What towing combination can I drive on B license?

[LWCARAB]

Hello,

I'm new to the forum and new to caravanning (in the sense of towing myself). Apologies if this is the wrong group to post in but I'm looking for some clarification of what combination of tow car and caravan I can drive with my B license (Past test in 2005).

So first of all my understanding of the rules is that I can tow a caravan where the unladen weight of the caravan plus the unladen weight of the car does not exceed 3.5 tons and the weight of the caravan does not exceed the unladen weight of the car. First of all does this mean unladen weight or curb weight of the car as the 2 are different? Curb weight includes 75kg for driver and a full tank of fuel.

I'm due to go and see the 2 following caravans tomorrow:

- 2016 Hobby 650KFU
- 2016 Hobby 720UKFE

The weight of these is defined as "Weight in ready to travel state" and is 1,704kg for the 650 and 1,893kg for the 720.

The tow cars I am looking at are as follows:

- 2016 Seat Alhambra SE Lux 2.0 TDI 184bhp DSG (Curb Weight: 1845kg, Max Tow Weight 12%: 2200kg)
- 2016 Ford S-Max Titanium 2.0TDCI 180bhp Powershift Auto (Curb Weight: 1778kg, Max Tow Weight 12%: 2000kg)
- 2016 Ford Galaxy Titanium X 2.0TDCI 180bhp Powershift Auto (Curb Weight: 1760kg, Max Tow Weight 12%: 2000kg)

Based on this information I've come to the conclusion that I can't get the 720UKFE with a B license as it weighs more than the cars and the total weight would exceed 3.5 tons. And I could only get the 650KFU with the S-Max or the Galaxy, the total weight with the Alhambra would exceed 3.5 tons. Is this correct? Am I right to use curb weights and "Weight in ready to travel state" weights? This is all the manufacturers supply.

Also can you recommend any other caravans that have the 3 separate bedroom area design these have? The caravan would need 2 double beds and a children s bed or single bed which can ideally be closed off from the rest.

Thanks for your help,

Richard

 

[Sproket]

Sorry to say but ..... you need to take your B+E driving test before you can tow with any of your proposed vehicle combinations.

Licences held from 1 January 1997
If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary category B (car) licence, you can:
drive a vehicle up to 3,500kg MAM towing a trailer of up to 750kg MAM

tow a trailer over 750kg MAM as long as the combined MAM of the trailer and towing vehicle is no more than 3,500kg

For anything heavier you need to take a category B+E driving test.

The MTPLM for the 650KFU is 1900kg

The MTPLM for the 720UKfe is 2200kg hmy:

 

[Martin24]

I'm not going to even try and get my head around the weights issues but we have three separate sleeping areas. Fixed double at the rear, Side dinette with up to two single bunks and the lounge area at the front with the option of two singles or one double. Ours is a Bailey GT65 Turin. Bailey have had this layout in a variety of vans over the years but it's not in the 2016 ranges. The Swift group have also done this layout and still do across their ranges. For something a bit different but the same layout is the one produced by Adria.

Happy hunting

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

The weight of these is defined as "Weight in ready to travel state" and is 1,704kg for the 650 and 1,893kg for the 720.

Following on from Sprocket - "Weight in ready to travel state" is the weight when it leaves the factory, or MIRO (Mass In Running Order) to which you need to add your payload (battery, gas, food, bedding, clothes, etc) to get MTPLM (Maximum Technically Permissible Laden Mass) to get the all-up weight.

 

[LWCARAB]

The brochure states that that weight includes full tank of water, gas tank, etc...

Basically everyone who passed their test after 97 is ruled out of towing a family sized caravan on a standard license.

Has anyone taken the b+e test?

Thanks

 

[Craigyoung]

You're not ruled out driving with a family sized caravan , we are a family of four with a 7 seater Toyota verso with a 5 Berth Bailey Orion , A pull out double bed for us and three bunks for the kids the one that's in my profile picture . I have the same licence as you - and my category D bus licence but I am still only allowed to pull 3,500 kilograms as I past 3 days after they changed the law regarding the licences which really makes me cross . But if I want or we want to change our van I will have to do the extended licence test for the weight but we are happy for maybe another year or two with what we have. Never Say Never and good luck

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Richard.

