Why penalise our Doctors and Nurses?

[602]

Quote ...... If they had to budget more carefully in thier private lives they would do better in the workplace ......

Hi,

My wife had the authority to spend MANY millions of public money, without seeking higher authority.

She said that it completely ruined her attitude when shopping at TESCO.

Oh yes,her salary was abated by 8.5% to contribute to her non -contibutory pension. Having her second baby caused her to forfeit 7 years of her pension. How often does that happen in industry?

602

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

An interesting statistic that's falls in line with this topic is the armed forces.

There are 99,000 military service personnel and 85,000 civilian personnel working for the M.O.D.

It doesn't take much working out that there's something drastically wrong there. I suppose centuries ago these people would have been known as camp followers.

 

[Dustydog]

And they are all eligible to join the CSMA and enjoy some lovely motoring discounts.

I am not eligible to join because I don't work for the Civil Service. A Masonic Lodge or what?

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[peter_374235415]

I have to laugh at this ......!

CSMA has nothing to do with the civil service its an organisation owned by its members and isn't free, its about

 

[peter_374235415]

I have to laugh at this ......!

CSMA has nothing to do with the civil service its an organisation owned by its members and isn't free, its about

 

[peter_374235415]

... . And regarding your first posting Dusty dog, when did you see a poor doctor. GP's earn a massive amount now and you get to spend less time with them. Doctors in hospitals all carry out work for private health care firms to further enhance their salary. I think most (agreed not all) get enough!

 

[Guest]

If someone doesn't make a profit what does a country run on?

As a former professional and company owner I never forced anybody to work for me and many made a good living and some now run there own businesses. The UK took more than a good chunk of what we made as well. Those nice company cars that UK users pay tax on also provide many jobs.

I get a little p'd off at negative comments about private business, I've also paid more than a fair share of heavy bank charges and there should have been a closr check on their practices.

Before knifing the so called easy pickings of private business, go and work for yourself or set up a business and see if you can find it easy.

 

[peter_374235415]

"I get a little p'd off at negative comments about private business"

ah, so its ok for negative comments directed at public sector workers then!

"easy pickings" your words not mine. Your welcome to them, I certainly not objecting to you getting them. I have no wish to start a business.

I enjoy my current job, I'm never going to be rich I'm fully aware of that but I work hard and earn my money providing a public service.

All I'm asking is that everyone doesn't jump on the band wagon and tar all public sector workers with the same brush.

Oh and as an owner of your own company, how much money did your accountant save you in tax fiddles and other perfectly legal loop holes that I as a tax payer has had to suffer the loss of!

 

[colin-yorkshire]

peter. it is not the public sector workers who are to blame for anything, it is the public sector bosses in their air conditions offices and fat salaries, you know the ones those who take the decisions that heap all the chaos on to front line services. no night shifts for them or weekend rotas no working in the rain or snow but as soon as a problem occurs its the front line that gets the spotlight.

the main problem as I see it is not that the public sector are better treated or looked after in any preferential way it is the private sector that is sadly lacking in outlook towards

it's own front line troops, not suprising really as all for profit mentality gets in the way. most private firms use the carrot and stick style of management, the bosses get the carrots and rest get the stick, if that seems not to work use a bigger stick.

when you find yourself under such harsh regimes it then becomes far too easy to look at the public sector with envious eyes and say why them when it is my taxes that pay for it all, the exact feelings that the political masters use to sway public opinion in their favor it no suprise then that the tories announced at their conferance that the first job of a tory government was to freeze ALL public sector pay and cut services to save money.

in Dustydogs first post he wrote" Some idiot from the current Government wants to scrap any pay rises for our Doctors.

Well if there was ever any part of the Civil Service I'd hate to hurt is our Doctors who do a fantastic job.

If you have ever been at death's door you will know what I mean.

Meanwhile there are these To$$er$ in Whitehall studying Global Warming and its future on how we may vote amongst other things. Give me strength , sack these parasites not the people who look after our health."

so we should not expect any change there then same song different singers.

as for the doctors and nurses on the front line in the hospitals what can you say I don't know what their pay structures are but it' not enough, the GP's on the other hand different story altogether, take ours now called a medical centre, 1000,s of patiences (bigger is better) because it generates more income. With 10 doctors (5 per surgery) 10 nurses 6 reception staff and 3 managers. 5 of the doctors do private work and 2 are allways on holiday.no after hours appoitments or doctors visits these done by locum on contract. you cannot get to see a doctor unless you speak to the nursing practioner first who diverts a large pecentage of enquiries to the nursing staff and if get to see your own doctor (quite rare) he has to refer to your notes to know who you are, it is impossible to do a return visit without going through the whole process again. and this is called progress time was when your family doctor was just that he knew all his patientes by name and what ailed them he did house calls and got out of bed if you were sick. but not anymore now the surgery is run like a business and you are just it's customers.

now let me see who changed the way GP's were paid and altered their contracts er must have been gordie.

