Concorde had a 'blow-out' following a puncture caused by running over a piece of metal that had fallen off another aircraft.
Not a wheel comong off
Not a wheel comong off
Parksy
Moderator
This discussion is getting a little bit heated. Exchanging insults between forum members solves nothing.
I can confirm that caravan dealers do read this forum and have at times threatened legal action as a result of forum comments.
This is why Tim's earlier post was edited.
Its a fact that alloy caravan wheels have been known to become loose after removal during servicing.
I can confirm that caravan dealers do read this forum and have at times threatened legal action as a result of forum comments.
This is why Tim's earlier post was edited.
Its a fact that alloy caravan wheels have been known to become loose after removal during servicing.
Thanks Parksy.
I'd also like to point out alloy wheels have been known to come loose even when no service is involved. It's a matter of common sence.
Regards
Graham (Ponty)
I'd also like to point out alloy wheels have been known to come loose even when no service is involved. It's a matter of common sence.
Regards
Graham (Ponty)
very sad that one is not allowed to view ones opinion, yet you have failed to erase others that call others muppets??? Will not be expressing ones-self on this forum again. Started as just an innocent topic that we wanted to share and was turned, unbelievably to ourselves, a slagging match. Thought this was a friendly site that we could share our thoughts, learnt different and wont be bothering again.
Parksy
Moderator
I'm sorry that you feel that way Anthony.
I don't want to delete posts, where does one draw the line?
If I trawled back through every forum topic and deleted bits here and there many discussions would fail to make any real sense and would be extremely difficult to follow.
Its very easy indeed to become hot under the collar and upset when typing away on a forum such as this.We've all done it if it's any consolation. The 'opponent' is anonymous, words and intentions can be misunderstood and needless 'arguments' can break out.
If I was to be pedantic I'd estimate that in the 'having a dig' stakes both yourself and Graham (Ponty) were drawing one each.
You were obviously stung into your reply which I removed without rancour, it just happened to be 'one step too far' on this occasion.
I'm sure that all forum members are sorry to learn of your troubles, the problem ought to be discussed fully and I'm simply attempting to keep the discussion on track, please don't take my actions personally. Your views are valuable to the forum and your original post is valid.
I don't want to delete posts, where does one draw the line?
If I trawled back through every forum topic and deleted bits here and there many discussions would fail to make any real sense and would be extremely difficult to follow.
Its very easy indeed to become hot under the collar and upset when typing away on a forum such as this.We've all done it if it's any consolation. The 'opponent' is anonymous, words and intentions can be misunderstood and needless 'arguments' can break out.
If I was to be pedantic I'd estimate that in the 'having a dig' stakes both yourself and Graham (Ponty) were drawing one each.
You were obviously stung into your reply which I removed without rancour, it just happened to be 'one step too far' on this occasion.
I'm sure that all forum members are sorry to learn of your troubles, the problem ought to be discussed fully and I'm simply attempting to keep the discussion on track, please don't take my actions personally. Your views are valuable to the forum and your original post is valid.
obviously this is new to us and felt very disturbed by your response to delete our comment, when the unnamed was pointing his finger at us!!! Think he is obviously a more valued member than us. Thanku for your reply and thanku for the unsuccessful opportunity to express our views, best wishes, Tony and his family.
I have a sneaking suspicion that people (caravan manufacturers, dealers, etc.) are fitting alloy wheels without consulting the chassis manufacturer first. It is quite possible that the design of their brake drums, wheel studs, etc. are not designed to take alloy wheels or that non-standard wheels are being used where the mating surface and that of the nuts are not the same. For example, the nuts may be conical but the wheels have a spherical mating surface. That would be formula for disaster.
In a nutshell, it seems that amateurs are at work who think that just because a wheel fits it must be suitable.
I wonder ...
When I had my tyres changed, the fitter was amazed that there is no centre-ing device fitted - both the alloys when offered up to the axle have space to move around, and are only stopped from moving on the hub by the bolts.
The fitter said that when this is the case some sort of plastic ring is usually fitted to stop this play before the wheel is secured with the bolts - and he recommended I went round to an alloy wheel specialist to get a pair.
