When are caravan manufactures going to be held accountable?

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all out there. This is a general question/subject and one that is very very close to the hearts and bank accounts of many many owners of caravans that have had inherent damp issues,body panel failures and other such continual blights with the investments that their hard earned monies and savings have been invested in.
Some of those manufacturers are History and to some extent,deserved.
Complacency and a wanton disregard for their customers and to some extent their own future is currently rife in one sector.
Just because a fault/design issue does not constitute a safety hazard or a potential loss of life or limb does not justify the total disregard that is currently prevalent in the mindset of one particular manufacturer and a continually denied existence of or ownership of an issue.
Slippery slopes are made slippier and faster by the departure of loyalty ridden customers.
Where does one go when the dealers begin to accept that there is an issue with certain of the products of ??????/???????? and stop taking them in as PX subjects and especially when the dealers themselves became victims because the caravan buyers vote with their feet instead of the their wallets.

 

[ProfJohnL]

A heartfelt posting,

As we have pointed out on many occasions, the seller is legally responsible to their customers and that's as far as we can normally pursue matters. It does seem shameful that manufacturers can hide behind that legal shield, but there it is.

Sadly Manufactures will only begin to take real notice when they see it threatening their profits or even future.

The only realistic way to bring a manufacture to book is to bring an action directly against then such as a class action, but such a course is notorious difficult to do.

Lack of trade ability in the secondhand market will not directly affect a manufacture until the buying public become savvy about the lack of a secondhand value, and begin to avoid purchasing new.

Responsible manufactures welcome customer complaints as it gives them an opportunity to evaluate their products and to catch problems before they get out of hand.

Irresponsible manufactures bury their heads in the sand.

 

[RogerL]

I regard the warranty period with a new caravan as a period to be endured, not enjoyed - a time to get all the manufacturing defects fixed which is a PITA taking it in for inspection, waiting/arguing to get approval for the work and then taking it in again for the work to be done. Over 3 decades, I've found that things rarely go wrong out of warranty - so there's little wrong that a better build standard wouldn't cure.

The big problem is experienced caravanners who've learnt just how bad the caravan industry is but keep on buying new ones!
Vanity over-rules commonsense for the majority - if that offends some contributors, so be it!

 

[seth1]

It will all come to an end.It may take 30 years,but uk caravan industry will end.It sadly is the British way,examples being the commercial vehicle sector,car sector,motorcycle sector.If you dont look after the customer somebody else will.I bought a european van in 2009 brand new,besides a cupboard door its never been touched and that was posted to me.I read storys about certain vans and i think why do people buy such rubbish.Shame.

 

[otherclive]

Tend to agree with Roger, we were planning to change our 2005 van from 2010 onwards but we liked it, and the new models were getting heavier and had things I didn't need. Plus our upgraded payload of 250kg was very useful especially as the new model payloads seemed to come down even in the revised method of defining them. Tow weight is not too much of a concern to the tow cars but i dont see the point of having a heavier van than this one So its been damp free since it had new front and rear ends in years 2 and 3. The cash saved has been utilised about twenty times over!

 

[Surfer]

It is only on forums we read of faulty caravans, but how many others are good with no issues and trhe owners happy? A big issue is that one dealership may have one ofr two of the same model and brand faulty, but another dealer may have several. It all depends on how many have been sold by each dealership. As sales are spread right across the UK, it becomes difficult to pin point issues as dealersnaturally do not correspond with one another to see if a particualr brand is a troublesome caravan. This plays right into the manufacturers hands and is good for them as they know they will have a collective action by dealers.

 

[JohnM20]

I've only had one major quality problem, thankfully, and that was a floor delaminating. It was replaced by Swift even though it was a bit out of warranty and the problem didn't stop us using the caravan until the repair could be carried out. But what happens to the poor souls that have a problem that make the 'van unusable ? We all know how long it takes for repairs to be carried out so what happens meantime ? What recompense or arrangements are made for owners so that they can carry on enjoying there hobby whilst the problem is sorted. I ask this purely out of interest.

