wheel came off new caravan

[Guest]

Forget all the 'bull' the dealer has had the wheels off the ground to fit Tyron bands, simple fact is that they never tightened the wheel nuts/bolts.

The dealer is at fault, they may not want to admit their fault but they must put any damage right!

If it was serious damage demand a new caravan.

All dealers should ask owners to bring a torque wrench when collecting caravans if they want to avoid liability or expect us to believe that correctly tightened wheel nuts/bolts unwind a few miles along the road.

In fact if this is so critical for safety, should caravans not come with a Torque Wrench clipped inside the door way!

 

[GrahamPonty]

Hi Ian,

Quote: It cannot reasonably be expected for a layman to check wheel nuts after 50 miles once it has left a tyre fitter dealer and it is a clause that the OFT would regard as unreasonable.

The OFT might regard this as unreasonable but I wonder what a Crown Court Judge would think being supported by a Prosecution Lawyer who would have all the facts in front of him including your caravan hand book and I think one of the questions would be "Have you read your hand book" does it or does not state on page blar blar blar!!

Quote: it is a clause that the OFT would regard as unreasonable

Can you show us evidence of this clause??

Regards

Graham (Ponty)

 

[GrahamPonty]

Euro,

Quote: In fact if this is so critical for safety, should caravans not come with a Torque Wrench clipped inside the door way!

Now thats a bloody good idea, Swift take note

Graham (Ponty)

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello John,

I am sorry to read of your experience. I hope it does not put you off towing in the near future.

I think the issue has two separate sides here.

Firstly the legal aspect of driving does place the onus on the driver of any vehicle or outfit, to ensure it is safe and in a road worthy condition when it is used on the public highway. Sadly if any prosecution is to be taken by the police for a related motoring offence it will be against the driver/owner.

But the second side here is a sale of goods matter, and that is "Was the product (caravan) fit for purpose"? It is a reasonable expectation that if a product like a caravan has been 'prepared' by a reputable dealer, that it should be free from design, material and workmanship faults when it is handed over. ( the Sale of Goods Act requires it!)

When you collect your caravan, the dealer's representative should go through it and make you aware of any safety critical points that should be attended too such as checking the wheel nuts after XX miles. They should have evidence that such point have been brought to the customer's attention at the time of handover. The simplest and most effective is a sheet signed and dated by the customer.

If the instruction is that wheel nuts should be checked for correct tightness at about XX miles after every time a wheel has been removed, then in my view the dealer must tell you rather than rely on the principal of 'it's common knowledge.' Clearly it is not universally know.

Importantly, even if this vital safety information is printed in the owner's handbook, the dealer cannot rely on that fact as being an adequate reason not brings it to the customer's specific attention. Realistically It would take to long to read the entire instruction book before you towed it away, the dealer would be unhappy, so the principal is already set that for a caravan purchase it is the normal expectation the details in the instruction book are unlikely to be read and fully understood until the new owner get the caravan home for the first time. Thus the information about the wheel nuts may not be seen until then.

The dealer must bring such safety items to your attention, because the dealer does not know how long your first journey will be from the dealership. Some people might live in Scotland but may purchase the caravan in Devon, in which case the magic mileage number may easily be exceeded.

If a wheel falls off, then clearly the caravan is not fit for purpose. If the dealer suggest that you should have checked the wheel nuts after XX miles, and because you didn't its your fault, then ask him to show the EVIDENCE that you were told informed about this safety critical matter before you towed it.

I do not know how much damage has been done, but whether it justifies a complete new caravan or just a competent repair, that may be down to what a judge decides.

You may need to get trading standards involved, as the standard of safety preparation is clearly not good,

 

[Guest]

Like I said John L - cut the 'Bull' John's need is to get this put right and the onus is on the Dealer!

You don't go to a dealer for work and then expect to run around after them to check if they have tightened the wheel nuts/bolts!

John has stated that the off side wheel was found to be loose, the only way that could happen is after the wheels came off for the work to be done the bolts were not tightened!

Usual thing is for the bolts to be put on finger or hand tight, then when the van is on the grond the bolts are torqued.

John needs at this moment to forget all the bull and hammer the dealer in to taking repsonsibility for their mistake.

When they've sorted that out John can take on board advice given here and in his manual and get himself a good torque wrench if he hasn't got one.

I must have changed hundreds of various types of vehicle wheels, sometimes using a torque wrench and some times just brute force and ignorance. I've never damaged a wheel and the only time I've had a wheel come loose is wen I put a wheel back on a jacked trailer and then forgot to tighten when it was on the ground.

I do have a torque wrench and in all my years of driving and caravanning I've never found a torqued wheel nut/bolt that once torqued down came loose and then needed torquing again.

 

[Heethers]

All if the dealer did a PDI or serviced this caravan and it was in the spec to remove the wheels to check the brakes, the dealer has a duty of care to the customer which means is Technicians that carried out the service should be competent to do so.

If not he is liable in court.

