Why so many 4X4s?

[Parksy]

parksy I mentioned the fact that some 4x4 owners have to justify their choice of tow vehicle and then immediatly you start justiyfing the use of 4x4s as a tow vehicle, ."I rest my case"

If you think that I was 'justifying the use of 4x4's as a tow vehicle' then you haven't understood my reply.
I don't need to justify MY choice of tow vehicle to anybody but I was trying to show why 4x4 owners in general feel that they have to reply to unfounded and unfair criticism. You brought this issue up in the first place, not me.
If somebody is critical of another individuals choice no matter what it's about then the individual facing criticism has every right to reply if they want to.
When what amounts to a national 'hate campaign' orchestrated in part by loony lefty media types at the BBC is waged against 4x4 owners then it's no wonder that they are defensive.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi all
now hang on a minute gentlemen one at a time please,
LB.
I made the assumption that you used the new tow car less than the old one based on your statment that you had just filled it up for the first time since new years eve (thats 2 months ago) having not. previously stated that you use your car less in the winter months.as this is the case I stand corrected. unlike myself who uses the car far more in the winter for trips shorter than 5 miles because it is so dam cold to think of using alternatives in the summer I use the bike and walk a lot more.
you also state that you have plans for trips away totalling about 3 months roughly the same as we did last year however unlike you who go frequently on shorter trips we go for a long stay of several weeks at a time and thus less towing miles for me a 4x4 would be a waste of money the little car does its job when it has to and is as cheap as chips to run when the van is not on the back. Thats my choice yours is different and thats fine so lets leave it at that.

parksy
I would not want you or anyone else to assume that I am anti 4x4s that is not the case, while I accept that in some cases and due to personal choice people use them as tugs.
The point I was raising was that the assumtion that only 4x4s are good tow cars was wrong reading some of the post when this subject comes up one would think the choice of a big lugger was automatic but as soon as a decenting voice is heard the hard core 4x4 brigade jump in with giant wooden clogs go on the defensive and immedatly besowe on all the virtues of their personal choice with outragious comments like "people who dont have one are just jealous of us who do" and look how good my car is in 2in of snow like every other type of car is immedetly immobile or something.
like many on this forum I have 40+ years of caravanning behind me sadly now comming to an end like most of us and have learned a few things along the way one of which is, "do it your own way"
to sum up I have nothing against 4x4s just the attitude of some 4x4 owners wether that attitude is borne out of political views or personal experience is immaterial do it your own way. As I will continue to do for the time I have left to enjoy my time in the van.
colin

 

[Lutz]

Now, now, Parksy. Pray, what does 'lefty' type have to do with waging war against 4x4 owners? An argument aimed against all big expensive cars in general might be understandable in such a case, but why specifically 4x4's? Even if one were to replace the word 'lefty' by 'green', it still makes little sense as a state-of-the-art 4x4 churns out a lot less emissions than a family car of the past.
That would be a case of mandatory scrappage of all cars over 10 years old. It would be interesting to see what the reaction to such a suggestion would be. By the way, it's not my idea. I've heard it mentioned by some quarters as a serious proposal and it might even achieve more for the environment than banning 4x4's.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

All this 4x4 bashing! a lot of people have a go at others choice of towing vehicle without actually owning one themselves.
Lets wind the clock back a few years, I'm sure I am not unique in having had the pleasure of pursuing my hobby for over forty years, when Sprite was king of caravans. Most peoples choice of tow car was there every day saloon, Hilmans, Vauxhall, Ford, all in the region of 1600cc, very rarely did we see the trusty old land rover towing a caravan. Immediately I can here people saying, ahh but caravans then were a lot lighter in those days, not necessarily true, real wood, steel chassis, hand built in a lot of cases like safari, Carlight, and quite a few other makes, and believe me they were heavy vans and we would see the old 3.5 Rovers come in to play.

In my case my first van was a 1959 Sprite Musketeer, a four berth family tourer, but very heavy with its glass windows, steel chassis, a full size pull down bed complete with mattress! Towed by the family Hilman supper minx @ 1700cc, the reason we never saw the land rover towing was mainly because they were agricultural, and I speak from experience, six hours in a short wheelbase LR felt like you have just got off a bucking bronco, hence left to the farmers.

Wind the clock on a few years and we saw the Range Rover and competition from over seas, the old jeep had come of age and was now a lot more refined and found its way in to the caravaning circle, and became the must have tow car, whether you had a small two berth lightweight van or a monster twin axle, a 4x4 was the call of the day.