 

[Jasperdog]

In answer to your post, I totally agree, We have just come back to caravanning after a few years break, we decided to get the best we could as we would not be able to afford another one before i retire, we opted for a Kimberley special Coachman Amara 560/4, this model had all the extras and the layout we wanted, This was a new 2012 model, Now we went to the shows, listened to other owners and owners clubs, Now this i think was a complete waste of time, I think owners will always "Hype" up their vans even if they have had issues.. Well i was shocked how bad the quality control was on this Make, I believed Coachman was a top of the range quality van, well how wrong i was, If these are the top of the range, what are the base models like, It has been steadily coming apart since we got it in March this year, I have had a couple of issues that i have been able to fix with the dealer sending me the parts, but the latest is all the doors on the lockers expanding and blowing the laminates, This i am told will be a dealer job, could take 6-8 weeks to get the parts from ITALY ... yes i said ITALY, so i was shocked that i purchased a British Caravan and that parts are made in Italy!! As you say if potential customers wise up to this manufactures will not get away with it, If i had known this i would not of been to picky on the make of van, as the second on my list was an Adria, but i just thought i would buy British to help our economy... Needless to say i will not be buying a Coachman again...

 

[emmerson]

Roger L has it spot on. Until people stop buying new vans, and tell the makers why they're not buying, the problem will continue. After all, why should they improve when they can sell all they make anyway? Vanity definately comes into it, as no-one wants to be seen in an "old" van.
Unless, of course you're like me, and proud to be seen in my 35year-old Royale,which doesn't have any problems!

 

[otherclive]

In answer to your post, I totally agree, We have just come back to caravanning after a few years break, we decided to get the best we could as we would not be able to afford another one before i retire, we opted for a Kimberley special Coachman Amara 560/4, this model had all the extras and the layout we wanted, This was a new 2012 model, Now we went to the shows, listened to other owners and owners clubs, Now this i think was a complete waste of time, I think owners will always "Hype" up their vans even if they have had issues.. Well i was shocked how bad the quality control was on this Make, I believed Coachman was a top of the range quality van, well how wrong i was, If these are the top of the range, what are the base models like, It has been steadily coming apart since we got it in March this year, I have had a couple of issues that i have been able to fix with the dealer sending me the parts, but the latest is all the doors on the lockers expanding and blowing the laminates, This i am told will be a dealer job, could take 6-8 weeks to get the parts from ITALY ... yes i said ITALY, so i was shocked that i purchased a British Caravan and that parts are made in Italy!! As you say if potential customers wise up to this manufactures will not get away with it, If i had known this i would not of been to picky on the make of van, as the second on my list was an Adria, but i just thought i would buy British to help our economy... Needless to say i will not be buying a Coachman again...

i am amazed that anyone can express such surprise (capitals) about where parts of their caravan are made. What on earth is wrong with Italy don't people realise we live in an international world. Their cars have parts sourced globally so why shouldn't caravan makers do the same. What the maker needs to ensure is a good supply chain so that replacements are available without too much delay. The chassis and hitch coupling are doubtless from Germany and I'd guess quite a few of the other bits come from Europe too. But the bodywork will be British.

 

[RogerL]

And the electronics inside the computer you posted from almost certainly made in China!
It's baffled me for a long time when people say that European caravans are better than British ones - it's not that I don't believe them, it's the fact that much of the installed equipment comes from the same source, eg Alko, Dometic, Thetford, Heki, Polyplastic, etc
There are design issues that never get resolved properly - for instance, I now have agreement from Lunar to modify, under warranty, the heating installation in my 2013 Clubman so that it complies with Alde's guidelines for installation, but I doubt that the same changes will be on the 2014 models - so they'll have the same issues.

