When are caravan manufactures going to be held accountable?

[TheTravellingRooster]

Seth TBH I have no idea what you are talking about as we do not own a 13 year old caravan.

Hi Surfer. It is just possible but rather coincidental that my SuperSirocco is indeed a 13yr old example but it DOES HAVE a split skin. Indeed the split is currently 35mm visible. My post of Sunday 17th Nov 2013 at 2:03PM shows this very clearly.
I could be very wrong here (I will apologies in advance if that it the case) but it is possible that Seth is one of those very people that I have spoken of in one of my many replies on this forum and more recently to Prof John L.
They jump in on a topic and do not read it from the beginning or alternatively they jump in and only read and digest what they want to retain,that is often not of much use and especially when it comes to putting on a follow-up post.
My particular issue is not fixed with just a 'New Frame' being fitted internally. Yes, I have done a great deal of research into this and associated problems with caravans from this manufacturer,the problems are the effect of "Cause & Effect". The cause is an underlying issue.
The unfortunate thing about my issue is that I had absolutely no idea whatsoever of this and associated problems with caravans from this manufacturer. Indeed I have explained that in my post of Jan 2nd 2014 at 11:30 AM.

 

[Dustydog]

Well Happy New Year Travelling Rooster.

Mr Siddle's new firm made a massive design and construction error according to all the posts ,literature , articles etc , that I have read. Back on the annuls of time, all on the Internet, Siddle's new firm did carry out remedial works on caravans for those who barked loudest.

As a matter of interest does anyone know what Statute Of Limitations , if any applies on a motor vehicle product recall?

For too long , I suspect caravan manufacturers have ducked and dived to avoid their true honest legal responsibilities.

TR, I hold no hope for any restitution coming in your direction but one must hope the adverse web press may rightly or wrongly stimulate the miscreant manufacturer to look in the mirror and wonder where their own future lies.
At the very least one would hope the party concerned would at least give you , FOC, the technical data you need for a long term fix, notwithstanding the age of your unit.
Good luck.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Well Happy New Year Travelling Rooster.

Mr Siddle's new firm made a massive design and construction error according to all the posts ,literature , articles etc , that I have read. Back on the annuls of time, all on the Internet, Siddle's new firm did carry out remedial works on caravans for those who barked loudest.

As a matter of interest does anyone know what Statute Of Limitations , if any applies on a motor vehicle product recall?

For too long , I suspect caravan manufacturers have ducked and dived to avoid their true honest legal responsibilities.

TR, I hold no hope for any restitution coming in your direction but one must hope the adverse web press may rightly or wrongly stimulate the miscreant manufacturer to look in the mirror and wonder where their own future lies.
At the very least one would hope the party concerned would at least give you , FOC, the technical data you need for a long term fix, notwithstanding the age of your unit.
Good luck.

Hi Dustydog. A very Happy,Healthy & Prosperous New Year to you.
If you are a subscribing member of 'The Other Forum' please send me a PM and I will enlighten you as to Where I stand and Why I continue stand on the issue of my caravan.

 

[Parksy]

Hi Dustydog. A very Happy,Healthy & Prosperous New Year to you.
If you are a subscribing member of 'The Other Forum' please send me a PM and I will enlighten you as to Where I stand and Why I continue stand on the issue of my caravan.

Hi Travelling Rooster
Although as forum moderators Damian and myself try to act in the best interests of this forum and it's members we're not the Gestapo

You can give the name of 'The Other Forum' if you wish, indeed I'd be interested to see the full details of the position that you are in myself.
There's plenty of room on the internet for a great many caravan forums and although there have been times in the past where url links have not been allowed to forums who don't or didn't allow links to this one, any source of reliable information for caravan owners is beneficial.
I've been reading this thread and others which contain similar points and I've come to the conclusion that no matter what appears on internet forums caravan manufacturers will continue to hide behind the fact that the SOGA is applicable to the supplying dealership and not to the manufacturer.
I don't forsee any caravan manufacturer voluntarily and unilaterally altering their trading position on this issue and I believe that the only way for touring caravan owners to occupy the same position as that of motor vehicle buyers is to collectively lobby MP's who are interested in SOGA.
Legislation would appear to me to be the only way to force manufacturers to recognise that buyers expect and deserve products that are 100% fit for purpose and of merchantable quality.
Happy New Year

 

[otherclive]

Well Happy New Year Travelling Rooster.

