Why Ban diesels?

[GD485]

I was trawling the web for some truth about the diesel engine's contribution to the UK pollution problems and discovered the following on the Peterbough IAM website:Some Diesel Facts

UK NOx emissions from passenger cars have fallen 81% since 1990 – the biggest reduction of any sector. (source: DEFRA AQPI)
54% of people incorrectly blamed cars and commercial vehicles as the biggest cause of air pollution in the UK. Just under one in five (19%) of people surveyed correctly identified power stations as the biggest contributors of nitrogen oxides (NOx). In fact, it would take 42 million Euro-6 diesel cars (almost four times the number on the roads) to generate the same amount of NOx as one UK coal-fired power station. (source: EEA; SMMT; DEFRA AQPI; RACF)
In a world without diesel, average fuel use for new cars in the UK would be 11% higher – amounting to an extra £315 million per year in fuel bills for British drivers. (source: SMMT data 2002-14)
Diesel cars have contributed massively to reducing CO2 emissions. Since 2002, buyers choosing diesel have saved almost 3 million tonnes of CO2 from going into the atmosphere. (source: SMMT data 2002-14)
For more information visit Diesel: The Facts, Click Green, Air Quality Org[/i]

Why has the diesel engine become the current pet hate topic?

I can understand the need to reduce inner city pollution but as I see it the government favoured alternative, the electric car, would add to the countries pollution problems by increasing the demand on the power stations.
Although electric cars would kill towing and long distance travel, maybe this is the way to reduce harmful emissions.

Perhaps the government sees the diesel problem as a vote winner? Over 54% of those people asked in the above article said diesel road transport was the main cause of pollution. Get the 54% to vote for the party whose policy is kill the diesel and they could be well on the way to a house of commons majority!

We could be sleep walking into the curtailing of our chosen holidays.

Surely the interested parties of our pastime should counter the argument that all diesels are dirty and population killers!

 

[colin-yorkshire]

I once saw a report back in the 80's by the railway commission on vehicle use. [this being a time when goods were being transferred from rail to road haulage] stating that this upward trend would increase the UK pollution problems 10 fold in 20 years. it made a suggestion that instead of using the roads to transfer goods long distance it would be possible to just use short haulage between major cities with trailers travelling on rail carriages [similar to the euro tunnel] for the majority of the route, this facility could also be used for private journeys. I thought it was a brilliant idea. tow the van to the nearest city point mount the train to where your going get off refreshed and carry on to the site. no long distance towing and quieter roads for those that use them. of course nothing was ever done and the pollution has risen. maybe when were all electric the scheme will rear it's head.
the world is a con they tell you something believable you act on it then the next lot in charge says it wasn't a good idea like diesel cars, around and round the roundabout.

 

[Raywood]

As I understand it the particles emitted by the diesel engine are even worse than the C02 from petrol engines so they are now the enemy.
To me electric cars are not ready to replace the internal combustion engine and we are nowhere near having the generating capacity to make them viable in great numbers if the other problems can be overcome. The electric car seems likely to fall flat on its face for many reasons unless far more is done to provide charging points in residential streets and vastly increase the generating capacity we currently have and science gets the range and charging times improved considerably.
My nephew has one but he can afford a Tesla. He did a 300 mile trip in it but needed to stop for over an hour to recharge which would be unacceptable to most people.

 

[GD485]

Hi Colin

The railways: anothe bit of short-term planing by the government of the late fifties and sixties.
The Minister for transport at the time decided railways were not worth investing in and got Dr Brechin to come up with a scheme that got rid of the feeder lines. The Motorail service was a non-starter as it only went between major cities.
It just happened the transport minister also owned one of the country's largest civil engineering companies and they got the contract to build some of the major motorways. Coincidence or ...........?
The short term plans have left us with very dirty diesel locomotives. Lots of CO2 and particulates.

 

[GD485]

Hi Ray

I think you might be right about particles.

It's very difficult to see how the energy density of diesel can matched by a battery. That's really the major problem with electric cars.

I think the answer is a hydrogen fuel cell type device. Maybe not using hydrogen. High energy density with low mass but storage means heavy containers.

Albert Einstein's famous equation shows the energy contained within the structure of a small amount of mass is enormous. If only the energy could be extracted in some way.

 

[KeefySher]

Hi Ray

I think you might be right about particles.

It's very difficult to see how the energy density of diesel can matched by a battery. That's really the major problem with electric cars.

I think the answer is a hydrogen fuel cell type device. Maybe not using hydrogen. High energy density with low mass but storage means heavy containers.

Albert Einstein's famous equation shows the energy contained within the structure of a small amount of mass is enormous. If only the energy could be extracted in some way.

But doesn't the electrolysis reaction to create the hydrogen require electrical generation in it? Where does the electricity come from in the depths of a winters night, let alone any other time to create the hydrogen required for vehicles?