 

[Surfer]

And the electronics inside the computer you posted from almost certainly made in China!
It's baffled me for a long time when people say that European caravans are better than British ones - it's not that I don't believe them, it's the fact that much of the installed equipment comes from the same source, eg Alko, Dometic, Thetford, Heki, Polyplastic, etc
There are design issues that never get resolved properly - for instance, I now have agreement from Lunar to modify, under warranty, the heating installation in my 2013 Clubman so that it complies with Alde's guidelines for installation, but I doubt that the same changes will be on the 2014 models - so they'll have the same issues.

Although I seem to recall you posting about it previously, I would be interested to know about this modification as during the winter we have a cold draught blowing in from the front across our feet. The caravan is due for a service next month so amy be worth us inquiring about it.

 

[Stephen1956]

Irresponsible manufactures bury their heads in the sand.

How true thats why Swift are to be applauded for putting their dirty laundry on show by running their own forum.
Its a pity that one manufacturer seems to be burying there heads in the sand with regards to cracks in the body panels that as its almost unique to this one manufacturer would point to it being either faulty design or componants.

 

[Surfer]

Irresponsible manufactures bury their heads in the sand.

How true thats why Swift are to be applauded for putting their dirty laundry on show by running their own forum.
Its a pity that one manufacturer seems to be burying there heads in the sand with regards to cracks in the body panels that as its almost unique to this one manufacturer would point to it being either faulty design or componants.

Only problem with the Swift forum is that if you post anything negative about the brand you are banned!

 

[JeffD]

I wouldn't say banned but more accurately attacked by a few trolls who feel they must have the last word

 

[Raywood]

Most people seem to accept serious faults being put right as sufficient or do n o more than complain on forums like this. We have more rights under the Sale of Goods Act and if a lot more people who have problems, pursued their claims then the cost of putting the faults right would escalate and hopfully the industry might improve, if nothing more than to cut the costs of the claims.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all again. Aplogies for my absence since posting my OP. Health issues with Ms TheTravellingRooster has resulted in reduced available time.
A particular topic covering A Dent and Cracking issue,one of many that have been started and run their course and or have been merged and or Locked on another forum has now reached a staggering number of posts (some 300+) about a problem that does not exist and is constantly and consistantly denied as being a fault/issue. That repetative denial and constant blaming on Potholes and Kerbing is despite a PDF file that is a transcript of a meeting conducted in March of 2012 under the auspices of The Caravan Club. There was an example/reference to a 15month old caravan,one caravan/example from the stables of the group that manufactures under a number of Badge Names.
Questions covering a number of subjects/issues were asked/raised during the meeting and then .........
Q.12. A member has a ******* ***** that is now 15months old. It has been used 9 times.It was then stated that..... A crease and dent on the side panel has appeared,along with cracks around the window. It is now in the workshop for repair under warranty and to have a new side wall and side support put in. Why did they not do this when the caravan was built?
A representative of some standing from the company;then replied.
A.12 ****** are aware of this fault and changes to the design have now been made.
This fault/issue and other related faults/issues have been ongoing since a major model change in approximately 2001.
The major change was the location of the entrance door. This was moved from the rear of axle/axles position to a forward of axle/axles position.
The issue is prevelant on the longer single axle and on the twin axle variants.
Despite the "Changes to the Design" it is still being flagged up on 'Post Change' caravans from the group.
There is also an On-Line petition circulating about the subject of my Openers on this forum. It covers Caravan Manufacturers and Manufacturing in general. Please look for it, and if you have ever been affected by manufacturing defects/defects caused by design failures;then please add your much valued signature.

 

[RayS]

Part of the problem appears to be that if a fault appears in soon after purchase of a new van, the retailer will try to invoke the makers warranty. This is usally a very protracted process with the purchaser left out of the loop and his/her requirements tend to be ignored.

It seems to me that one soultion would be for the makers 'warranty' to apply only AFTER the cover granted under the Sale Of Goods Act has expired, such that the retailer would be totally responsible in the first instance.

this would cause the retail/dealer group to bring pressure to bear on the manufacturers and in the extreme refuse to handle the product.
The provisions of SOGA include the retailer being responsible for collection and re-delivery costs and for the work to be carried out in a reasonable time and with mininmum inconvenience to the customer. A few test cases in favour of the customer should sharpen up the process no end.

