Why so many 4X4s?

[Lord Braykewynde]

Colin
Here are some more 'observations' for you to consider.

Take no notice of the ol' tyke Parksy. It's the time of year and he's suffering with maggot de-toxication. This condition only affects fine weather anglers but as the days become lighter it does lessen somewhat although sufferers have a slight set back on March 31st.
Come June 16th and this debillitating mental condition vanishes. Just the thought of putting their hands in a bucket of maggots or the first cast to dangle their worm has miracle affects on their psychic energy. To see these people you need to be up at daybreak but it is a magical sight to see them skipping through the dew wet grass, eyes to the heavens, talking to themselves while lugging their trollies behind them.
I've had it on good authority that when the ol' tykes euphoria is at it's most intense he's been known to approach a 4x4 owner and hug them whilst giving them a posey

BTW ya ol' tyke, we are going to St. Austell for 4 weeks this year

 

[Lutz]

There are enough reserves for another 2000 years! Do some research on the untapped fields in the USA like South Dakota etc.

That still doesn't justify squandering our resources as though they were going out of fashion tomorrow. Besides, much of the yet untapped sources require extremely costly methods of extraction in order to get at them.

If every one switched to electric cars tomorrow the government would need to replace that revenue stream with another revenue stream so elsewhere taxes will increase and there wil be further cutbacks with the NHS being affected the most.

There's no denying that what you say is true although electric cars aren't the answer either as a good proportion of our electricity is produced using non-renewable energy sources.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

parksy
OK then can of worms opened lets see how far this goes "tounge in cheek"
Every time a political debate opens up on this forum ie veiws expressed from both side of the divide it is immeadatly jumped on by the mods with posts deleted topics locked or whole threads made to dissapear any debate that seems to be going this way gets intrervention of some kind 4x4 topics seem paticulary vunerable to this. It seems on the face of it as long as the posts are bais and one sided ie a bit of lefty bashing this is ok. But as soon as others voice a difference of oppinion the topic is stopped. I could go into the archives of old threads to illustrate this but dont want to we all know this is fact The mods tell us in such circumstances that this is a caravan forum and not a political forum if posters want to debate politics go elsewhere.
this is fine but it should be a double edged sword unfortuatly this is not the case because both mods are 4x4 owners with their own oppinions and views to either express or not as they feel fit so who moderates the mods? any counter arguement is a waste of time as you are allways playing the referee as well as the opposing team.
you stateted "It all sounds very much like you have no valid counter argument to me" I could have but why bother it would be like picking a fight with Mike Tyson with one hand tied behind your back.
All I have done is is made a observation that the post you made seemed political in content and that in other circumstances could be deemed as inapropreate for the forum.
"now you've introduced 'politics' into the mix by writing that 'it all sounds very political ' to you." Good move I like that.shift the blame and disguise the transgression Brilliant.

 

[John_374564913]

To All

First let me start by saying I have owned a 4X4 and now drive a sallon car so it is fair to say I have had a foot in both camps.
The question was why are there so many 4X4 Vehicles.
Well it is fair to say they give a good high driving position and by their nature give a sense of security to the driver, due both to there size and build type whether it is a false sense of security or not I am not going to debate but I think if we are honest with ourselves we will agree that it is the case driving a 4X4 does give a driver the feel of security.
I also think this boils over to the caravan aspect driving the secure 4x4 carries over that it must also be more secure towing a caravan as it is big well built and high driving position, once again this is not raising a debate just a fair assesment of what peoples thoughts are regarding 4X4s.
Now is it the fault of the 4x4 drivers that they consume more I am not sure I think it would be unfair to say it was though.
I am sure if manufactureres built a vehicle with a high driving position in 2WD format with the consumption of a Mini car and most importantly capable of towing the heaviest caravan on the market today. the majority of 4x4 caravan owners would buy one.
However I dont think this would affect the buyers of Range rovers and BMWs and such who dont tow I think thewy are beyond help and we must all accept what they do.
With regards to consumption and climatte change I will not go into this debaate except for saying that it is a fact that under yellowstone national park there is a volcano we know it will errupt we know we can do nothing about it and we know when it does errupt 75% of the worlds surface will be thrown back into the ICE age, so why should I discuss or argue the climate change aspect.
The debate on conserving fuel again this is something I do not wish to debate because in my opiniuon the answer is obvious the development of Hydrogen which is a renewable energy giving almost the same results as the fosil fuels we currently use.
Why do we not develop it more or quicker as the Governments or petrol companies NOT THE POOR PEOPLE WHO TOW THERE CARAVANS WITH A 4X4.
This is all I have to say on the subject
(Forest Gump)

