When are caravan manufactures going to be held accountable?

[xtrailman]

Epetitions do work.
I have had the benefit from signing a mazda one which eventually put me and others on the petitions list on a priority listing.
I was contacted personally by Mazda, and mazda tom tom and vodafone all got their act together to sort the live services issue, which they have for me, plus i got one years free subscription to the service.
I've also signed a petition objecting to Mp's proposed huge pay increase.

 

[Dustydog]

Travelling Rooster is one of many ****** caravan Owners who has suffered the crease in the side panel by the door and window.
Reading the number of incidences of the same failure demonstrates to me an inherent latent defect existed in the caravans at the point of manufacture and point of sale.
In fact the cure cogently demonstrates the defect was there at the start.
I agree paying by way of a bank credit loan or credit card will afford the customer the added benefit / protection under the Consumer Credit Act. This is of course in addition to SOGA protection. You are quite entitled to pursue both at the same time.
In fact with such a serious problem nothing short of a full cash refund should be requested from the parties involved.
There is also some merit in TR and others joining forces and taking out a Class Action against the various Dealers.
The Manufacturer involved should be named and shamed and stop hiding under the Dealers skirts.

 

[otherclive]

Didn't some Hymer, or Hobby vans have a similar issue a while back? If so it would be interesting to hear how their owners were dealt with.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Rooster.

I understand what this e petition is trying to achieve, but sadly its construction has been very short sighted, and it has some real limitations which I think doom it to failure.

E petitions have to be debated as presented, so as this specifically cites caravan manufacturers, it cannot then be modified to cover all consumer purchases unless an amendment is proposed in parliament, allowed and supported in the house.

But I also agree, it is unlikely to meet the required number of signatories to force the petition to be debated.

With regard to the fight that you are waging concerning buckled panels, As I have previously stated, if the fault is recognised as a fault then consumers can invoke SoGA. Mistakenly dealers cannot rely on the manufacturers opinions in such matters to resist a claim, as the manufacture has a pecuniary interest and thus their evidence or opinions should be treated as hostile and biased.

What it needs is an independent examining engineer to review any damage and to provide expert witness evidence. If the claim is upheld the seller remains liable to the consumer. It is then up to the seller to take similar action against their supplier to recover their costs etc back to the manufacture. Liability has to follow the contract trail. Incidentally It does not follow that a consumers success will automatically translate to the dealers success against their supplier, that is one of the risks of business.

What this e petition seeks to do is to remove the seller from the chain of liability. Yet they are guilty of accepting faulty products, and selling faulty products so they are as guilty as the manufacturer. Its not so much manufacturers hiding under dealers skirts, its more that Dealers do not understand their liability:- just because their supplier refuses to compensate does not mean the dealer does not have to compensate the consumer.

There is no denying that caravans are an expensive item to purchase, and it seems they do have more defects than perhaps other comparably valuable purchases, but that's what SoGA is for so use it.

I think it is impractical to include a copy of the Sale of Good Act with every sale. The volume of paperwork would be ridiculous. However I think it might be the case that a formal short form version of the Act should be on clear public display in all retail shops, and that perhaps all receipts should carry the web site address for the full chapter and verse.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Prof John L. Further to your post of earlier. I myself am not waging a fight on the basis of buckled panels albeit that is but apart of the overall and all consuming issue. The issue is more over the splitting/cracking/tearing of the aluminium skins and specifically at one location more than others. It is also more prevalent on the longer single axle caravans and the twin axle caravans but all have the entrance door forward of the axle/axles.
The need for an independent engineer would surely be the requirement of the dealers where/when a warranty is being contested by the manufacturer and only by a caravan owner where the fault is an established one and had been deemed as a design fault and or a manufacturing fault and the caravan is beyond the warranty period.
In hindsight,I do believe that your suggestion re: the Sale of Goods Act; could be in a 'Short Form and displayed in a prominent position at the dealerships and at all desks/points of sale.
Just for the record. The problem would appear to be very much caused by an issue related to flexing/twisting of the chassis. The manufacturer has used one producer of the chassis for all of the caravans for a very long time now,but they have switched to another manufacturer for one range only. That range is a reintroduced past brand name from their stables.
It,the brand name was given over to a major dealership as part of their Dealer Special range just before they ceased trading. The dust has settled and the brand name has been reborn on a different chassis to all others from that manufacturer.