It also seems to me that the sticker on the new caravan saying NCC Approved has little or no value, since the NCC is a trade association. i am currently asking NCC just what value their assurance has to the customer.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Ray. Picking up on your last paragraph (Copied & Pasted)

It also seems to me that the sticker on the new caravan saying NCC
Approved has little or no value, since the NCC is a trade association. i
am currently asking NCC just what value their assurance has to the
customer.
The last time that I had occasion to take The NCC to task;very politely,of course,I was told that they did not communicate with the public as they were a Trade Organisation. I reminded them that the issue that I had with them was about something that was/is published in one of their booklets and handed out freely to the public AT THE NEC.
If they were strictly a trade organisation,why were they at the NEC and entertaining questions from the public in the dedicated area,complete with tables and chairs.
I also very politely impressed/reminded them that,without the public and their support of the caravan manufactures that they would not need nor have them as their TRADE ORGANISATION,it is not Rocket Science that without purchases there would be no manufacturers and therefore no need for them and their "Trade Organisation".
I agree with you entirely that some kicking of butts needs to be done by The NCC before they are not needed at all because of a very very rapid downhill within the UK Caravan Manufacturing sector.

 

[Surfer]

A warranty does not over ride the Sale of Goods Act.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Part of the problem appears to be that if a fault appears in soon after purchase of a new van, the retailer will try to invoke the makers warranty. This is usally a very protracted process with the purchaser left out of the loop and his/her requirements tend to be ignored.

It seems to me that one soultion would be for the makers 'warranty' to apply only AFTER the cover granted under the Sale Of Goods Act has expired, such that the retailer would be totally responsible in the first instance.

this would cause the retail/dealer group to bring pressure to bear on the manufacturers and in the extreme refuse to handle the product.
The provisions of SOGA include the retailer being responsible for collection and re-delivery costs and for the work to be carried out in a reasonable time and with mininmum inconvenience to the customer. A few test cases in favour of the customer should sharpen up the process no end.

It also seems to me that the sticker on the new caravan saying NCC Approved has little or no value, since the NCC is a trade association. i am currently asking NCC just what value their assurance has to the customer.

Hello Ray,
You have made a very interesting suggestion, and I think it has considerable merit. It still seems that many consumers do not understand their rights under SoGA and dealers and manufactures exploit that ignorance potentially to the detriment of consumers.

You are also right about the NCC, The NCC sticker only denotes that the manufacturer is a fully paid up member of the NCC and they believe the caravans they make conform to the standards supported by the NCC. Whether its really a sustainable argument these days as ther are both British and European standards that apply to caravans.
If the European caravan are so much better than UK products (and I know that view is open to debate) then it suggests that the adherence to the NCC is actually holding UK manufacturers back!
The NCC has also been a lobbying organisation. In general Lobbyists are there to represent their organisations view to the legislators. In general they do more to prevent new and better standards being introduced rather than considering the benefits to consumers.

 

[xtrailman]

Sign this petion and get things changed.
In my experience they do make a difference.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/56098

 

[ProfJohnL]

It is my considered opinion that this e petition will fail to produce any change. The reason is that Government will not legislate to change the rules for just one single industry i.e. the caravan industry as a special case.

The liability of a caravan manufacturer towards the end user are no different to that of any other manufacturer of retail products.

Legislation already exists in the form of the Sale of Goods Act which sets out the principal that liability for faulty products rest fairly and squarely on the seller as the supplier within a contract. Persons or organisations outside of the contract have no rights or responsibilities to the end user.

By trying to short circuit this process where by consumers can press claims directly on manufacturers, give the intermediary businesses (caravan stockists and dealers) off the hook for failing to properly research and manage quality control/assurance for the products they buy and sell.