 

[Dustydog]

Peter

Colin has very kindly reiterated my original post. You will see I carefully differentiated between the different parts of the civil service.

I am not eligible to join the CSMA because I am not a Civil Servant.

I worked in the private sector all my life. We were all fully aware that success or failure of the company determined the longevity of our jobs. Thus most of us worked extra long hours for nothing. Paid overtime didn't exist. We had to contribute towards our pensions. That concern for job stability and working hours for nothing most certainly imo does not exist in the CS.

Thus Euro's comments are very valid and realistic.

Our doctors here and those doctors and nurses who looked after my dad in North Devon were fantastic. I'd pay them double money. Strange how it seems to vary across the country .But the fat cat civil servants , 9-5 with extended lunches in their private clubs . Bin them.

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[Heethers]

l have been watching this thread over the last few days, did not want to get involved but l feel l must defend these nurses of ours.

My wife has been a Nurse since she was 17 she is now 56.

In that time she was a nurse in casualty and then moved on to Hydependacy Unit which is an intensive care unit where she worked for 15 years or so, in that time the extra work had to be booked down in the time owing book as they were not allowed to take it in pay.

In all the time she worked in this department she never took the time owed to her due to staffing.

l once worked out in that time it came to about 15 weeks time owed and probably more has she sometimes didn't book it.

After this she moved on to become a Sister on the district where she looked after all her patients with compassion and care, in all the 20 years when she was on the district we never had a full Christmas together and very few New Year eve parties.

She never complained about it as she always said Nursing was a vacation and the hours came with the terror try.

What aggrieves me is that she works for the NHS, which is, has far as l am concerned is government department but our nurses do not get the privileges of other government employee's.

She is now a manager but has been told her job has gone but no redundancy or early retirement for Nursing managers they have to be redeployed back into the NHS, not like none nursing managers who will take early retirement and the redundancy packages and we no what civil servants in the NHS get.

On top of that she has been told she will not be able to retire until she is 63 to 64 years of age "thanks Mr Brown".

Has she complained no! like all other nurses they get on with what they do best looking after the sick, yes some have bad days like the rest of us, sometimes the care suffers little, but thankfully not often.

I count my self lucky l worked for a good company that paid well and had a good pension scheme that allowed me to retire early, not so my wife who thought she had 4 years to do before she retired has now found out she has 8 years to do.

So please remember we have as far as l am concerned the best nurses in the world and we should support them.

Rant over.

NigelH

 

[Gumbo]

Nigel " On top of that she has been told she will not be able to retire until she is 63 to 64 years of age "thanks Mr Brown".

To be fair that is not Mr Brown's fault, this has come about through the fact we are all living longer.The other part of your post is this assumption all Nurses are like Angels. They are clearly not. They look after the sick same as your Car Mechanic looks after your car, it's just they are there when people are at their most vulnerable.

Just analysis it, it is in most cases a pretty basic job which can be carried out without a lot of Skill and Training. Now the District Nurse or Theatre Sisiter are different kinds of Nurses altogether skilled and experienced, but again not exactly decsion makers.

Unisom, RCN RC Midwifes have done a pretty good job of portraying Nurses as "angels" etc who should be highly paid.

Some should be others should not, but any talk of changing this around is defeated by the Unions who would just rather have the status quo. That's what is holding back the development of the NHS

 

[Gumbo]

Colin "time was when your family doctor was just that he knew all his patientes by name and what ailed them he did house calls and got out of bed if you were sick. but not anymore now the surgery is run like a business and you are just it's customers."

That is what you are Colin like it or not, a Customer only rather than buying the Service as and when you need it, your paying into a giant ponzi scheme called the NHS. That dosen't mean to say I don't agree with it I Do. You just need to understand that it is the Dr or nurse who dosen't know you, not the system.

50 years ago when you visited the Dr's they had a poky little surgery no with no nurses etc. Just look now see the size of the efficient Health Centre with the pro active screening which didn't exsist in the era you are reflecting on. Does your Dr really need to know you?? they don't at the Hospital you attend !!! It's change and I for one think it is for the best.