 

[ProfJohnL]

.......The need for an independent engineer would surely be the requirement of the dealers where/when a warranty is being contested by the manufacturer and only by a caravan owner where the fault is an established one and had been deemed as a design fault and or a manufacturing fault and the caravan is beyond the warranty period.......

Hello Rooster,
I'm sorry if I mistakenly used word buckled, but not withstanding that technical difference, the principal of who is responsible and what action is required remains the same.

Again you make the statement that the "fault is an established one and had been deemed as a design fault and or a manufacturing fault" How robust is the evidence of a design/manufacturing fault, is it proven and is it agreed? If this is so certain, then SoGA should be a doddle to enforce. The fact that it seems some claims have failed, suggests it may not be as cut and dried as you make out.

As you should know under SoGA if a product is less than 6 months old, it is up to the seller to prove that a product has not failed so then it would be up to the seller to obtain professional evidence, But after 6 months the onus changes to the customer to obtain the necessary evidence such as an independent engineer. As I stated evidence or opinion from the manufacture must be treated as hostile as they have a vested interest in avoiding blame.

The customer has no legal interest in the relationship between the caravan dealer and their suppliers, Dealer may need their own independent engineers reports to pursue redress from their suppliers, but that is a totally independent matter to the customers claim against the seller which is what being discussed.

Whether a product is in or out of Manufacturers warranty has no bearing on liability under SoGA, they are totally separate legal entities.

 

[RayS]

If anyone complaining is a CC member I stongly recommed calling the CC legal help line as I did recently. The gentleman I spoke with was completely clued up about SOGA and other legislation which i had not heard of, and was very patient in explaing what I should and should not say in various circumstance.
Perhaps a little know Member benefit but I found it very useful indeed.

 

[intransient1]

Thanks Ray,
I will have to give them a call.
Just a quick one,I called Lunar direct about my van and they refused to take the call, everything has to go through the dealership.
It seems a little like we got your dosh now go away and if you need parts during warranty we will keep you waiting for months and months because we can.

 

[famicon]

My experience after buying a new Bailey Unicorn series 2 Valencia has been an eye opener. It is not apparent when you buy one that this caravan does not have any space heating in the end washroom. It has a very small towel warmer but this is not designed to heat the washroom. I have confirmed this with Alde direct. On the Caravan Talk Bailey forum there are numerous postings from owners who have spent hundreds of pound paying Alde to upgrade the washroom heating. I have contacted Bailey about this as have many other customers. All Bailey will give is a stock reply referring to the van passing the NCC thermal standards. When I asked if these tests had been carried out with the washroom door open or closed they refused to comment. They have also fitted a small circular shower in the washroomwhich results in a lot of dead space in the corner of the washroom. Bailey NEVER respond or contribute to owners forums and never admit the "fully specified" central heating does not include the washroom. Not very good for a £20000 caravan. What annoys me most, and is a major reason why manufacturers like Bailey get away with ignoring customers is the continued servility of the caravan magazines, caravan finder tv, the caravan channel and the caravan club when it comes to the major manufacturers. I have never seen or heard anything even close to a genuinely objective critical review of a new caravan. Instead we get the usual bland superficial cliches - nice upholstery, lockers close with a satisfying clunk, lovely graphics etc etc. In the case of my Bailey Unicorn not one so called review has mentioned the fact that the top of the range caravan has no space heating in the washroom. Non of them have questioned how a caravan that doesn't have an onboard water tank can be marketed as an "all season tourer" Again when I asked Bailey how a caravan where the only source of water is from an external barrel or tap can enable running water to be available following a below freezing night when it hasn't got an onboard tank. Bailey refused again to answer that once more simply referring to its thermal insulation. Again where are the pundits and reviewers. The answer is they are to cosy with the manufacturers, they want their advertising and easy access to new models so they keep them sweet. The lack of a challenging media enable manufacturers to continue to sell mediocre, poorly built products

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Famicon,
A well thought out comment.
However if the thrust of your point is that the caravan is not fit for purpose, because of the issues you describe, then if you and others were to pursue the matter through SoGA against your contract partner - dealer, then that would ultimately have a greater effect than magazine reviews.
It would hit the dealers (Who should not be selling sub standard products) who in turn would have to take robust action against the manufactures.
The fact is the processes are there enshrined in SoGA, its just that the majority of consumeres do not understand their rights when product do not function the way they should.
Its not a question of what the manufacturers design it to do, if it doesnt do what a reasonable person woulod expect it to do then its not fit for purpose.
Those customers who have had to spend extra money to extend the heating,should have pusued the dealer through SoGA.

