What's it all about?

[DevonshireDave]

I've seen this debate rumbling on in PC for some months and have read many of the comments posted here with interest. From what I can gather, the government is looking to tax 4x4 vehicles at a much higher rate because they are not so environmentally friendly? Is that right? Well, consider this for one second.

If we could move away from burning fossil fuel in our vehicles, be it a 4x4 or not, and start using true bio fuels over night, would the government relent and drop the proposed tax? Would fuel prices reflect a drop in taxation because we had switched to environmentally friendly, less polluting fuels? NO. Why? Because this has nothing to do with the environment, and absolutley everything to do with REVENUE. If the government is so keen to help the environment, don't tax so called high polluters any more than you already are. Rather, give us a viable alternative to stick in our tanks. But then again, if they did that, we'd be back to paying tax on day light to make up their shortfall in revenue wouldn't we? Oh and for the record I don't drive a 4x4, but I am a caravanner and feel the injustice towards fellow caravanners and motorists alike. Never mind proposed taxation, why aren't we debating the ludicrous prices we are paying at the pumps?

 

[CliveV]

I agree with you Dave - but would point out that the Tax on LPG is significantly lower than that levied on Petrol & Diesel.

The government has said that this differential will be maintained for the next few years at least. I have bought LPG for c. 29p per litre at a Morrisons in Bristol. Now that brought a smile to my face.

The Governmemt "Powershift" scheme also provides grants up to 80% of the conversion cost for vehicles up to 3 years old.

As for polution an LPG powered vehicle is very clean - so much so that when I forgot to tell the MOT tester it was on LPG he thought his gas analyser had broken! So there already is a cleaner fuel available that is taxed less and grants available to convert a petrol engined vehicle.

There was a mover a little while ago where "Jo Public" would not buy petrol on certain days to make a point - quite what I am not sure. However, the latest email going round suggests that we all try to avoid the two largest Oil Companies and buy from supermarkets and the small independents such as Q8.

The idea being that this WOULD have an effect on the coffers of the two biggest companies.

I am happy to oblige as it would make little diference to me but could have a significant effect if enough of us did it.

What do you think?

 

[Viking1]

I would give it a go. But throt it was the government who put more tax on made it cost more. At one time the tax on diesel was less on petl. Then a lot of poele got diesel car to cut cost. The government stared to put more tax on diesel.

One other poit.

They got something reymored for petrol.

To make it more frendl

MARK

 

[DevonshireDave]

I agree with you Dave - but would point out that the Tax on LPG is significantly lower than that levied on Petrol & Diesel.

The government has said that this differential will be maintained for the next few years at least. I have bought LPG for c. 29p per litre at a Morrisons in Bristol. Now that brought a smile to my face.

The Governmemt "Powershift" scheme also provides grants up to 80% of the conversion cost for vehicles up to 3 years old.

As for polution an LPG powered vehicle is very clean - so much so that when I forgot to tell the MOT tester it was on LPG he thought his gas analyser had broken! So there already is a cleaner fuel available that is taxed less and grants available to convert a petrol engined vehicle.

There was a mover a little while ago where "Jo Public" would not buy petrol on certain days to make a point - quite what I am not sure. However, the latest email going round suggests that we all try to avoid the two largest Oil Companies and buy from supermarkets and the small independents such as Q8.

The idea being that this WOULD have an effect on the coffers of the two biggest companies.

I am happy to oblige as it would make little diference to me but could have a significant effect if enough of us did it.

What do you think?

Thanx 4 the reply Clive, you're dead right about tax levied on LPG, the same goes for CNG too, but alternatives are available in the form of bio diesel and bio ethanol, but the government has already conceeded that these would and do attract higher tax, I think bio diesel for instance has at present a levy of about 26p tax per litre. Neither are readily available yet, but should that switch be made, the government will not be able to drop taxation due to lost revenue. I think the proposed tax on 4x4's is just another way to generate

 

[DevonshireDave]

I would give it a go. But throt it was the government who put more tax on made it cost more. At one time the tax on diesel was less on petl. Then a lot of poele got diesel car to cut cost. The government stared to put more tax on diesel.