You have obviously tried to do some homework on this subject but I think you have missed some important nuances of the legislation

The licence category that affects towing with domestic vehicles is Cat B. On a 2005 basic driving licence only provides you with Cat B and no extensions. Ignoring the unbraked trailers of up to 750kg, as all caravans will have brakes, then the relevant criteria are:

[ol]
[*]The individual or combined Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM) of the outfit cannot exceed 3500kg. This is not the "unladen weights" as you posted but the maximum weight the vehicle is when it is fully loaded to its limits.
[*]The MAM of the trailer must not exceed the Unladen Weight (ULW or MIRO) of the tow vehicle.

[/ol]
Curb or Kerb Weight is not officially recognised by the licensing authorities.

You should review this flowchart which is great.

http://www.ukcampsite.co.uk/chatter/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=20&TopicID=321491
Another important consideration is the License is all about maximum limits not actual weights, so you cannot drive an outfit with a combined MAM of over 3500kg even if it even if you haven't loaded fully.

Sadly you are not licenced to drive any of the outfits you have proposed.

Just a note, the limitations of the licence you were issued with remain inforce for you. You licence does not change even if they revise the categories issued with licences issued in later years. The only way you can lawfully drive any of your proposed units is if pass the B+e extension test.

There are plenty of caravanners who manage to two with normal domestic cars and keep within the Cat Licence limits. It's difficult to make suggestions as you must take into account both the tow vehicle and the trailer when assessing eligibility.

 

[Mel]

Like Martin, I will stay out of the weight issue. However you are looking ar really heavy caravans. We previously had a 2011 Elddis Avante 526 which had a rear fixed bed, a side dinette that converted to bunks and a front double made up from the sofas. Single axle. MPTLM of 1495kg.
Go on the caravanfinder website and search by layout, I am sure that you will find vans in your weight range.
Mel

 

[LWCARAB]

Thanks, I'm currently looking at options to get my B+E extension.

Just to clarify, if the MAM of the trailer can't exceed the unladen weight of the tow car, I couldn't tow any of the above caravans with the cars I'm looking at?

 

[LWCARAB]

I can't find anything else that has a layout that really works for us, the 650 KFU is perfect, layout below:

It means we can put our 2 year old daughter down at the back and close the door (proper wooden sliding door) and not have to disturb her again, myself and my wife can then use the fixed bed and close ourselves off from the seating area bed where the grandparents will sleep. I've not seen anything else like this on British caravans, the single/kids bunk beds always seem to be over the axle opposite the kitchen area with a curtain to close them off at best.

As for the weight, I agree it's heavier than most British caravans however I strongly believe that this is increase due the the additional insulation in German caravans meaning they can be used in the winter which is what we want. I spent a lot of time in my childhood at my parents "static caravan" in the black forest (Germany) in Tabberts or Eriba's and they are warm and dry no matter what the weather throws at them. The Germans wouldn't consider Hobby's quite as good as those but not too far behind.

Apologies for all my cluelessness on the license front, I passed my test whilst living in France where these limits weren't an issue which is why I've driven with caravans and big trailers before. I just seem to have lost the entitlement but switching my license to a UK one.

Thanks.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

that is correct, on two counts, a, because the van would have to be a heavy one in order to be above the tow vehicles MIRO as it is the MTPLM that counts.
and 2. if the van was that big, the car needed to tow one would have a high gross vehicle weight, if you like a Double whammy, as the combined MAM of the car and van would be above 3500kg.
the legislation like it or not is to stop drivers with ordinary car licences towing heavy trailers, of any kind a cararvan is just a trailer after all.

 

[Raywood]

I agree the German caravans are probably better built but the weight of the ones you quote are just too high for your licence. The layout you are looking at requires a very long caravan and even Lunar who manufacture lightweight caravans would never get that layout down to a weight you could work with.
I think most of us have to compromise to a greater or lesser extent on the caravan we buy, certainly we did having a company car with a fairly low towing limit and three children. Basically we found layouts that were within the cars towing capacity and once bought we found they worked. If you want a German caravan there are some from Hobby which might suit you and would be workable with your licence but I do think the best answer is the B+E licence.
You should however also look at the comparative weight of the caravan and tow car. Under no circumstances should you tow with a kerb weight car lighter than the caravan. The towing guide suggests that novice caravanners should not exceed 85% of the kerb weight although going a bit above that should not be a problem.
I would suggest that you look up the advice at the bottom of the home page on the Caravan Club website at http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/ which you should find helpful.