 

[otherclive]

Famicon I agree your views wrt the lack of objectivity in caravan reviews in any of the magazines on sale. That's why I stopped buying them some 3 years ago. However regarding the Unicorn shower and water tank arrangements surely if the buyer doesn't like them they do have a choice, buy or don't buy. The lack of heating in the washroom would be more difficult to spot and why bailey didn't combine the towel rail with a small radiator does seem strange. With our blown air system we can get the washroom so comfortable that you don't want to leave!!
inpersonally don't think the SOGA would be a great help as fit for purpose is difficult to use against something as vague as 'all season'. We use our S 5 in winter even with its Aquaroll being its only tank. The ergonomics of the shower are a design issue but unless they prevent you showering then SOGA wouldn't be much help. What would help though is more objectivity in magazine reviews.

 

[xtrailman]

Its not possible to establish the shower room is cool until you have taken ownership.
The shower room is cooler due to the lack of a proper radiator/heat exchanger, and a permanently vented roof vent in the shower.
My Valencia is due back into the dealers next week for it 3rd wet locker repair, thats after a failed dealer and bailey factory repair.
On the positive side only one of the three lockers is still damp!

I have to agree it's truly disgusting that of the hundreds of damp lockers (my dealers figure) repaired, some 4 times now, i have never seen a mention of this major problem in any magazine.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all out there. I feel that now I am in a better position to answer my own question.
As difficult as this may be for some to accept as an action never mind the thought of carrying it out To The Letter.



We the caravan buying public but in particular those of you that are disposed to buying brand new caravans must cease to continue pandering to the flashy advertising and incentives to by with tempting and extremely soliciting write-ups and reviews by the caravan magazines and the On-line advertisements.

A great deal of the advertising and the flashy & expensive colour brochures that are handed out like confetti at a wedding are there to sucker you in. They describe in great detail but are actually quite economic of the truth about the product that you are about to commit yourself to.

A couple of years of greatly reduced caravan sales would surely have the manufacturers Holding Themselves to Account. They would have to examine themselves and really be truthful with themselves as to what has really driven the Cash Cows to cease producing the milk and the Geese that were laying their Golden Money Boxes to not be as so obliging.
Yes,the time has really arrived for the manufacturers,some more-so than others to stand up and account for their inactions and apparent disregard for the customers of their products.

There are of course a few that really do look after their buying public as do the dealerships that handle their products. There are also a few manufacturers that do not distribute through dealers albeit they tend to be in the minority and are generally privately owned.

They are the ones that deserve our support and our monies.
There are no doubt some dealers out there that are not really working for their customers and taking positive and decisive action on their behalf against the manufacturers, those manufacturers that are failing both the public and ultimately the dealer networks.
Have a little planned restrain even if it is a little against your normal style of doing things.
Don't Replace Something that Ain't Busted. Afford a little extra TLC. Don't line the dealers and the manufacturers pockets,keep your monies in your own.

 

[xtrailman]

All we need is the Japanese, Chinese or Koreans to start importing or even manage the industry.
That would close the poor Manufactures with in 2 years.
Personally i hope it happens.

 

[Surfer]

All we need is the Japanese, Chinese or Koreans to start importing or even manage the industry.
That would close the poor Manufactures with in 2 years.
Personally i hope it happens.

According to reports the Chinese caravans imported into Australia are well made, good quality and hardly any problems.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

All we need is the Japanese, Chinese or Koreans to start importing or even manage the industry.
That would close the poor Manufactures with in 2 years.
Personally i hope it happens.

Hi Ray. Well if my suspicions and crystal ball are anything to go by,it just might be sooner than later!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is something out there that is not yet ready for public consumption and is presently being suppressed.
The apparently ground breaking news/revaluation concerns a dealership.
It is not rocket science but it can really only be something that is possibly very damming or absolutely going to blow the socks off the UK caravan industry.

My guess is that there is either a dealership about to go mega belly up,or there is one that has thoroughly had enough of one manufacturer in-particular and is about to announce the arrival of an initial batch of Japanese,Chinese or Korean made caravans into the UK.