 

[GD485]

Your right about splitting the water molecule to its component atoms.
It's all to do with conservation of energy. The fuel cell power comes from the rebonding of hydrogen and oxygen atoms to form water that realeases energy that was put in to split it in the first place. The input energy is greater than the realeased energy due to heat generated. ( I think that's right).
However there are other sources of hydrogen. If I remember correctly hydrogen is extracted from natural gas for commercial use now.
Although hydrogen fuel cells are current technology maybe other gases or water can do the same job. Perhaps the answer lies in quantum mechanics?

 

[camel]

I had to laugh last week when I heard that Cruise liners will be docking at Tower Bridge in London and their auxiliary engines will have to run all the time they are tied up there to provide the power, so much for the London ban on anything that is diesels,

 

[GD485]

Now because boats are surrounded by water ( not if there's heavy rain in London, the Victorian sewers overflow into to the Thames) the cruisers could use Stanley Meyer's water powered fuel cell. Now that's an American con-trick on a mega scale.

 

[Woodentop]

The problem is that Diesel Particulate Filters or DPFs have only been mandatory since Euro4 or 2009 or thereabouts. There are of diesels much older than that that do not have a DPF or have had it removed. VW caught a cold over emissions and yet one of the cleanest cars on the road in a recent survey was - the VW Passat.

Before cars are banned from being diesel powered HMG needs to look at
vehicles - diggers etc - associated with the building business
diesel generators on such sites that run 24/7
diesel trains - especially the older DMUs
older trucks, vans and buses

When that and the few remaining coal-fired power stations have had their particulate emissions stopped they can look at cars of Euro4 and above.

Remember that all these rules are made in LONDON which has its own particular problems but those problems seriously sway the people making the decisions.

Oh, and it was Dr Beeching - not Brechin.

 

[GD485]

Spell checker intervened with Dr Beeching!
(Computers they'll never catch on)!
Your right about plant equipment. I was at my local hospital when the power went off. The smoke from the emergency generators made day into night.
I think shipping may have a part to play. On TV was programme on super container ships that consumed fuel at 26 feet to the gallon. No DPF or Catalyst in sight.

 

[Martin24]

I'm fairly sure that both my current and the newly ordered cripple mobils are exempt from the London charges and diesel bans, in the same way as we don't pay for any toll crossings or roads. Huge sigh of relief from me. :cheer:

 

[GD485]

On the news tonight they mentioned the government are thinking of taxing, congestion charging or banning cars made before 2016 or Euro 6 compliant.
Already the trade is predicting a drop of 25% on diesel car trade in prices.
I think the media is being fed this bash the Diesel story to cover up the real mess the government is in.

 

[DrZhivago]

Albert Einstein's famous equation shows the energy contained within the structure of a small amount of mass is enormous. If only the energy could be extracted in some way.

That is what nuclear power stations do. But I guess you were using irony.

 

[GD485]

The famous equation shows that energy and mass are interchangeable multipled by a very large constant squared.
So, it demonstrates the huge amount of energy is embedded in a tiny amount of mass.
This energy can be released by atom bombs and nuclear power plants but if the scientists dream releasing this energy at lower temperature from stable materials would answer our energy problems.
Do you remember the hoax of cold fusion by two Americans a few years ago?
They claimed to release energy from water at low temperatures. That's what I was referring to.

 

[Dodger524]

On the news tonight they mentioned the government are thinking of taxing, congestion charging or banning cars made before 2016 or Euro 6 compliant.
Already the trade is predicting a drop of 25% on diesel car trade in prices.
I think the media is being fed this bash the Diesel story to cover up the real mess the government is in.

Governments don't think, they react! If they thought we would not be in the current mess.

 

[GD485]

So right!

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Perhaps the impetuous behind the disdain towards diesel powered vehicles has been government lead/promoted and more than likely by MP's that would/could have ulterior motive to see further development with alternative power trains.
Shares held but not necessarily by those MP's - perhaps being held in trust in the developing companies would produce a handsome return for their future generations.

 

[GD485]

Maybe it's simpler than that. How about an attempt to hide all the bad things behind a contentious issue. It's been done before.

 

[DrZhivago]

Perhaps the impetuous behind the disdain towards diesel powered vehicles has been government lead/promoted and more than likely by MP's that would/could have ulterior motive .. Shares held but not necessarily by those MP's

I don't think it is anything as concrete as holding shares. Politicians are attention seekers; they like to be talking with people listening to them. They will pick an issue that they think will hold people's attention as arbitrarily as picking a football team to support - there are no deep principles to it.

MPs are almost entirely "humanities" people - ie they tend to be graduates with degrees in history, English, economics, philosophy etc and very few know or understand much about science and technology, and what they do know they generally don't like. Science and technology went out of fashion in such circles 100 years ago, although with a brief revival after WW2 with its "boffins", and Mrs T completed the obliteration of the UK's part in technical world leadership.

The "disdain" is thus towards technology generally, not just towards diesels. The politicians will however tolerate a level of technology that can be understood at nursery school level, like wind generators, or otherwise the technology has to materialise like magic, such as solar panels and iPhones appearing somehow from China, as long as no-one is able to open the iPhones' cases and spoil the illusion.