One other poit.

They got something reymored for petrol.

To make it more frendl

MARK

Absolutely Mark. I bought diesel because of the better fuel returns, in fact my wife and I both run diesels and diesel some years ago was cheaper but again, the governments reasoning is out of wack. They claimed diesel was more polluting thus should carry more tax levy. If that is so, how come my Octavia TDi is in the lowest car tax bracket because it's emmissions are equal to or lower than most 1 litre super minis??? It is more likely that as the popularity of diesels grew, their thinking was, as I'm sure it is with the rise in the popularity of 4x4 vehicles, "Hey- this is getting popular, lets tax it"!!!

I'd support any fuel protest so long as it was legal, and hitting the big boys to get them to bear pressure on the powers that be is a good way of doing it, but it needs to be heartfelt by every motorist in the country, they need to be passionate about it, and at the moment, it doesn't hurt enough, but it will before to long!

So me you and Clive are the crusaders for our fellow motorists/caravanners, lets have a viable alternative, and lets have it cheaper. After all, less spent on fuel could go into local tourist economies across the country, into other industries and that has to be good for Britain.

 

[Damian]

You are quite right Mark, diesel was cheape than petrol, but with so many people changing to it, the Government moved the goalposts,,,,,,again.I believe I am right that tax acconts for 80% of the price of fuel.

Lead was removed from petrol, hence unleaded, but to make it burn properly they have to add Benzine, which is far more carcinogenic than Lead ever was, so much so, that a couple of friends of mine who work at the Fawley refinery near Southampton have to have full medical health checks every 6 weeks as they come into contact with the Benzine in their work. Because of the danger from Benzine, you will find every petrol pump now has a vapour retrieval system to suck the vapour away from the filler neck and stop the person using the pump from breathing it in.

 

[CliveV]

Please do not think I do not agree with most of what is said here but it should be said that lead as an exhaust emmission hangs arround for decades and is a cumulative poison i.e. repeated exposure causes levels in the body to rise and it is highly toxic.

Benzene, being an aromatic hydrocarbon it is most certainly a problem whilst the petrol is stored in that it is carcinogenic and will vent off from the petrol. Hence why your friends need regular exposure tests - sign of a good Health & Safety team there I would suggest.

However it is burnt within the internal combustion engine to produce the "go" that we need. Whilst polutants are of course produced, at least they are not the "time bomb" that lead as an additive produced.

Finally - anyone reading my posts on LPG will know I am a fan of this fuel and most probably a real "anorak" on the subject. If any of you want to get a petrol engine to run really well consider an LPG conversion as the stuff is about 100 octane (just a little below the old 5 star petrol) and so you can get an engine tuned to perfection.

I have also bought some from Morrisons in Bristol recently for 29,9p/litre.

It also burns so cleanly (think of your gas hob compared to cooking with candles) that the oil stays clean with no damaging carbon deposits in it to grind away your engine parts.

Calorific value is a little lower than petrol so you get very slightly less mpg. But what the hell - at that price I am quids in!

Taking anorak off now - pouring another glass of wine.

 

[Viking1]

Dave & Damian

I had not finnisd.

Whot i was going to say.

That the government will move goalpost just ot get mor money off use.

One thing is if we use a fuel that is clean (like LPG ) they most ligth put more tax.

I too have a diesel car and I thing of get a secod car which will be a 4x4 becase I like them.

not to get at you.

CliveV

If lpg is good. why carnt we get a car that run just on it.

Do not think that i now the are not a lot of staions that sell it and the time it will to sort think out.Has they have had a lot of time to do this. Has the government cud push for more staions to have it.

The thing is a lot of thing that are going to save use money get lost or get bort out so we do not get to use them or they get tax a lot.

One the think is a engon that would not were out.

Have they been looking at a glass one.

This is not put to get at user.