John if he still does not accept responsibility time to seek professional help, one letter from a solicitor would probably do the trick.

Nigel

 

[Lutz]

I would have thought that the onus would be on the dealer to provide documentation that the torque had been checked druing PDI. The work sheet should have included the operation and whoever carried the work out should have signed, initialed or at least ticked the job off. He would not be able to prove his innocence if he is unable to produce the work shett.

 

[bigbilly]

The last time I had tyres fitted at Kwik-Fit the fitter had another member of staff check and sign for the correct torque setting of the wheels.

Bill

 

[Guest]

"The work sheet should have included the operation and whoever carried the work out should have signed"

It took me a while to get around to replying Lutz as after that I was on the floor laughing! Most work sheets are worthless, just beacause the box has been ticked does not mean that the work has ever been done!

Between doing the job in hand and ticking the box that work has been done the mechanic could have had brain fade, been side tracked as the receptionist walked by in a short skirt, popped out for a *** break or even stopped to talk to a customer.

So many reasons why a work sheet may give no clue to what really happens, they are really only a guide to what should be done. Not what is actually done!

 

[Lutz]

You're absolutely right, Euro. If the worksheet has been marked, it doesn't guarantee that the job was actually done, but it does mean that the dealer has taken full responsiblity for all consequences.

 

[Lutz]

Even though the dealer may treat a work sheet lightly, as you suggest, Euro (and I don't doubt that that is quite often the case, too), he should be aware that it can be a legal document, especially if the wheel coming off resulted in a fatal accident. He must therefore make sure that his mechanic doesn't succumb to 'brain fade' in the process of carrying out the service.

 

[Dustydog]

Spot on Euro, cut the chit chat and get to the root.

Poor John has been badly let down by his dealer who clearly didn't do a thorough PDI nor did they have a system of check and supervision in place. As said earlier the evidence of failure is born out of the fact the o/s nuts were also loose.

It took me the best part of a day to ead my new manual, not something you do at point of collection.

Like Euro I have never known a correctly torqued nut to come undone.

John,

If the caravan is badly damaged I believe you are entitled to a brand new one. Believe me you wont be the first to succeed in this regard .

Jo-anne's done it twice!

Good luck and keep us posted.

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[GrahamPonty]

Ok we need to clarify things here. Firstly the PDI would have taken place when John, collected his new caravan on the 27th May, 5 day's later it went back for repair and tyron bands to be fitted where a job sheet would have been issued.

John, Did you receive a PDI, on the 27th May.

I think if/as the PDI had already taken place on the 27th, then this will revert to the competence of the fitter who carried out John's request to fit tyron bands to his wheels.

This is going to be a hard one to prove as I can't see any fitter sticking his hand up and saying it was my fault I forgot to tighten the nut's up.

John, let us know how things have worked out.

Regards

Graham (Ponty)

 

[paul_374410560]

there is a lot of b*****ks being spoken about its your fault you did not check your wheel nuts after 30 miles etc

NO correctly torqued wheel nut done at the dealership should come off in anyway shape or form,

THE DEALERSHIP is at fault 100% get back there and give them ****

by virtue of which way the wheel turns the nearside will undue wheel nuts which are not tightened up correctly

o/s will tighten them up( in time most will undue)

 

[Mike_5100596]

Just thought I would add a small comment to this thread. I have never been told by the dealer to check my wheel nuts after a number of miles. I admit if it is in the handbook I haven't spotted it. My wheelnuts are never torqued in front of me. I pay each service for a set of one shot nuts and upon removing the trim I find that the nuts have some sort of plastic triangular covering similar to what you can see on truck wheels. Am I supposed to remove these to check torque settings ? I too have changed many car wheels without a torque wrench and never had a wheel come loose - and have never heard of the nearside caravan wheel loosening the bolts - why do cars not do the same ?

Regards

Mike

 

[Guest]

OK. Lets be honest.

Brother had the ns wheel fall of his caravan less than two miles from his home on route to ferry.

He took the van off the jacks to torque the wheels and got interuupted when moveing to the near side wheel. Hand tight it came off!

I had the same on a twin axle trailer, my fault I took the wheels and had new tyres fitted, took the trailer off axle stands and torqued up one side and then got side tracked. Leading near side wheel over took me as I braked for a roundabout.

There is no guarantee that anyone will read a Manual. There is no difference between bolting up Car or Caravan wheels and how many torqued/tightened car wheels come undone?

This is a case of cut the Bull and Waffle and stick it straight to the dealer that they are to blame and that they must sort out the problem!

Any talk of Manuals is just side tracking the real issue of dealer failure and the dealer being liable.

I just hope John stands his ground if the dealer does not play fair!

16K of hard earned cash and he deserves and has a right to perfect service and a dealers respect!

 

[Dustydog]

Graham

You said "Ok we need to clarify things here. Firstly the PDI would have taken place when John, collected his new caravan on the 27th May, 5 day's later it went back for repair and tyron bands to be fitted where a job sheet would have been issued".