Mr Siddle's new firm made a massive design and construction error according to all the posts ,literature , articles etc , that I have read. Back on the annuls of time, all on the Internet, Siddle's new firm did carry out remedial works on caravans for those who barked loudest.

As a matter of interest does anyone know what Statute Of Limitations , if any applies on a motor vehicle product recall?

For too long , I suspect caravan manufacturers have ducked and dived to avoid their true honest legal responsibilities.

TR, I hold no hope for any restitution coming in your direction but one must hope the adverse web press may rightly or wrongly stimulate the miscreant manufacturer to look in the mirror and wonder where their own future lies.
At the very least one would hope the party concerned would at least give you , FOC, the technical data you need for a long term fix, notwithstanding the age of your unit.
Good luck.

Caravans are not covered by any recall system other than what a dealer or manufacturers decides to implement. They aren't motor vehicles so I find it a bit puzzling why you equate them to such. Statute of Limitation doesn't apply in English Law.

 

[seth1]

Quite clearly my mistake on the name mix up.Do appoligise Surfer.
As before my opinion hasnt changed,TR after an 8 page post on a 13 year old van which incedently i posted on,on page 1,post 4,which would also seem your one of these people that you describe who only digests what they feel like,or comes half way through are you expecting?
Lets make the analogy-a car is bought second hand,over ten years old so really speaking its had its life.The door hinges fail but their part of the A pillar.(welded)Does this then mean there is a design fault with the car?Were does it end?It requires a proper repair not a world sob story via the internet.Buy yourself John wickershams caravan manual,a repair of this nature is detailed in the book.A man as capable as yourself will breeze it.Failing that buy a tube of silicon sealer and put down to experiance.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to all that are following this post and are interested enough to read more about the general background of the issue.
The 'Other Forum' is CaravanTalk (thank you Parksy) and the Elddis section within the Tourers part of the forum is the place to peruse.
The most enlighting post that encompasses the thrust of my post topic is the one that is titled below as :-Unusual Dent, Crack Beside Front Privacy Window

There are currently in excess of 400 contributions to that topic and there are plenty of others currently still on the site and there have been a few that have been totally removed.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Quite clearly my mistake on the name mix up.Do appoligise Surfer.
As before my opinion hasnt changed,TR after an 8 page post on a 13 year old van which incedently i posted on,on page 1,post 4,which would also seem your one of these people that you describe who only digests what they feel like,or comes half way through are you expecting?
Lets make the analogy-a car is bought second hand,over ten years old so really speaking its had its life.The door hinges fail but their part of the A pillar.(welded)Does this then mean there is a design fault with the car?Were does it end?It requires a proper repair not a world sob story via the internet.Buy yourself John wickershams caravan manual,a repair of this nature is detailed in the book.A man as capable as yourself will breeze it.Failing that buy a tube of silicon sealer and put down to experiance.

Hi Seth. Yes,I have read your original input on this topic but at the time. As I have previously said,I had little or no reason to doubt the quality of the 2001 SuperSirocco. It was/is a one previous owner caravan and it was put straight into storage immediately after purchase when an health issue dictated that I was going nowhere until at-least the Spring. Then the issue was discovered and by this time Discover Leisure were well and truly up-to their armpits in trouble.
It was allegedly on their 'To Do' list. The van went in for the first service in my ownership and the crack to be evaluated (not that they did not know already what it was about) and I was advised by an insider in the trade to remove it rather sooner than later. The service had been completed and I collected it,the gates were then Locked Down within a few days.
This problem is not a quick,cheap nor an easy fix. Indeed it is very likely a minimum of a couple of thousand pounds worth of a proper and long-term fix.
A cobbled-up repair/disguise is a totally different matter,and that is why I believe that it was not spotted by me when on the dealers forecourt in the first instance.