Mark

 

[DevonshireDave]

Please do not think I do not agree with most of what is said here but it should be said that lead as an exhaust emmission hangs arround for decades and is a cumulative poison i.e. repeated exposure causes levels in the body to rise and it is highly toxic.

Benzene, being an aromatic hydrocarbon it is most certainly a problem whilst the petrol is stored in that it is carcinogenic and will vent off from the petrol. Hence why your friends need regular exposure tests - sign of a good Health & Safety team there I would suggest.

However it is burnt within the internal combustion engine to produce the "go" that we need. Whilst polutants are of course produced, at least they are not the "time bomb" that lead as an additive produced.

Finally - anyone reading my posts on LPG will know I am a fan of this fuel and most probably a real "anorak" on the subject. If any of you want to get a petrol engine to run really well consider an LPG conversion as the stuff is about 100 octane (just a little below the old 5 star petrol) and so you can get an engine tuned to perfection.

I have also bought some from Morrisons in Bristol recently for 29,9p/litre.

It also burns so cleanly (think of your gas hob compared to cooking with candles) that the oil stays clean with no damaging carbon deposits in it to grind away your engine parts.

Calorific value is a little lower than petrol so you get very slightly less mpg. But what the hell - at that price I am quids in!

Taking anorak off now - pouring another glass of wine.

I'd love to see LPG, CNG Bio diesel and Ethanol at every filling station in the UK. I can see just what a fan of LPG Clive is an good on ya mate, I wish my motor could be filled with bio diesel for much the same reasons. Far less polluting, and the engine actually gets lubed top end too by it making the engine quiter, smoother and a lot more efficient. trouble is at the moment, you can only buy Bio diesel from small outlets who expect you to take fairly big quantities, i.e around 1000 litres to make it worth while and I can't store that much. For more on Bio fuels, take a look at the Bio Power Network at http://www.bio-power.co.uk/ It makes for some interesting reading. Funny who a topic can be so fluid on here. Anyhow, I still don't agree with taxing 4x4's extra for a host of valid reasons. I do think it high time alternative fuels were readily available and at reasonable prices. I was in Arizona last year and rented a car for touring around. Regular gasoline was just around $1.99 a gallon (US) I did about a 1000 miles on about $70 which I think was about $1.85 to the pound. when I spoke to the locals and told them that petrol in the UK was typically around $5.60 equivalent, they asked how we could afford to run a car at all!!! Now what would life be like here if you could fill your car up for about

 

[CliveV]

Please do not think I do not agree with most of what is said here but it should be said that lead as an exhaust emmission hangs arround for decades and is a cumulative poison i.e. repeated exposure causes levels in the body to rise and it is highly toxic.

Benzene, being an aromatic hydrocarbon it is most certainly a problem whilst the petrol is stored in that it is carcinogenic and will vent off from the petrol. Hence why your friends need regular exposure tests - sign of a good Health & Safety team there I would suggest.

However it is burnt within the internal combustion engine to produce the "go" that we need. Whilst polutants are of course produced, at least they are not the "time bomb" that lead as an additive produced.

Finally - anyone reading my posts on LPG will know I am a fan of this fuel and most probably a real "anorak" on the subject. If any of you want to get a petrol engine to run really well consider an LPG conversion as the stuff is about 100 octane (just a little below the old 5 star petrol) and so you can get an engine tuned to perfection.

I have also bought some from Morrisons in Bristol recently for 29,9p/litre.

It also burns so cleanly (think of your gas hob compared to cooking with candles) that the oil stays clean with no damaging carbon deposits in it to grind away your engine parts.

Calorific value is a little lower than petrol so you get very slightly less mpg. But what the hell - at that price I am quids in!

Taking anorak off now - pouring another glass of wine.

Dave - agree 100% - In fact we had the same experience in Spain a few years ago (the year of the petrol protests) and our Spanish hosts asked the same question but linked more to "how can you run a business in the UK when transport costs are so high?"

Here on the south coast the transport industry staps extra tanks under the wagons and brings fuel back from the continent. Only way they can compete against continental outfits that come and work over here.

One of my sons friends who runs a rover 800 diesel he bought for