I wonder ... If there was even the slightest dirt on the hub surface, the wheel gradually moves slightly (we're only talking a mm or two), so starting a process which leads to the bolts loosening rapdly.
When I had my tyres changed, the fitter was amazed that there is no centre-ing device fitted - both the alloys when offered up to the axle have space to move around, and are only stopped from moving on the hub by the bolts.
The fitter said that when this is the case some sort of plastic ring is usually fitted to stop this play before the wheel is secured with the bolts - and he recommended I went round to an alloy wheel specialist to get a pair.
I wonder ... If there was even the slightest dirt on the hub surface, the wheel gradually moves slightly (we're only talking a mm or two), so starting a process which leads to the bolts loosening rapdly.
In view of Timothys posting, it would be interesting to know if the wheels that have come off were centered by the hub boss or just by the bolts. May point to the reason for the failure. I am also surprised that no one has mentioned the actual torque that should be used, I know it varies between steel & alloys on a car, so would presume likewise on a Van?
I replied in the same way to a previous threat, but can I ask as a complete 'lay-woman' - Has nobody seriously asked the question "What exactly am I checking after thirty miles?" Am I checking that the mechanic did his job properly, or am I checking that after thirty miles the nuts haven't come loose? If the former then it's the dealer's fault if it wasn't done properly, and if the latter, then there is something seriously wrong with the design of the nuts/bolts which loosen after being set at the correct torque. Is the thirty miles only after a mechanic has done the job, or must they then be checked after EVERY thirty miles just in case I didn't check them properly or they have come loose again? Something can't be right here!
Assuming the original poster's caravan (2006 Bailey) is like my 2006 Bailey, there is a small but definate gap around the hub boss.
Thinking on this a bit further, if the bolts are even a fraction loose, then the whole caravan weight starts moving this wheel. Imagine the wheel stationary (say with the valve at 12 o'clock). The weight pushes down. Then the wheel moves half a turn. The weight presses down again, but because the bolts are very slightly loose, the wheel moves on the hub by 1mm. The next half turn and it goes 1mm the other way - it would not take very long for the whole wheel to come off.
Its one thing to expect a bolt to hold a wheel flat to the hub. Its another thing altogether to expect it to resist a sideways force of 750Kg (half the caravan weight).
Thinking on this a bit further, if the bolts are even a fraction loose, then the whole caravan weight starts moving this wheel. Imagine the wheel stationary (say with the valve at 12 o'clock). The weight pushes down. Then the wheel moves half a turn. The weight presses down again, but because the bolts are very slightly loose, the wheel moves on the hub by 1mm. The next half turn and it goes 1mm the other way - it would not take very long for the whole wheel to come off.
Its one thing to expect a bolt to hold a wheel flat to the hub. Its another thing altogether to expect it to resist a sideways force of 750Kg (half the caravan weight).
⇨ Val: ... then there is something seriously wrong with the design of the nuts/bolts which loosen after being set at the correct torque...
Val - I've been mulling this over ever since I noticed the two topics. As a fully qualified engineer I've been watching the polarised views. I only came into caravanning three years ago, and questioned the strange way that caravans are made (poor at resisting damp, poor at miniminising when it does happen), and people seemed to want to dismiss me for living in a fantasy land "this is how caravans are made so get out of our world". Now that Bailey have come up with a new method, suddenly it seems OK to discuss the poor standards we've had before!
The responses on these wheel problems seem to be another case to me - people may be accepting poor engineering practice because its always been done this way, and resorting purely to the manual advice to check the wheelnuts after 30 miles - that should be a precaution not a necessity!
I don't know if I've hit on the true cause or not (but its the first one I would investigate).
In the meantime, my advice would be to check your wheelnuts after 30 miles. If they are loose then I would tighten them immediately, then check them them again in another 30 miles. You can only relax when you find that they're tight when you check them.