 

[LWCARAB]

Thanks Ray. I've settled on the fact that I need to upgrade my license to B+E, now just trying to find somewhere that offers weekend tuition...

 

[Hutch]

Good luck with getting your B +E, your choice of car and van will open up for you.
Hutch

 

[Gafferbill]

.........if LWCARAB obtains a B+E license he will still be limited to an Outfit weighing no more than 3500kgs if the caravan being towed is fitted with brakes.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

.........if LWCARAB obtains a B+E license he will still be limited to an Outfit weighing no more than 3500kgs if the caravan being towed is fitted with brakes.

Words below are from Government website, how does it relate to what you said? I read it as 'vehicle' MAM 3500 kg not 'outfit' MAM, ie 'outfit' of 7000 kg for newbies after 19/1/2013.

Category B+E

You can drive a vehicle with a MAM of 3,500kg with a trailer.

The size of the trailer depends on when you passed your test. If you passed your test:

before 19 January 2013 you can tow any size trailer
on or after 19 January 2013 you can tow a trailer with a MAM of up to 3,500kg

 

[ProfJohnL]

Woodlands Camper quotes the Gov't website, which I must point out is not the actual wording of the relevant Act of parliament. In the past, part of this sites description about licence category's was fundamentally inaccurate - a matter I took up with the web master, and after the third attempt the corrections were made.

As far as I can see, the portion Woodlands has quoted now confirms what the actual act requires.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thanks, I'm currently looking at options to get my B+E extension.

Just to clarify, if the MAM of the trailer can't exceed the unladen weight of the tow car, I couldn't tow any of the above caravans with the cars I'm looking at?

Sadly on your 2005 Cat B licence that is the case.

The B+e removes the combined limit of 3500kg, but the way the clause is written, it is still the case that the trailers MTPLM must not exceed the tow vehicles unladen weight.

 

[Hutch]

I am looking at GOV. UK website and the way I am reading it , after LWCARAB, passes his B+E he will be allowed to drive a vechicle upto 3500 kgs MAM and tow a trailer upto 3500kg MAM. A total of 7000kg train weight. Of course with a lighter vechicle at depend on the max tow weight.
Let me know where I am reading it wrong.
Hutch.

 

[Gafferbill]

.........if LWCARAB obtains a B+E license he will still be limited to an Outfit weighing no more than 3500kgs if the caravan being towed is fitted with brakes.

Yes .....sorry confused myself there .....very easily done nowadays

 

[Craigyoung]

That'll open up your variety on car and van choice, good luck .

 

[Hutch]

Not as much as myself , WC, noticed not long ago my C1+E is now restricted to 8500 kg train weight down from 12, 000 kg, but my D1+ E ( mini bus with trailer is unrestricted. .
Grey cells need Grouse and water. ( highland botled of course).
Hutch.

 

[Craigyoung]

Hutch , I've my D1 bus licence category as weighing 15 tonnes yet still limited to 3500 kg , the Buses are probably longer than my car and caravan put together
and taller !

 

[ProfJohnL]

I am looking at GOV. UK website and the way I am reading it , after LWCARAB, passes his B+E he will be allowed to drive a vechicle upto 3500 kgs MAM and tow a trailer upto 3500kg MAM. A total of 7000kg train weight. Of course with a lighter vechicle at depend on the max tow weight.
Let me know where I am reading it wrong.
Hutch.

There are several different Gov't web pages and unless you quote or put the exact reference to it I'm afraid I can't comment.

 

[Hutch]

https://www.gov.uk/driving-licence-categories
Category B+E

You can drive a vehicle with a MAM of 3,500kg with a trailer.

The size of the trailer depends on when you passed your test. If you passed your test:

before 19 January 2013 you can tow any size trailer
on or after 19 January 2013 you can tow a trailer with a MAM of up to 3,500kg