 

[Parksy]

Apologies to the OP for going off topic in order to get one or two things straight.

parksy
OK then can of worms opened lets see how far this goes "tounge in cheek"
Every time a political debate opens up on this forum ie veiws expressed from both side of the divide it is immeadatly jumped on by the mods with posts deleted topics locked or whole threads made to dissapear any debate that seems to be going this way gets intrervention of some kind 4x4 topics seem paticulary vunerable to this. It seems on the face of it as long as the posts are bais and one sided ie a bit of lefty bashing this is ok. But as soon as others voice a difference of oppinion the topic is stopped. I could go into the archives of old threads to illustrate this but dont want to we all know this is fact The mods tell us in such circumstances that this is a caravan forum and not a political forum if posters want to debate politics go elsewhere.

It's not really 'tongue in cheek' though is it Colin?
I had a feeling that you would soon turn what could have been a reasonably interesting debate into a 'moderator bashing' session.
You really don't enjoy anybody not agreeing with your assertions do you?
As far as topics being stopped because of different opinions you are yet again making more unsubstantiated statements but no matter because nothing that I could write would convince you otherwise.

I knew when I challenged your earlier statement which read:
What gets me is the owners of 4x4s who seem to have to justify why they have one? an inch of snow or a fortnight of rain and its out with the look how good my car is backed up with claims of my car polutes less than a ka on a short run down to the shops and someone allways complains about the cost, turning any sensible debate into a slanging match about treehuggers and unfair tax systems.
that you wouldn't be able to defend you statement rationally or fairly.

It would seem that you much prefer to turn what could have been a 'sensible debate' into a diartribe against me, fair enough, good tactic to stop me disagreeing with what you had written earlier.

this is fine but it should be a double edged sword unfortuatly this is not the case because both mods are 4x4 owners with their own oppinions and views to either express or not as they feel fit so who moderates the mods? any counter arguement is a waste of time as you are allways playing the referee as well as the opposing team.
you stateted "It all sounds very much like you have no valid counter argument to me" I could have but why bother it would be like picking a fight with Mike Tyson with one hand tied behind your back.
All I have done is is made a observation that the post you made seemed political in content and that in other circumstances could be deemed as inapropreate for the forum.

I haven't moderated this topic in any way shape or form Colin and I wouldn't and never have moderated on debates in which I'd played an active part.
If you knew me you would have known this. I am a member of several caravan related forums and I rarely if ever take part in contentious debates on those either.

"now you've introduced 'politics' into the mix by writing that 'it all sounds very political ' to you." Good move I like that.shift the blame and disguise the transgression Brilliant.

It would help if you were able to recognise when another person was trying to joke with you Colin.

Because you have decided to start trying to give me grief as a moderator rather than trying to prove or substantiate your earlier sweeping generalisations about 4x4 owners I've decided that trying to hold any sort of conversation or debate with you other than as a forum moderator is not really worth the effort.

I will no longer attempt to participate in any debate in which you have already posted so if you like you can tell yourself that you have won if it makes you feel better.
If I have entered my own comments to a topic before you have managed to add some sort of contribution then you will have to live with it I'm afraid.

By the way, for your future information the 'no politics' embargo on the old forum was done in order to stop the forum as it was back then looking like a recruiting website for extremist political parties. Most of the inappropriate comments which were deleted at that time centered around genocide, immigration, ethnic minorities etc; but at the same time efforts were made to curtail the aggressive 'bear pit' atmosphere of the old forum.
A few feathers were ruffled, a few old faces disappeared but if nothing had been done to halt the slide at that time then it's doubtful whether Haymarket would ever have decided to invest in this new revamped forum and website.