My dealer says the PDI can be caried out anything from 2 to 5 days before collection. Never on the day of collection. Not enough time. Anyway I don't see the relevance of when it was done but rather how it wasn't done.

Cutting the chase we all know the o/s nuts were also loose so clearly the dealer messed up.

In Law it is the test of reasonableness. Do we expect Bailey and Swift to hang notices in their caravans saying "our wheels fall off after 20/30 miles inless checked with a torque wrench".

Most people don't even know what a torque wrench is never mind pound foots and Newtons etc. Sorry mate this is the dealers sole problem NOT John's

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[Guest]

Car wheels do do the same Mike. A mechanic friend has had it happen when he's forgotten to tighten a wheel when working on a car(3 or 4 times over 35 years). In a car you might be lucky most times and here the wheel knocking.

Most car wheels are fitted at tyre depots with air wrench, so there is less chance of them coming undone!

 

[Chrisbee]

When wheels are removed/refitted at the truck dealer I work for the wheels are ALWAYS torqued with a calibrated torque wrench and the inspection sheet signed by the technician who did it. The vehicle is then road tested (albeit only for a couple of miles) and the nuts retorqued by a different person and again the sheet is signed to say this has been done. A sticker is then attached to the windscreen telling the driver to retorque the wheels after 50 km. When tyre companies remove/refit wheels their sticker states "check wheel nuts after 20/30 miles OR at least 30 minutes after the wheels have been refitted.

To my knowledge a wheel has never come loose in the last 30 years if this proceedure is followed. There should be no reason to check the torque again PROVIDED the wheels were checked at least 30 minutes after the first torque.

It would be interesting to know if the dealer has a traceable torque wrench calibration record.

 

[Dustydog]

Chrisbee

That's the very System of Check and Supervision that the caravan dealer is supposed to follow, ie two technicians independently torque and retorque the nuts.

As you say they shouldn't come undone.

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[john_374450306]

HELLO EVERYONE JOHN SPEAKING.

HAD A VERY CIVILIZED MEETING TODAY AT THE DEALERSHIP. BECAUSE THIS IS A NEW MODEL OF CARAVAN THEY ARE HAVING PROBLEMS GETTING COSTINGS TOGETHER. THEY HAVE PROMISED AN ANSWER BY THURSDAY..AND I BELEIVE THEM.

I TOOK THE OPORTUNITY OF PUTTING THE CASE FOR THEM TO ISSUE PDI'S COPIES TO ALL CUSTOMERS WHEN MAKING A PURCHASE OF A CARAVAN. ALSO THAT CUSTOMERS SHOULD WITNESS AND SIGN OFF WHEELS BEING TORQUED TO THE RIGHT PRESSURE. THIS SEEMS TO BE SOMETHING THAT THEY HAVE NEVER DONE. THE IDEAS OF COURSE COMING FROM YOU GUYS...THANK YOU. WILL BE IN TOUCH ON FRIDAY

 

[Dustydog]

John

Just remember the dealer will have Insurance to protect them against such a mistake, well they will if they are any good.

Without naming the firm can you give us a clue geographically where you purchased.

Good luck for friday.

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[caravanoracle]

in my experience of dealing with issue exatly like this one, the dealer is responsible for its journey from the dealership to its destination. so if the wheel comes off from leaving the dealer either 2 miles or 200 miles continous towing with no interuptions, the dealer is at fault. this has been proved in a court were the judge fined for the customer.

it would be different if you had got the caravan back home, sat there for a week, drove off and then the wheel fell off. in this case you would have to prove that the wheel nuts had not been tampered with, beyond resonable doubt, to win a case.

in most hand books it will say something like "check wheel nuts before each and every journey" in my opinion this is just in case soemone has tampered or you may have taken your winter wheels off and put your running wheels back on. it is NOT implicating that the wheel nuts may slaken or as a get out clause for a dealer.

given the facts as i see them in this case, the dealer is 100% responsible and john would deffinately win if this went to court.

 

[xtrailman]

My i make a final comment.

Both my 2009 car, and my 2004 caravan, come supplied with a tiny wheel nut wrench.

If it is so vital to secure the nuts on both the above, then why supply a tool that is clearly, NOT fit for purpose?

 

[GrahamPonty]

Hi,

This is what it say's in my hand book under Towing Code and Maintenance:

Important: Standard AL-KO caravan chassis

use M12 wheel bolts. These must always only

be tightened to the correct torque setting:

- Steel wheels 88 Nm (65 lbs/ft)

- Alloy wheels 115 Nm (85 lbs/ft)

in sequence, (i.e. North, South, East, West);

NEVER clock or anti-clockwise. ALWAYS use a

calibrated torque wrench, do not use a corner

steady brace, power or electric wrench. It is as

dangerous to overtighten wheel bolts as it is to

not tighten them sufficiently.

Important: The torque settings should be rechecked

after 50 Km.

Hope this helps

Graham (Ponty)