 

[ProfJohnL]

inpersonally don't think the SOGA would be a great help as fit for purpose is difficult to use against something as vague as 'all season'. We use our S 5 in winter even with its Aquaroll being its only tank. The ergonomics of the shower are a design issue but unless they prevent you showering then SOGA wouldn't be much help. What would help though is more objectivity in magazine reviews.

All season caravans do have to conform to a thermal and heating standard as stated elswehre, So if an area of the caravan fails to meet that standard then there is the evidence you need to push the Soga claim. Don't forget that it is the dealer responsibility to comply with standard as they take contractural responsibility. The more greif deales get about sub standard products the more likely they will renegotiate their coantractural arrangments with the manufactures.
As a suggestion if you have ANY problem with a caravan that is less than 6 months old Insist the works are carred out under SOGA and not the manufactures guarantee. That will make the dealers feel the full impact of their legal responsibilities, and if they want the pressure to drop they have got to do something about their relationship with their suppliers regarding accepting shoddy workmanship and designs.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all out there. I am sure that there must be some of you wondering what is really behind the title of my post.
I have finally got around to posting an image,the image is relevant to my opening post, suffice it to say that in the greater scheme of all things caravanning,my issue is of little consequence. It is so because of several factors,all have been disclosed.
That does not take away the principle aim behind my post and the immorality and apparent inactions of some of the caravan manufacturing companies.
The issue behind the image is not new,indeed it has been an issue since shortly after a model change that brought about a reconfiguration of the floor plan/plans from one particular manufacturer.

There is very damming and more than coincidental evidence that this is stress cracking caused by flexing of the chassis on the affected caravans and coupled with poor bonding/poor fitments at the points of failure,all of the affected ones are the longer variants of the single axle models and a great many of the twin axle variants.

An issue that was related to this and included other aspects was brought to the attention of the then Homologation Manager of the manufacturer of the caravan in question at a CC meeting held on Saturday 12th March 2011. The response to a point being made, was that;they the company ware aware of this fault and changes to the design have now been made.

The issue has carried on presenting itself on post March 2011 caravans from this company.

Pardon my seemingly ****-eyed perspective,but they appear to have fixed something that wasn't busted and failed with the real problem.

For the 2013 caravanning model year the company introduced a whole new concept in their construction methods,it will be interesting to see if this issue is about to raise its ugly head again.
This change when considered against a switch of chosen chassis for one of their model ranges really does leave me with baited breath.

 

[ProfJohnL]

At the risk of repeating myself, Customers who experience such problems must engage the seller not the manufacture and insist on a remedy under the terms of the Sale of Goods Act.
If the evidence is as damming and conclusive as Rooster claims, SoGA will not fail.
If SoGA fails it might mean that just because a fault occurs, does not neceasarily have to mean the design is defective, there could be other contributory factors.
Currently the only way to bring a manufacturer to book, is by either an individual or a class action directly sueing them, but that will require conclusive evidence, not just circumstantial.
Combined public opinion can sometimes work, but that is generally only succesful for a narrow issue, and not the general process Rooster is looking for.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

At the risk of repeating myself, Customers who experience such problems must engage the seller not the manufacture and insist on a remedy under the terms of the Sale of Goods Act.
If the evidence is as damming and conclusive as Rooster claims, SoGA will not fail.
If SoGA fails it might mean that just because a fault occurs, does not neceasarily have to mean the design is defective, there could be other contributory factors.
Currently the only way to bring a manufacturer to book, is by either an individual or a class action directly sueing them, but that will require conclusive evidence, not just circumstantial.
Combined public opinion can sometimes work, but that is generally only succesful for a narrow issue, and not the general process Rooster is looking for.

Hi Prof John L. If I am reading your last paragraph correctly,it would suggest that each and every issue/identified problem that can be logically related to the issue of flexing of the chassis has got to be contested separately and in effect as a 'Stand Alone' issue.
In the case of the cracking/tearing/splitting of the aluminium skin (as per mine as an example),this is but one of the visual manifestations that is reported and all and each is clearly interlinked/related to the route cause,stresses through flexing.
The other visible defects are including,bulging side panels/walls,movement of inner partition walls and fitments,cracking and breaking of brackets that secure the inner partitions to the side-walls/panels,buckling of the side-walls and the associated distortion of the aluminium skins in various locations about the bodywork and the list goes on and on and on.