Val - I've been mulling this over ever since I noticed the two topics. As a fully qualified engineer I've been watching the polarised views. I only came into caravanning three years ago, and questioned the strange way that caravans are made (poor at resisting damp, poor at miniminising when it does happen), and people seemed to want to dismiss me for living in a fantasy land "this is how caravans are made so get out of our world". Now that Bailey have come up with a new method, suddenly it seems OK to discuss the poor standards we've had before!
The responses on these wheel problems seem to be another case to me - people may be accepting poor engineering practice because its always been done this way, and resorting purely to the manual advice to check the wheelnuts after 30 miles - that should be a precaution not a necessity!
I don't know if I've hit on the true cause or not (but its the first one I would investigate).
In the meantime, my advice would be to check your wheelnuts after 30 miles. If they are loose then I would tighten them immediately, then check them them again in another 30 miles. You can only relax when you find that they're tight when you check them.
Should have added. If you (or whoever is servicing the caravan) make sure the hub and the back of the wheel are scrupulously clean before reassembly, I'd expect the bolts to be just fine when you check after the 30 miles.
And if I've checked them after thirty miles and they're loose - check again and then after thirty miles they're still loose tighten again, and then check again after a further thirty miles - still loose - what then? Why once tightened properly by a mechanic and then by ourselves are they coming loose at all? We could end up checking torque at every motorway services on our 1,000 mile trip to France. Surely this can't be correct - and why should my tightening them up be any different from a mechanics?
We have steel wheels anyway, and it appears not to be a problem which affects steel wheels - so fortunately our journeys to France take two days, not four or five!
We have steel wheels anyway, and it appears not to be a problem which affects steel wheels - so fortunately our journeys to France take two days, not four or five!
My Hymer was supplied with different bolts for its Alloy road wheels and steel spare. Different contact profiles; and different torque up figures, all identified and detailed in the manual.
However on trying to by some locking bolts, one supplier was offering ones that were supposedly "universal".
Speaking to other van owners it appears some van manufactures also use "universal" bolts for their alloy and steel wheels ; might a reason for the bolts loosening lay in this?
Whilst its a pain to carry 5 steel wheel bolts I feel much happier knowing that the "designer" felt differing designs were needed and implemented using them despite the hassle in doing so and getting this info into the hand book.
I by the way had to sign that I had witnessed the torque up on taking delivery and that I understood the need and required torque up value, to recheck them after the first 35 to 40 km.
As an engineer I would like to see bolts or studs with longer working lengths which are far more able to store adequate strain and thus cope with the fluctuating loads and any face to face relaxation. This is certainly a difference between my car's and caravan's wheels.
However on trying to by some locking bolts, one supplier was offering ones that were supposedly "universal".
Speaking to other van owners it appears some van manufactures also use "universal" bolts for their alloy and steel wheels ; might a reason for the bolts loosening lay in this?
Whilst its a pain to carry 5 steel wheel bolts I feel much happier knowing that the "designer" felt differing designs were needed and implemented using them despite the hassle in doing so and getting this info into the hand book.
I by the way had to sign that I had witnessed the torque up on taking delivery and that I understood the need and required torque up value, to recheck them after the first 35 to 40 km.
As an engineer I would like to see bolts or studs with longer working lengths which are far more able to store adequate strain and thus cope with the fluctuating loads and any face to face relaxation. This is certainly a difference between my car's and caravan's wheels.
our wheels are alluminium, have no location hub, no steel inserts for the bolts to tighten against, so the whole load of this heavey caravan is being taken by five short bolts, on further inspection only seven threads were actually secured into the hub. When we eventually get the guilty to admit their mistake we will scrappin our alluminium wheels and investing in steels!!!
A hub locator should not be necessary if the wheels are otherwise suitable. (A lot of cars with alloy wheels don't have hub locators, either).
The reason why the nuts should be re-torqued after a few miles is that the contact surfaces between nut and wheel set very slightly when under pressure, but this process stops once they are well and truly bedded in.
The reason why the nuts should be re-torqued after a few miles is that the contact surfaces between nut and wheel set very slightly when under pressure, but this process stops once they are well and truly bedded in.
If they came loose, I would expect any dirt trapped between the hub face and the wheel to have dropped out, so after retorguing, I'd expect them to be fine the next time you checked.