I was no exception, I strayed away from Volvo, who I had been loyal to for over twenty years. Went out and purchased a 2.5 Mitsubishi LW Shogun as I could not get the thought out of my head that I needed a 4X4 as I had at the time an Elldis twin axle supper storm. Great motor, but to be honest not for me, could not see the benefit over my old Volvo 740 turbo, and was nowhere near as good a tow car from a power point of view, the old Volvo would have walked circles round it when it came to pulling the van. I took it over to France, and toured around the UK with it, but after 10 months i realised it was not for me, I just could not see any advantage in using it for towing, like the majority of people who use them I was on CC sites with tarmac roads, and the occasionall CL, so the need to use it to get me of a muddy field did not exist, and if it had it would only have been marginally better due to the fact that it was running on standard road tyres, I have been on many a muddy rally field in years past and seen them get stuck, just like the rest of us, and been rescued by the farmers tractor.
But at the end of the Day it is down to the individual what they prefer as a tow car, I certainly have no beef with any one who uses a 4x4, one mans meat and all that, no doubt theres loads of folk out there that would criticise my choice of tug, but hey, water of a ducks back, each to there own, go and enjoy!

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

you also state that you have plans for trips away totalling about 3 months roughly the same as we did last year however unlike you who go frequently on shorter trips we go for a long stay of several weeks at a time and thus less towing miles for me so lets leave it at that.

No i ain't leaving it at that ya ol' tyke

Here is our itinerary ...
1 week March
3 weeks May
4 weeks June/July
2 weeks July/August
2 weeksAugust/September
2 weeks September/October

I'm not sure what constitutes shorter trips, our shortest is one week, longest four. There was going to be a three weeker but have had to cancel that because of family commitments

Anyway, have a look at this site ... http://www.wolfvalleyenterprises.co.uk/caravanSite.html
... you'll be a happier bunny when you can dangle your worm again .. heh! heh! heh!

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

That would be a case of mandatory scrappage of all cars over 10 years old. It would be interesting to see what the reaction to such a suggestion would be. By the way, it's not my idea. I've heard it mentioned by some quarters as a serious proposal and it might even achieve more for the environment than banning 4x4's.

OMGGGGG not another directive from those buffoons in Brussells, or even Strasbourg, depending where they happen to be at the time with their hair brained schemes. Is there no end to their idiocy. I would have learned my lesson over the fish stocks fiasco but still they impose their liberal wet views over eneryone .. GRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Please God get us out of there and let me die happy

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Hear Hear LB

 

[Parksy]

Now, now, Parksy. Pray, what does 'lefty' type have to do with waging war against 4x4 owners? An argument aimed against all big expensive cars in general might be understandable in such a case, but why specifically 4x4's? Even if one were to replace the word 'lefty' by 'green', it still makes little sense as a state-of-the-art 4x4 churns out a lot less emissions than a family car of the past.
That would be a case of mandatory scrappage of all cars over 10 years old. It would be interesting to see what the reaction to such a suggestion would be. By the way, it's not my idea. I've heard it mentioned by some quarters as a serious proposal and it might even achieve more for the environment than banning 4x4's.

The 'lefty types' who have waged war against 4x4 owners are those who seek to impose their will on others whilst having no mandate to do so, who stifle freedom of choice and freedom of speech.
These people hate the idea of people thinking for themselves and making their own choices, everything has to be reduced to the lowest common denominator in their world and if they can't rob people of the right to own cars altogether then they take it upon themselves to impose their idea of what sort of cars we should be allowed to own. The arguments for and against the relative emmissions of 4x4s as compared to other large automobiles has little bearing on what actually took place here in the UK, there was a definite and paplable anti 4x4 agenda being pursued by fair means or foul, mainly the latter.

This is a denial of our basic right to have freedom of choice.

These same left leaning self serving nanny state apparatchiks can't actually win an argument based on true known scientific fact and logic so they use organisations like the BBC (which it has been acknowledged by the director general to been heavily infiltrated by left wing biased reporters, news editors and programme makers) to stifle opposition and counter argument which does not agree with their doctrine.
In this way they deny us the freedom of speech because the only platform is theirs.

Up until very recently the BBC, who find it impossible to predict next weeks weather with any degree of certainty but think that they can tell us what will happen in fifty years time, couldn't even show a local weather forecast without the words 'Global Warming' being freely bandied about in an arbitrary one sided fashion as a way of shoving us around and imposing their own flawed ideology on the rest of us.
Of course the 'Global 'Warming' theory is becoming widely discredited and 'Climate Change' has become the new stick with which to beat us, the deeply sceptical British public.

