quite useful. However it was fait accompli as I already owned the respective outfits. But if I change my current van in the spring I will use the site to aid my decision making.
- Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Michael,
I have to repeatedly remind forumites that NONE and I mean none of the matching services (online or club services) can be trusted implicitly. they all rely on data bases which contain errors or omissions. The problem is you do not know which entries may be in error. Any deviation in the model and specification means the result cannot be trusted.
Their judgements are based on various assumption which may or may not match your circumstances.
If you end up in court on an over load charge and you try to use what a matching service said as your defence, it would not be taken seriously. The driver is responsible for the condition of a vehicle not a matching site.
I have to repeatedly remind forumites that NONE and I mean none of the matching services (online or club services) can be trusted implicitly. they all rely on data bases which contain errors or omissions. The problem is you do not know which entries may be in error. Any deviation in the model and specification means the result cannot be trusted.
Their judgements are based on various assumption which may or may not match your circumstances.
If you end up in court on an over load charge and you try to use what a matching service said as your defence, it would not be taken seriously. The driver is responsible for the condition of a vehicle not a matching site.
If you end up in court on an over load charge and you try to use what a matching service said as your defence, it would not be taken seriously. The driver is responsible for the condition of a vehicle not a matching site.[/quote]
Irrespective of any tow match site you can't take away the fact that van exceeds the max car tow weight
Irrespective of any tow match site you can't take away the fact that van exceeds the max car tow weight
MichaelE said:
I strongly disagree with that Michael
IF the van is fully loaded then it might exceed the cars max tow weight.
I have absolutely no idea what that means legally.
I do know that i have covered many many miles with this combo and it's been a safe stable combo.
Putting aside any illegalities which i do not condone, judging a car and caravan pairing simply by using weight alone is a massive oversimplification.
Even if we simplify things down to stability weight is only a tiny factor in that.
A higher car with more weight higher will be less stable than a lower car with it's weight low.
A car with tall high profile tyres will be less stable than a car with lower profile tyres.
A car with a 50/50 weight distribution will be more stable than a car with a higher percentage of it's weight in the front (or even rear).
Engine torque, gearing, steering response, brakes, grip level all play a MASSIVE part in how well a car tows something.
Having driven a LR Disco in high winds i can tell you a high 4x4 with a high centre of gravity would be my last choice in high winds, towing or not.
So even if you don't trust my opinion, please just consider the multitude of other factors that go into what could make a good tow car.
Again legalities aside, weight is only a tiny factor in that, it's one that's chosen by our legal system simply because it's something that's easy to check.
From the Caravan club website:
"The caravan's Maximum Technically Permitted Laden Mass (MTPLM) must not be greater than the towing car's Maximum Permissible Towing Mass (MPTW) defined by the car manufacturer."
Just saying?
"Engine torque, gearing, steering response, brakes, grip level all play a MASSIVE part in how well a car tows something. Yes they do but this could also be a reason WHY you can only tow a maximum of 1800kgs ?
"The caravan's Maximum Technically Permitted Laden Mass (MTPLM) must not be greater than the towing car's Maximum Permissible Towing Mass (MPTW) defined by the car manufacturer."
Just saying?
"Engine torque, gearing, steering response, brakes, grip level all play a MASSIVE part in how well a car tows something. Yes they do but this could also be a reason WHY you can only tow a maximum of 1800kgs ?
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MichaelE said:
Yes the figure for the Caravans MTPLM is greater than 1800kg, but Kwaked did say in his opening post that his towed weight limit was over 1800kg, but he did not give the exact figure.
But legally the MTPLM is not the towed weight of a trailer, the towed load is the load applied to the trailers wheels, and that does not include the nose load.
With regards to any overload offence, it is only an offence if the actual axle load ( measured) exceeds the vehicles limit, Consequently it is perfectly legal for a car with maximum permitted towed load of 750kg to tow an empty box trailer of MIRO 600kg even though it has an MTPLM of 2100kg.
There is nothing wrong in using the caravan MTPLM as your prefered limit but it not how the law looks at it.
I understand what you are saying , but it seems that his reply was based on what IF it is loaded fully? To start a journey not knowing if you are too heavy doesn't seem very logical to me?
And like i said to try and get a twin axle down to a 75 kgs noseweight is very difficult (its heavier than that empty) so he is also exceeding this limit on his car?
To say ive been driving for years and ill be the judge to decide if my unit is legal or not it is the law is like saying i drive above the speed limit but its ok as im experienced and i know i can stop in time? The law is there for a reason im afraid?
To recommend a towcar which is borderline legal is not sound advice?
Also an interesting article was a guy who was involved in an accident and because his van exceeded his max tow weight his insurance was nullified?
And like i said to try and get a twin axle down to a 75 kgs noseweight is very difficult (its heavier than that empty) so he is also exceeding this limit on his car?
To say ive been driving for years and ill be the judge to decide if my unit is legal or not it is the law is like saying i drive above the speed limit but its ok as im experienced and i know i can stop in time? The law is there for a reason im afraid?
To recommend a towcar which is borderline legal is not sound advice?
Also an interesting article was a guy who was involved in an accident and because his van exceeded his max tow weight his insurance was nullified?
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MichaelE said:
Whilst MTPLM is a useful figure to use when matching car to its caravan its not absolute, in as Prof says axle loads are the key legal figure. Many makers artificially keep MTPLM low in order to attract buyers of new caravans who may have lower kerb weight cars. The penalty is that payload is compromised. Whilst in fact for some vans the MTPLM can be subsequently raised by the caravan maker for a small fee. Look at Baileys Pursuit 430/4 which can have its MTPLM increased to 1300kg a 70KG+ increase. Similarly several other in Baileys range too. There are no physical change to the chassis/axle as the margins are already built in.
Re the old chestnut of noseweight. Having high noseweight when empty is not uncommon. My small Trigano has a noseweight of 80kg empty, and a caravan we are looking at, Olympus 464 has an ex works noseweight of 88kg. So it's necessary to check the ex works noseweight and then manage your load distribution within the caravan to bring noseweight in line with the caravan/car limiting load.
Whilst MTPLM is a useful figure to use when matching car to its caravan its not absolute, in as Prof says axle loads are the key legal figure. Many makers artificially keep MTPLM low in order to attract buyers of new caravans who may have lower kerb weight cars. The penalty is that payload is compromised. Whilst in fact for some vans the MTPLM can be subsequently raised by the caravan maker for a small fee. Look at Baileys Pursuit 430/4 which can have its MTPLM increased to 1300kg a 70KG+ increase. Similarly several other in Baileys range too. There are no physical change to the chassis/axle as the margins are already built in.
You are referring to the caravan , but the issue is the cars maximum tow weight , surely you dont want to plate the caravan to make it heavier?
You are referring to the caravan , but the issue is the cars maximum tow weight , surely you dont want to plate the caravan to make it heavier?
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