........just for the record Trucks do not have locking wheelnuts.
What you sometimes see are cheap indicator devises that assist the Truck's mechanic and the Truck's driver to carry out a quick visual check to determine whether any nut has moved.
UK legislation on Truck maintenance standards is onerous....
a wheel coming off a Truck would result in a substantial fine.
The mechanic, the driver and the licensed operator of the Truck can all be held responsible.
My view is that the driver towing the caravan would be responsible for a wheel coming off his or her caravan.
The supplier of a caravan to a buyer, or any person hired to work on a caravan which involves the removal of it's wheels, should advise that the wheel nut torque should be checked after a set number of miles.
If the wheelnuts have slackened at this stage they should be tightened and checked again at a similar mileage.
They should not need any further tightening.
What you sometimes see are cheap indicator devises that assist the Truck's mechanic and the Truck's driver to carry out a quick visual check to determine whether any nut has moved.
UK legislation on Truck maintenance standards is onerous....
a wheel coming off a Truck would result in a substantial fine.
The mechanic, the driver and the licensed operator of the Truck can all be held responsible.
My view is that the driver towing the caravan would be responsible for a wheel coming off his or her caravan.
The supplier of a caravan to a buyer, or any person hired to work on a caravan which involves the removal of it's wheels, should advise that the wheel nut torque should be checked after a set number of miles.
If the wheelnuts have slackened at this stage they should be tightened and checked again at a similar mileage.
They should not need any further tightening.
Anthony,
I'm glad you have decided to stay on the forum and post again. I know i'm old enough, big enough, and ugly enough, to forget our bit of banter last night and get on with the topic at hand.
I offer my hand and hope you accept.
Regards
Graham (Ponty)
Since last night there has been some good input to this subject, Timothy and Lutz, have come up with some good theories. My own theory is two typs of metal reacting to heat at different times ie the softer alloy metal becoming more workable than the harder steel nut, in a shorter time.
Kenneth, on another post replied to the same subject with the following:
I think you'll find this article of interest.
It does explain why you should check the wheel nuts after a service.
It's common sense and not worth risking what could be a very serious accident.
http://www.caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/articles/why_wheels_fall_off.html
Graham (Ponty)
I'm glad you have decided to stay on the forum and post again. I know i'm old enough, big enough, and ugly enough, to forget our bit of banter last night and get on with the topic at hand.
I offer my hand and hope you accept.
Regards
Graham (Ponty)
Since last night there has been some good input to this subject, Timothy and Lutz, have come up with some good theories. My own theory is two typs of metal reacting to heat at different times ie the softer alloy metal becoming more workable than the harder steel nut, in a shorter time.
Kenneth, on another post replied to the same subject with the following:
I think you'll find this article of interest.
It does explain why you should check the wheel nuts after a service.
It's common sense and not worth risking what could be a very serious accident.
http://www.caravanandmotorhomebooks.com/articles/why_wheels_fall_off.html
Graham (Ponty)
Graham (Ponty),
Thankyou for your input, it is much appreciated and due to our incident happening very recently, we are feeling very raw and never meant to take it out on yourself or anyone else on this forum and are very grateful for your response. In all reality we realise, much to our frustration, we can't prove anything. Despite all the information you have shared with us, we know, due to their bad reputation (which of course we were unaware of at the time), they are at fault for not sharing with us one of the most important things of caravaning, CHECK YOUR BOLTS!! As we have found out since, all reputable ncc service workshops make you very aware of this importance and are so concerned by the need to make you aware, they make you sign to say, U HAVE BEEN ADVISED!!! Common sense is to check tyre pressure and make sure your caravan is securely hitched to the car, oh yea and the fridge is on 12 volt, lol, to a newbie like ourselves. Had we been made aware, something we could of read in the handbook that unfortunately, due to the caravan being a gift, we never had. I do believe that, if this is such of importance should be in or on the caravan reminding one of this. Simply, a lesson we were never told about and having been in contact with a caravan expertise, should have been told, or atleast reminded, if nothing else to protect themselves and the people they work for, the customer!!!
kind regards
Anthony.
Facebook
Twitter