 

[Dustydog]

I said:-

"Our doctors here and those doctors and nurses who looked after my dad in North Devon were fantastic. I'd pay them double money. Strange how it seems to vary across the country ."

Thus it seems to me there is still a lottery that the service received is dependant upon where you live.

The In Laws surgery in the West Midlands must be one of the most unhelpful surgeries going.

I'd like to see continuity.

Gumbo hit the nail on the head. They are run as businesses, some good some bad. Maybe they have forgotten what their "core business" is?

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[Heethers]

Gumbo you are out of touch, quote nurses don't have to make decisions.

Sisters on the district now have to make prescriptions out to a certain level without consultation with a doctor, did they get extra for this responsibility no, did the doctors for shedding this action yes.

l could go on for ages on the added decisions nurses have to take every day of their working day but l am not getting it to a squabble on what our nurses deserve, lets just say we beg to differ.

Has for the retirement aspect l remembers not so long ago when Gordon Brown was deliberating fetching the retirement age down, "Big U turn".

Police can retire at 45, civil servants been retiring at 50 for sometime also teachers, my ex teacher retired at 50 20 years ago and still are so don't say its dew to people living longer, there are some rules for some and some for others.

 

[Auvergne]

NGH, just to clarify, I'm wondering if the nurses you are referring are "Nurse Prescribers". In this case these they have undergone training to prescribe certain repeat scripts for drugs already prescribed by a doctor, they most certainly do not go into the community and prescribe without consultation or change drugs as they are simply not qualified to do so. They will have been recompensed for this training by financial remuneration within their banding - this is the point of the yearly appraisal and personal development plan. My friend is a Nurse Prescriber and earning

 

[Heethers]

Valerie you are correct on the nurse prescribing with consultation with the doctor, wrong on remuneration, none received as the bands changed, correct over 30k year but the need of a car, crown car

 

[Gumbo]

Nigel "Gumbo you are out of touch, quote nurses don't have to make decisions"

Just to clarify something "I am not out of touch" I would rather not discuss what I do,(besides caravanning and being retired) but I am not out of touch with the current practices within the NHS.

 

[Gumbo]

Find out more about NHS organisations in your area.NHS pay - agenda for change - pay rates

Pay rates from April 1st 2009*

The following is a guide only to Agenda for Change pay rates. You should check with any employer directly, to confirm the pay rate for any post for which you are applying.

*(These figures have been taken from 'Pay Circular (AforC) 1/2009' (Pay and conditions for NHS Staff covered by the Agenda for Change agreement) which can be viewed on the NHS Employers website (www.nhsemployers.org))

Band 1

Point 1 13,233

Point 2 13,588

Point 3 13,944

Band 2

Point 1 13,233

Point 2 13,588

Point 3 13,944

Point 4 14,359

Point 5 14,774

Point 6 15,190

Point 7 15,725

Point 8 16,333

Band 3

Point 6 15,190

Point 7 15,725

Point 8 16,333

Point 9 16,698

Point 10 17,184

Point 11 17,732

Point 12 18,157

Band 4

Point 11 17,732

Point 12 18,157

Point 13 18,826

Point 14 19,495

Point 15 20,102

Point 16 20,710

Point 17 21,318

Band 5

Point 16 20,710

Point 17 21,318

Point 18 22,152

Point 19 23,019

Point 20 23,345

Point 21 24,013

Point 22 24,831

Point 23 25,829

Point 24 26,839

Band 6

Point 22 24,831

Point 23 25,829

Point 24 26,839

Point 25 27,844

Point 26 28,816

Point 27 29,789

Point 28 30,762

Point 29 31,856

Point 30 33,436

Band 7

Point 27 29,789

Point 28 30,762

Point 29 31,856

Point 30 33,436

Point 31 34,410

Point 32 35,504

Point 33 36,719

Point 34 37,996

Point 35 39,273

Band 8a

Point 34 37,996

Point 35 39,273

Point 36 40,853

Point 37 42,434

Point 38 44,258

Point 39 45,596

Band 8b

Point 38 44,258

Point 39 45,596

Point 40 47,905

Point 41 50,580

Point 42 53,256

Point 43 54,714

Band 8c

Point 42 53,256

Point 43 54,714

Point 44 57,146

Point 45 59,821

Point 46 63,833

Point 47 65,657

Band 8d

Point 46 63,833

Point 47 65,657

Point 48 68,393

Point 49 71,736

Point 50 75,383

Point 51 79,031

Band 9

Point 50 75,383

Point 51 79,031

Point 52 82,824

Point 53 86,800

Point 54 90,967

Point 55 95,333

 

[Heethers]

Sisters were on band 8 some now being reduced to band 7 protected until the next pay increase.