The 4x4 issue is but one facet of this culture of state bullying which is now endemic in British society, if the electorate in the UK had wanted to embrace a 'green' culture then they would have voted for such candidates in the recent general election but as it happens the Green Party have but one member of parliament.
The idea of scrapping ten year old cars sounds like yet another lunatic EU imposition, I know what mine and many others reactions are to being dictated to by an undemocratic bunch of unelected Brussels free loaders and it wouldn't be favourable.
One day they will push us just that teensy bit too far..........

 

[Lutz]

Just to get one thing straight. The suggestion to scrap cars older than 10 years did NOT come from the EU but from the car industry itself as an answer to what would be the most effective way of reducing total vehicle emissions. Obviously there was an ulterior motive behind the idea, that of boosting sales of new cars.
Turning to the other argument about the apparent threat to the right of freedom fo choice. There are just too many people today that exploit what they think is their God-given right to do as they please without consideration of the effect it may have on others. It's like smokers who maintain that what they do with their health is their own business, in plain disregard for the cost of treatments which have to be funded by us all. Quite frankly it makes me mad to know that some of my health contributions may be used for avoidable treatment of others.

 

[JonnyG]

Hi lutz.
"people today that exploit what they think is their God-given right to do as they please without consideration of the effect it may have on others".

trouble is where do you draw the line? smokers? people who eat unhealthy? people who do sports and get injured? people who do DIY and injure themselves? People who drive any type of vehicle that's polluting the actual air we need to breath, and which does indeed harm many people in the long term?
Where do we draw the line?We all have likes and dislikes,and they vary from person to person, what gives any group a right over another group?Whatever we do in life its almost impossible not to effect others,its also nearly impossible to actually step outside your own Area, without it causing offence to one group or another.
I recall heading for Italy once and being stopped by protesters at the foot of mont blanc, these were locals, protesting not just about HGVs mind you but holiday makers passing through there valley and polluting their neighbourhood!
Somebody will always be offended

 

[Parksy]

It's hardly surprising that the car industry would want cars to be scrapped after ten years

The most effective way of reducing vehicle emmissions would be to ban the use of cars but because the populace wouldn't stand for that the next best thing has been to try to regulate what sort of cars people can own and to marginalise the owners of those deemed not acceptable and then to make them impossible to own by taxing them out of existence.
The comparison of the rights of motorists to excersise freedom of choice with the so called 'right' of smokers to do as they please in spite of the cost to others doesn't stand scrutiny.
Motorists in this country contribute far more in monetary terms than they ever receive, a look at our third world pot holed road surfaces proves that.
At one time smokers also contributed heavily to the exchequer, this torrent of excise duty has dwindled to a trickle now so in effect motorists have become the new 'smokers'.
The end result is that a section of society becomes a cash cow. This is why in Britain it was vital to brainwash the public into believing that climate change is all their fault and that as a result they must pay disproportionate amounts of tax and excise duty.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

It's like smokers who maintain that what they do with their health is their own business, in plain disregard for the cost of treatments which have to be funded by us all.
　
But then where do you draw the line Lutz? Alcoholics with sclerosis of the liver, cost the NHS a small fortune, People that enjoy extreme sports, the chap down the road who enjoys his Sunday armature football and plays for his local team, but by doing so will most probably require surgery to his worn out joints in years to come, and don't forget those that choose to smoke pay heavily for the privilege in obscene taxes on a packet of cigarettes, unlike the drinker that gets his fix on cheap booze! then in a drunken state causes trouble in the city's around the country, then again costs us the tax payer even more money in extra policing, and no I am not a smoker, but those that are..................................enjoy, without you our taxes would most probably rise.

 

[JonnyG]

I dont think climate change is up for discussion is it?
I do recall when they used to talk about "global warming"though and how funny that was. Once they realised how stupid there notion was, they changed it to "climate change" something thats been happening here on earth for about 4 billion years!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Blimey all because some one asked why so many 4x4s.................Live and let live

 

[Lutz]

Global warming or not, climate change or not, but one thing should be plainly obvious to all - fossil fuels are not renewable forms of energy. Estimates of how long our oil reserves are going to last vary, but none go very much beyond the next 40 to 50 years, based on current forecasts of future world demand. It is still uncertain whether the development of alternative methods of propulsion will be ready in time. As we approach the end there will therefore undoubtedly be fierce competition between who gets what's left of the oil and the free market will inevitably result price levels beyond anything we can imagine today, even without any help from governments raising taxes any further. In order to delay this scenario as much as possible it is only sensible to reduce consumption today and a high level of fuel taxation is just one tool to help achieve the goal. It is therefore legitimate to ask whether fuel prices today are appropriate or not.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

you also state that you have plans for trips away totalling about 3 months roughly the same as we did last year however unlike you who go frequently on shorter trips we go for a long stay of several weeks at a time and thus less towing miles for me so lets leave it at that.