 

[seth1]

Ok then it comes as no surprise concerning the defunct Discover group.Sadly Harringtons were a good company to deal with.We bought our first Abbey from them which turned out to be a cracking caravan and gave us years of pleasure.But aside what is your plan with it now,is it going to be a total loss?

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Ok then it comes as no surprise concerning the defunct Discover group.Sadly Harringtons were a good company to deal with.We bought our first Abbey from them which turned out to be a cracking caravan and gave us years of pleasure.But aside what is your plan with it now,is it going to be a total loss?

Hi Seth. The caravan is most certainly not a total loss candidate,indeed it is still a perfectly usable example and probably would fetch about £4,500.00. Currently it is watertight and has no recorded damp. The caravan is otherwise in firstclass condition and certainly does not give way its age. It is only further spoiled by a repair in the very early days of being registered,the decals are a miss-match.

 

[otherclive]

If you like the caravan and as you say its in first class condition then even though its only worth £4.5k the cost to change to something more modern which itself may present snags is likely to be a lot more than the £2k for a repair. We have decided to keep our 2005 van as it meets our needs and costs us very little. However the money saved by not keep buying new vans has been used for other priorities, but unless something really bad happened to it we will pay for any future damp/repairs rather than buy a more expensive van. Some may think this a warped financial logic but £2kbfor future repairs is far cheaper than changing the van. As unless we went brand new the second hand warranties are pretty poor and so you'd be back to using SOGA to fight your corner.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I have been wondering why so many of these complaints were not remedied through SoGA. Initially I considered the probability professionals could not agree as to the cause which meant pursuance under SoGA was difficult, and whilst I believe that is still a likely hindrance to SoGA, I am of the opinion that end-users knowledge of their rights under SoGA were not as well know then as they are now.

A customer with the symptoms described would initially report it to their dealer, and the dealers natural reaction would be to report it back to the manufacturer under the manufacturers guarantee. This of course suits the dealer as they do not have to carry the cost of the repair.

If the manufacturer refuses to cover the repair costs, The dealer reports back to the customer, and may have been expressed in terms of 'we can't repair it free of charge'. This is factually inaccurate, because the dealer CAN (and should) repair it free of charge under SoGA which is in implicit set of rules in every retail sales contract.

Dealers are not obliged to inform customers of their rights under SoGA, but they are not allowed to missrepresent contractual obligations. If they do missrepresent then they may be guilty of fraud.

If your caravan is less than 6 years old (SoGA's limit in England & Wales) AND you have been declined a repair by the manufacturer you may still be able to make a claim under SoGA against the seller for a repair.

Now this is a long shot, and as far as know not been tested. If the symptom arose and you informed the seller before the caravans 6th anniversary of sale, but you were declined a repair by the manufacturer AND the seller told you that the repair could not be done carried out free of charge (which is factually inaccurate), then you may have a case against the seller, for obstruction, or providing false or incomplete information relating to their contractual obligations. If this is supported by the courts, then it may be that the provisions equivalent to SoGA may be extended.

But it all comes down to being able to show that one of the default conditions defined by SoGA was present at the time of sale, without that balance of evidence SoGA will fail.

 

[intransient1]

Hi Prof John,
your help on this forum has been a great help to me.
The finance company has been back in touch, they have not got anywhere with the dealership so have decided they will take the van back themselves.

Now comes the best part they have offered us the deposit plus 4 monthly payments back, bearing in mind it has taken them 5 months to sort it out.
Upon checking the diary the van has been in for a total of 5 month for waranty work, so going on their guidelines I would be entitled to 5 months payments back plus deposit.