Run of the mill 'political' comments made in the course of ordinary forum debate were left alone whenever possible but unfortunately heated arguments did nothing to enhance the reputation of Practical Caravan forum.

The resources available to mods on the old forum were severely limited which also contributed to the 'no politics' ruling which incidentally was done with the knowledge and approval of the owners and administrators of this forum at that time.

Things have moved on since the upgrade to this new forum and website and I'm happy to say that moderators have more than enough resources to manage and help to run this forum effectively.

There have been several so-called 'political' comments on this new forum but if you want to continue to live in the past Colin, so be it.

 

[JonnyG]

"There are enough reserves for another 2000 years! Do some research on the untapped fields in the USA like South Dakota etc."

Is there really? Well i didn't know that, but then there could be enough oil for 5000 years but it aint getting cheaper to tap into is it.
We used all the easily to get to stuff, and from now on it gets more difficult to get to and more dangerous too.
Short memory? BP just been busted yet again, firstly in Alaska and now in the Mexican gulf. If the oil giants cannot get to the stuff, or risk being sued mega billions in the process, then 2000 or 5000 years worth of the stuff being hidden under our planet aint going to make a difference, its in short supply and the supplies are getting shorter,but the list of people wanting it is getting longer and longer and longer.and what makes you think we are going to stay at the front of the queue.

 

[Lutz]

Well said, JonnyG. They way the Chinese (and others) are becoming ever greedier for oil, I can imagine that they are going to make darned sure that they stay at the front of the queue, if necessary at our expense. The United States has already been engaged in armed conflict in order to ensure continued supplies and there is no reason to suppose that others won't follow suit.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

I can remember back in the early 70 s when we were all issued with ww2 ration books, think that was something to do with imminent fuel shortage, cant quite remember the details, can any one enlighten?

 

[Dustydog]

The 1973 Oil Crisis caused by the warring factions of Egypt & Syria who attacked Israel without warning.
OPEC members then increased a barrel of oil by 70%
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

Apologies to the OP for going off topic in order to get one or two things straight.

good idea parksy lets do that once and for all you have written your veiws and oppinions on the subject so here are mine in unabridged form my appologies if this takes a little time.

"I had a feeling that you would soon turn what could have been a reasonably interesting debate into a 'moderator bashing' session".
In my view a moderator is like a referee he/she watches the play stays impartial makes desicisions based on current events and then imposes sanctions if the rules are breached but above all does not get involved in the game. if the referee/moderator however picks up the ball and engages in the play it becomes apparent that the game is no longer equal and then becomes one sided. In effect one team "if that is the right terminology" is now playing the referee as well as the opposing team.
in my oppinion the post you made refering to the problems of owning a 4x4 was due to the greenies and the lefties and made no misstake as to which side of the arguement you stand on, It was clearly an attack on people with a left of centre believe one of which am I, this in its self is not new it seems at times that members of the forum stack up to do a bit of lefty bashing as a matter of course it does get tiresome after a while and the reason myself and others with similar views no longer rise to the bait. however when a moderator aires the same views I believe it is only right to comment on it. This is all I have done, if that is taken as moderator bashing so be it.

I knew when I challenged your earlier statement which read:
What gets me is the owners of 4x4s who seem to have to justify why they have one? an inch of snow or a fortnight of rain and its out with the look how good my car is backed up with claims of my car polutes less than a ka on a short run down to the shops and someone allways complains about the cost, turning any sensible debate into a slanging match about treehuggers and unfair tax systems.
that you wouldn't be able to defend you statement rationally or fairly.

good point so I took the trouble to look back into past treads and in 15mins found the following all the names have been deleted so I dont upset any one else??