No i ain't leaving it at that ya ol' tyke

Here is our itinerary ...
1 week March
3 weeks May
4 weeks June/July
2 weeks July/August
2 weeksAugust/September
2 weeks September/October

I'm not sure what constitutes shorter trips, our shortest is one week, longest four. There was going to be a three weeker but have had to cancel that because of family commitments

Anyway, have a look at this site ... http://www.wolfvalleyenterprises.co.uk/caravanSite.html
... you'll be a happier bunny when you can dangle your worm again .. heh! heh! heh!

OK then LB one last summary:-
last year got the van out 1st of may down the M5 visited somerset, dorset devon, then down to our favorite st austell in cornwall stayed there 4 weeks then meandered back up the M5.on the 21st of august so the wife could attend hospital for surgury do the sums yourself but thats about 14 weeks, minus 1and a half weeks when the car had to be brought home due to being damaged in a carpark in bude, the last trip 3weeks in callander due in late sepember/october had to be cancelled due to the wife not being fit enough to go after the op. that would have been 17weeks away in the van in only two trips,
thanks for the info re wolf valley I had looked at it before but the cost was a bit high they quoted £12 per night but that did not include extras the fishing is not free because it is acctualy a sydicated water the best lake is reserved for this purpose campers can fish the other lakes at a cost of between £10 and £15 per day, OUCH!!!!

 

[JonnyG]

Hi lutz.

I entirely agree with your last post, but resources and how much oil we have left,has nothing to do with "climate change" so why do the powers that be harp on about "climate change"? Surely they should just say we are running out of oil, and we need to conserve.
Instead they harp on about climate change being the "real issue" instead of resources.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

parksy.
please do not take this as a criticism but only as a OBSERVATION,
in your last post you used lefty or green 5 times and hostility of sorts 7 times without mentioning right wing alternatives or caravans once.
this sounds very political to me. but that can't be right can it we dont do politics on here do we?? or is a bit of lefty bashing ok and in good fun?? and of course writen by a 4x4 owner.

End of obervation.

We all suffer from motoring costs brought on by green issues of that there is no doubt the price of diesel is the same for every one at the pumps. We all have to drive on potholed filled roads too but I would suggest that is more of an issue for non 4x4 owners. Insurance went up 37% this year no matter what you drive. The vat increase hurts every one but the least well off the most and the budget is also just around the corner, no doubt will make things worse for all motorists. And there isn't a lefty amongst them but there are a few green ones though.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Well I reckon we should limit ourselves on the consumption of milk. By drinking milk and using it in food it adds to global pollution through the cows flattulence. Reduce the cattle herds I say by reducing our intake. Infact since i learned of cows emissions I've been able to control my own eruptions to just twice a day. Sadly Her Ladyship has no will power and refuses to listen to me

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

OMGGGGG not another directive from those buffoons in Brussells, or even Strasbourg, depending where they happen to be at the time with their hair brained schemes. Is there no end to their idiocy. I would have learned my lesson over the fish stocks fiasco but still they impose their liberal wet views over eneryone .. GRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Please God get us out of there and let me die happy

I realise that this isn't a 4x4 issue but it is a driving issue.
Those meddling buffoons in Brussels have now said it's illegal to charge a young man more insurance than a young woman.
And what grounds did they decide this? Yes, equality. I thought it was these stupid morons that introduce diversity.
Yet again we are being dictated to by unelected ******s from overseas. Is there a day that goes by without they've had some negative affect on our lives probably starting with the bent bananas?

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

 

[Parksy]

parksy.
please do not take this as a criticism but only as a OBSERVATION,
in your last post you used lefty or green 5 times and hostility of sorts 7 times without mentioning right wing alternatives or caravans once.
this sounds very political to me. but that can't be right can it we dont do politics on here do we?? or is a bit of lefty bashing ok and in good fun?? and of course writen by a 4x4 owner.

End of obervation.