What consumers need to do is be far more aware of their current legal rights, and to pursue claims through SoGA. What happens at the moment is that sellers seem to have an easy ride as consumers tend not to use SoGA, and so the sellers processes are not properly honed to deal correctly with SoGA, and they do not readily advise consumers of their rights, or often try and deflect SoGA Claims sometimes by offering alternatives that are more beneficial to sellers.

The perception that Caravan dealers may be less responsive to customers, may or may not be true, but if customers were more assertive to ensure that SoGA was employed to remedy faults with caravans, the trade would have to change, and that would cause dealers to be more assertive with their suppliers and so on back through the supply chain.

An e petition to force retailers to positively advise customers of their legal rights rather than the current practice of stating that a guarantee does not diminish legal rights, may be more productive and would not be against a just a specific industry.

 

[intransient1]

Hi,
Well I have a new Lunar Venus 490/4 which I took delivery of in July 2012.
What a lemon it has turned out to be, it has spent nearly as much time at the dealership as I have had it.
Everytime we go away in it it develops another fault.
Currently there are 22 outstanding faults on the van, so I have now contacted the finance company as I have had enough.
I had already asked for the van to be replaced when it was 2 months old and was told by the dealership that we had to give them a chance to fix it, well 40+ faults later I asked again for a replacement.
The finance company want to have the van inspected which I have agreed to, but I will now stick to my guns for either a replacement or my money back.
I suppose what we really need is a magazine that is prepared to take on the issue's and help us mere customers to get the quality of product we pay for.
At this time I won't list all the faults as it would take to long.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Prof John L. I am inclined to agree with your opening statement. That said, I believe that it would be a failure on the basis of not reaching the required number of signatures for this specific industry only.
What I am not sure of is whether a petition of this nature would be applied as a generality and across all manufacturers who promote their products through a third party or whether a particular manufacturer can be or is sited or can be identified as a one specific in relationship to a petition.
I also firmly believe that there is a rather strong case in relationship to one very specific issue which is being disregarded by a number of the dealers of one specific manufacturer's products. This could be for a number of reasons but I suspect that it is because they know full-well that they are on a hiding to nothing when it comes to the real cause of the issue and getting an acceptance of liability by the manufacturer and a resolution without it affecting their own pockets.
The likely response back to the customer is to explain that the manufacturer deems it as an issue that has been created by conditions in usage. This is commonly termed as 'Wear & Tear' or alternatively as plain and simple, abuse in use.
There is also a very good case for the inclusion and therefore part and parcel of a sales agreement;for a copy of The Sale of Goods Act to be included with the sales documentation. This could be either for a caravan that is newly bought or one that is of a pre-owned nature which falls within the terms of a transferable warranty.
The copy of The Sale of Goods Act should not only be handed over,it should also be explained and confirmation sought as to the buyers understanding of their rights in law.
Picking up on your 4th paragraph. This petition is not designed for nor is it aimed at attempting to short-cut anything. It is an attempt to get manufacturers to no longer be able to hide behind consumer ignorance of The Sale of Goods Act and moreover, stand up and be accountable for the defects in design and or manufacturing processes,those of which ultimately lead to failures and the inevitable disappointments and related costs to the buyers of their products.
Once bitten with some manufacturers products and especially within the caravan manufacturing industry is a both a bitter and expensive pill to swallow.
The one particular issue,albeit with variations which is behind this attempt at a petition is well documented on another forum,it is also now spreading to other but less active forums. The issue is a very very well known one among the dealers of the brand and is now allegedly spilling over and into the 'Pre-owned Markets' of both dealers and the private sales sector.
This rather ugly issue is not an easy nor is it a reliable fix. The issue stems from flexing of the chassis and the resultant stresses imposed on the body side panels on certain variants and across the range of products/brand names of one particular manufacturer.
In conclusion. I totally agree with your closing paragraph and indeed it is in-part covered in my 5th & 6th paragraphs.
It in itself would be a first step in breaking down the wall of consumer ignorance which the manufacturers appear to be perfectly happy to allow as their shield against flack from the buying public.