Might I take the liberty of suggesting that you register with the other forum,look into it and take the time to read through the posts that are relevant to a search for 'cracking of aluminium skins'. You may already be a member under a different ID to your current PC ID or an anonymous visitor. That forum is CaravanTalk. It is my current opinion that it is 'The Best' of the on-line forums,it is almost certainly the most supported and actice of all at present.
It also has a great many features that others do not have and furthermore will not implement let alone consider.
The currently listed and most commonly active posts are but a few of those that have been under discussion since my time of fully joining the membership in July 2010.
I joined the membership just after purchasing the current caravan at which point the problem was not immediately visible albeit I firmly believe that it was there and had been very skilfully disguised.

 

[intransient1]

Well the van has been inspected and the finance company has been in touch to ask me what I am prepared to accept.
I advised them that I would accept a replacement or my money back.
This has produced a further issue, if I get my money back I will be charged a rental amount for using the van.
It appears you get stuffed all ways
.Maybe I should have bought a van in Germany where you have more rights as a consumer.
I spoke to the dealership last week to advise of further faults and the advised that the cupboard door for the kitchen has finally arrived, this one item has taken 6 months to aquire, not really what I would call god customer service from Lunar.
I am seriously thinking of setting up a website that people can put their grievances on that would be out there in plain view of the manufactures.

 

[ProfJohnL]

....I advised them that I would accept a replacement or my money back. This has produced a further issue, if I get my money back I will be charged a rental amount for using the van. It appears you get stuffed all ways....
...I am seriously thinking of setting up a website that people can put their grievances on that would be out there in plain view of the manufactures.

Hello intransient,

Sadly you come across as a rather angry poster, perhaps with some reason.

However, to the meat and potatoes of your post. You are upset that the finance company are suggesting charging you for the use of the caravan.

There is logic to the proposal. If the faults cited had prevent the use of the caravan, then you will not have had any value from the caravan and thus you would be entitled to a full refund. But if you have had any substantive use from a product you have had value from the product. Consequently you have not suffered a total loss.
SoGA only seeks to redress real losses, it is not designed to allow customers to make any pecuniary gain.
You can of course challenge the suggestion, but you would have to show real loss of function (not just loss of enjoyment)of the product.

 

[johnandrew70]

I wouldn't say banned but more accurately attacked by a few trolls who feel they must have the last word

I know what you mean Jeff, I have been on the recieving end of some trolls on the swift forum, Not nice.

 

[Raywood]

The return of the caravan can be a problem if you have had it for somew time. The only time this is reasonably practicable is within the first six months of ownership as after that the courtys have been reluctant to enforce it. Probably the best option after that is to get a report on the problem and an estimate for the repair and raise a small claims action for the repair costs, the costs incurred in trying to rfesolve the issue inconveniance and interest against the dealer and the manufacturer. I doubt any manufacturer will finance an action to defend that if you have prepared your case reasonably well given that Bailey had their fingers badly burned trying that last year. You can do this at very little risk to you but the manufacturer would have to finance its own solicitors costs and those of the dealer with no chance of recovering these even if (and it is a big if) they won.

 

[Surfer]

The return of the caravan can be a problem if you have had it for somew time. The only time this is reasonably practicable is within the first six months of ownership as after that the courtys have been reluctant to enforce it. Probably the best option after that is to get a report on the problem and an estimate for the repair and raise a small claims action for the repair costs, the costs incurred in trying to rfesolve the issue inconveniance and interest against the dealer and the manufacturer. I doubt any manufacturer will finance an action to defend that if you have prepared your case reasonably well given that Bailey had their fingers badly burned trying that last year. You can do this at very little risk to you but the manufacturer would have to finance its own solicitors costs and those of the dealer with no chance of recovering these even if (and it is a big if) they won.

Just to add. After 6 months the onus is on you to prove that the fault si a manufacturing fault which shoudl eb relatively easy if the caravan is servcied regularly and you end up with damp. The only way you will get a manufacturer into court under SOGA is to call them as a witness.
However as per another post is if you have paid the deposit with a credit card, claim the full price of the caravan back through the CC and let them do the fighting for you. There was a successful case recently.