Colin
Here are some more 'observations' for you to consider.

1 ) This topic isn't about caravans.

2 ) As far as I'm aware the so-called right wing in so far as it exists hasn't tried to dictate what sort of car I should be allowed to choose. If and when they do they will come in for equal criticism from me.
Those who appear to follow a more left wing agenda have which is why I have mentioned them in particular.

3 ) You could be right about what you consider to be my 'hostility' because I am naturally inclined to be predisposed to hostility towards anybody who tries to impose their ideological will over my freedom to choose for myself an appropriate vehicle with which to pursue my chosen hobby of caravanning in the sort of caravan that I like. (There, I even mentioned caravans twice for you

)

4) Any 'bashing' that you feel that I've done would apply equally to any politician or political party of any persuasion who followed policies which directly affected me but which there was no mandate for, but my perceived hostility and contempt is especially venomous towards the unelected elements who have managed to steer this country into seemingly accepting complete sole responsibility for global pollution, climate change, whatever it is that these same people will think of next in order to shove us around and bully us.
5)When the Americans, Indians and Chinese start to cut right back on their pollution and over consumption of resources then I might just consider following suit, but only when all UK government ministers use public transport or useless electric cars at all times.

My final observation is in reply to your observation about us 'doing politics on here'.
I didn't start this topic and I've never tried to hide the fact that I use a 4x4, in fact I'm proud to say that I actually own two 4x4's but I'm going to sell one of them

I didn't introduce the idea that 4x4 owners had to justify their choice, in fact you did Colin.
All that I've done is to answer points already made by others, it's up to you whether or not you agree or disagree with me because quite frankly I don't give a monkey's either way.
Be assured that my points are in good fun but I'm as entitled to my opinions as you are to yours so there you go, now you've introduced 'politics' into the mix by writing that 'it all sounds very political ' to you.
It all sounds very much like you have no valid counter argument to me

 

[TD42]

Can I say why they are called CHELSEA tractors ,& why Londoners got so pi===ed of with them
My area of work was Chelsea,kenninton,mayfair ect I was a mobile lift service engineer. It was almost impossible to get from A to B due to traffic conditions mainly caused a very high percentage of women in very unsuitable for the areas 4X4s mainly on the school runs.
On one occasion a total blockage of Kings road Chelsea that took over an hour to clear,caused by a woman trying to do a 3 point turn in a new Range Rover & talk on a mobile phone at the same time.I have no doubt whatsoever that it was this faction that A caused the increased taxation of the 4X4 & B finely the initiation of the congestion charge in the west of London.
personly I have nothing against people who have a Genuine need for a 4X4 BUT the change in attitude to the CHELSEA tractor was caused by irresponsable owners of Bling seeking idiots who caused & unfortunatly still cause problems in heavily conngested areas
If I could afford to own a 4X4 just for towjng my 1350kg caravan I might own one BUT my 2.2 deisel 40mpg car is perfectly capable of pulling the caravan & serve as a economical day to day transport

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Spot on TD42 but the only problem is those on forums who oppose 4x4s for any reason use the 'Chelsea tractor' term in a derogatory way to get at those who use them to tow.
Protesting about something is as old as the hills and the only thing that doesn't change is that they are normally left wing liberals. The dress codes have changed somewhat. Remember the CND marchers wearing their obligatory duffle coats etc.
By the time of Greenham Common the dress code had changed to anything artyfarty, multi-coloured dreadlocks, piercings, facial hair etc. and that was just the women.
These people are usually well educated and are ex-university. To show their thanks to their parents in providing for them during this time they opt out of society, become full time protesters and live off the state. Waccy baccy and magic mushrooms have a lot to answer for. They will never be without something to do because if there was nothing to complain about they would protest about protesters.
I must add that I can identify with the term 'Chelsea tractor' because I know two couples where they have a normal car as well as a 4x4. In both cases the hubby uses the car for work and the wife uses the 4x4 for school, shopping etc. There is no real reason why they need one.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Getting back to OP's question:
Why so many 4X4s?
Because they are available and sone peopel like them!

Whether they are justified, that is another question, and probaly best not discussed here.

 

[Surfer]

but none go very much beyond the next 40 to 50 years, based on current forecasts of future world demand.

There are enough reserves for another 2000 years! Do some research on the untapped fields in the USA like South Dakota etc. If every one switched to electric cars tomorrow the government would need to replace that revenue stream with another revenue stream so elsewhere taxes will increase and there wil be further cutbacks with the NHS being affected the most.