As it has taken 5 months for them to arrive at this I feel that I should also be entitled to those 5 months on top.

Do you think this is reasonable?

Thanks intransient1

 

[Surfer]

Hi Prof John,
your help on this forum has been a great help to me.
The finance company has been back in touch, they have not got anywhere with the dealership so have decided they will take the van back themselves.
Now comes the best part they have offered us the deposit plus 4 monthly payments back, bearing in mind it has taken them 5 months to sort it out.
Upon checking the diary the van has been in for a total of 5 month for waranty work, so going on their guidelines I would be entitled to 5 months payments back plus deposit.
As it has taken 5 months for them to arrive at this I feel that I should also be entitled to those 5 months on top.
Do you think this is reasonable?
Thanks intransient1

It depends on how long you owned the caravan prior to the problems as the FH is not obliged to pay out the full value if a few years have passed since purchase. However if problems were there from day one I would expect a refund of my deposit plus all instalments as the goods were never fit for purpose from time of purchase and the faults were inherent!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello intransient,

You may have realised that the forum is not as user friendly as it used to be and paragraph breaks don't happen like they used to. My response to you is quite long, so to try and set it out in usable chunks I've added extra spaces to try and force paragraph breaks

Its some time since I last added to this thread, and I'm not sure i have the will to read the whole thread again to remind of your particular difficulties, so this reply is based on your comments of the 10 Feb.
Firstly congratulations on getting this far and at least the finance company seems to be on the ball. This is encouraging as it at least means you seem to have a sustainable case. It disappointing the dealership is not cooperating, but their negative stance is likely to work against them if you take it court.

Now to your question, You do not tell us if the Finance company have acted under SoGA or are making an exgratia offer, which is not governed by SoGA. If its the latter then you can negotiate what the offer is, BUT you could argue by making the offer they are fulfilling their responsibilities under SoGA and the consumer credit act, and should therfore comply 100% with SoGA.

Under the 1974 Consumer Credit act if pay for something costing between £100 and £30,000 on a finance package or credit card and the card issuer's equally liable if something goes wrong. (Paraphrased from:- http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/shopping/section75-protect-your-purchases )

If the seller (in this case the Finance Company) has agreed to a total refund under SoGA then you are entitled to all money back. But there is a the matter of any deposit you may have paid, and if so to whom it was paid. If you paid the deposit to the dealer, then the Finance company may have no liability for that sum, they may only have liability for the amount they have loaned you.
Secondly if the caravan has been used (in other words the fault has not prevented the goods from being used) then legitimately they can counter claim for usage.

You may need to consider taking the dealership to the Small Claims Court to recover your deposit payments.

You should also ensure the finance company stops taking repayments for the loan.

I am tempted to suggest you take the offer, but as they are apparently accepting responsibility you should be resolute and push for what is rightfully yours. A word of warning though, SoGA is about being fair, so don't try to be greedy.

 

[intransient1]

Hi Prof John,
The finance company have come back with an offer that is more than fair, full deposit, time lost in waranty work plus payments since September, then an extra month for spoiled holidays and finally £150 compendious.
I can not argue with the offer thank you once again for your advice.

 

[otherclive]

That's really good news and a satisfactory outcome. I guess the finance company will be having words with the dealership behind closed doors!

 

[intransient1]

Yes I would hope they do, and I consider that I have been lucky to get such an offer from them.
I had tried to resolve the issue with the dealership and only contacted the finance company as a last resort.
I do feel that the dealers and manufactures should be working together to try and resolve problems so it does not need to come to this.
Having worked in the motor industry I know what customer expectations are like and I expect the same from any manufacturing industry although in the caravan industry it appears that once you have received the product should you then require repairs that require parts you are on the bottom rung.
Customer service should always be at the forefront of any company, we used to be proud and say it's made in Britain but sadly that is no longer the case.