Whets your point Gumbo are they not worth it.

l know people in the private sector on twice has much and weren't worth two pence.

Unless you know what their job description entails the pay structure you have printed means nothing.

Further more l remember when the nurses were called Florence nightingales and pay structure to boot, none existent, that was until a lady Prime Minster came in and started paying them their worth.

 

[Gumbo]

nigel

What it show's is a clear Increasing Pay Structure for Career Progression within the NHS.

Not all Nurses can be on

 

[Guest]

There are a finite number of hours anyone can work, if you work in the public sector that is your choice. As admirable as public work is life saving and health work is not bringing in a profit.

My comment about "easy pickings" in the private sector was tongue in cheek as most self employed or private business people will know.

NHS workers on lower pay scales are not helped by managers on 80-90K p a along with private sector like perks and who actually bring in no profit.

I worked for myself, paid the tax's etc and tax on profits. I take nothing from the UK system although I paid in to the system. When I was a young self employed family man and hit difficult times the UK employment and benefit services didn't want to know! I got b***** all help, but when I returned from working abroad (moving overseas had been my only option) 5 years later they wanted a huge chunk of tax from me although I'd had no benefits from the UK in those years away.

We have UK friends and family public sector workers, one example we had recently was of a South East Education Authority. Our friends wife works for the authority whilst her husband is a teacher. His school is underfunded whilst the LEA managers were entertained 5 star style out of public funds for their Christmas party, and they only hold training in up market hotels such as the Haute Quisine Haven Hotel in Poole or a Country Park hotel Venue in the New Forest.

The LEA could use many of the schools for training or one of numerous education centres they have. School dinner ladies, cleaners and classroom assistants work for a pittance as they can't afford to pay more say the employers whilst the Local Education Authority managers compare luxury hotel menues and services they enjoy at training days and conferences they run.

And as regular visitors to the venues giving them plenty of business, guess whether the managers get cheap weekend deals and holidays for booking their events at the venues!

NONE at all of course, they only go pack packing on the cheap ;0)

A private profit making company pays from its profits and pays its taxes!

Education and NHS and state business pay from Tax's and by paying criminally low wages to many hard working public sector workers.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi Gumbo, " Does your Dr really need to know you?? they don't at the Hospital you attend !!! It's change and I for one think it is for the best."

does the doctor need to know you yes I think he does why?? WELL while working at the glass works 1991 I recieved a bad cut that went septic this was treated with antibiotics but I had a bad reaction to them that made the problem worse but after months of alternative treatment got better. roll on a few years and I had an occasion to see a doctor at the practice with chest pains after examination he diagnosed a chest infection and a course of antibiotics. on picking up the pescription I read the words (amoxillin 500mg) alarm bells rang out in my head so back to the surgery "is this right" I am allergic to penicillin you know" an alternative was quickly dispensed without any comment at all. so what was it about me or was not on the computer screen he did not know?? obviously some medical history, something my old doctor would not have missed in a million years but what if I had been infirm or a child or did not understand about drugs, gone home and taken the tablets well the answer would have been.

RIP colin-yorkshire 23rd sept 2006.

I have said many times on this forum bigger is not allways better.

colin-yorkshire, 11 oct 2009 still alive (just)

 

[Dustydog]

When I worked I probably had 100 ish cases on the go at any one time. 10 would be major cases and I knew them intimately. Anyone else who stood in may have missed something.That's how it should be with your GP.

Our doctors here know us very well and we are treated with dignity etc not just the next pork chop on the slab. Personal knowledge and attention goes a long way to help with health matters and making the patient feel more confident. Especially when you have to see a stranger doctor at the hospital! Our GP takes time to explain the things that maybe the hospital doc didn't!

Cheers

Dustydog

 

[Gumbo]

Sorry Colin can't see any sense in that one.

Lets do a what if. If you had the incident 10 years ago. Would your Dr have remembered you if you hadn't visted him over the next ten years which occurrs in a lot of cases. The only peole GPs knew by name or record are the ones who visit on a very regular basis. Which I hasten to add is not the majority of the population.

To give you an example in the next 40 years we will phone a computer that will do a quick diagnostic check, monitoring Heart Rhythm,Pulse etc it will then ask you specific questions just like your Dr would. Then then the programme will decide if you need to go in for a check up or if an Ambulance should be sent.

If you don't believe me look back 40 years and see the changes that have taken place.