1.Isn't it strange how, for most of the year, us 4x4 drivers are seen as the devil incarnate? That is, until it snows, then we're everyone's friend!
2.On a 4 x 4 forum one fo the drivers went to help some poor guy stuck in a ditch. As he was about to hook up he spotted a sticker on the back window calling for a ban on all 4 x 4s. He was so annoyed that he packed away the tow rope and left the driver there!
3.A slight touch of envy, perhaps? As you and I know the running cost difference is minimal

4.So you wont find envy from my quarter, but I do wonder why you feel the need to use such an inaccurate statement anywayno one has to "justify" the type vehicle they choose to own.
5.I think what happens with these 4 x 4 threads is that the anit 4 x 4 lot suddenly come out hibernation and find themselves with something to complain about.
6.drive a 4 x 4 , i can afford to drive a 4 x 4, get over it.
7. 4 X 4 for ever + sleep sound in your beds all you whingers!
8.Of course if 2wd cars were banned and everyone had 4X4 less people would be stuck in winter weather and more work would get done Seems like a good idea to me

I could not find the one which stated that a 4x4 emits less co2 than a ka on a short run or the one which stated people who dont like 4x4s were just jealous because I drive a better car than they do. because I ranout of minutes on my dongle.

I haven't moderated this topic in any way shape or form Colin and I wouldn't and never have moderated on debates in which I'd played an active part.

this is true however not really the point your avatar clearly displayes the words "moderator" so posters know who you are, this gives the impression of authority and adds weight to one side of the discussion it also gives creedence for others to follow suit in the same vane and lending any counter argument worthless.

Because you have decided to start trying to give me grief as a moderator rather than trying to prove or substantiate your earlier sweeping generalisations about 4x4 owners I've decided that trying to hold any sort of conversation or debate with you other than as a forum moderator is not really worth the effort.
I will no longer attempt to participate in any debate in which you have already posted so if you like you can tell yourself that you have won if it makes you feel better.
no it does not make me feel better but if that is your desicion so be it

By the way, for your future information the 'no politics' embargo on the old forum was done in order to stop the forum as it was back then looking like a recruiting website for extremist political parties.
There have been several so-called 'political' comments on this new forum but if you want to continue to live in the past Colin, so be it.

this is not strictly true is it a debate on the new forum was scrapped and you crealy went on record saying this is a caravan forum and politcal debates can be done elsewhere on other forums that cater for this so if you want to debate politics go there.
if I have time to find the comments I will be happy to post them if required.
sorry for the long reply but I do have that right.

colin

 

[Parksy]

Yeah - whatever

 

[JonnyG]

Your Lordship, i felt this deserved an educated reply......

"It also makes me laugh when people try to lecture others about polluting the environment when they are involved in the lorry transport business. Talk about pots and kettles

"

How exactly do you suggest we go about our bussiness ? carry it on our backs?Trains arent an option.
We use the most upto date fleet of lorries you can have, and they are as clean if not cleaner than some of the stuff coming out of your and indeed my cars exhaust. CO2 ok is much higher but how do you suggest we get around this? What do you drive?A Sorento, ok, we would need between 6 to 8 of these vehicles to replace each of our lorries,and fitt trailers as well.
Our lorries do between 12 and 16 mile per gallon, so if we were to use something that on paper seems more envirenmentally friendly like say your sorento, then because of the amount of these cars we would need, they would need to do at least 96mpg to just be as environmentally friendly as our lorries are too move loads!
we are indeed being extremely environment friendly, given all the option available to us. nothing "rich" about that,nor indeed "pots and kettles"

You also mention someone called BONO? "in the name of love" who on earth is he? but if he paid £1000 to put his hat on a regular flight, whats so bad about that? the plane was going to fly "with or without you" sorry his hat so it sounds like he used common sense.
What would have been stupid was if he had chartered a plane solely for his hat........

 

[scooby301]

I have been following the threads on this forum along with letters in the CC magazine with avid interest and over the last few months suddenly realised that we must be one of the most hated when we turn up on site.
No1 We drive a 4 x 4
No2 We have a twin axle caravan
No3 We have children
No4 We can only get away during the weekends and school holidays.

It's comforting to know that being new to caravanning we have done everything right. lol.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

It's comforting to know that being new to caravanning we have done everything right. lol.

Do you have a dog????? Or even better more than one

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Your Lordship, i felt this deserved an educated reply......
Trains arent an option.

Educated????????
Not with c**p like that statement. As I pointed out the road lobby is very strong in this country with its tendrils into many areas of politics. If trains aren't an option go and stand on any railway station on the continent and it will open your eyes. Avignon, Narbonne, Lyon and Montpelier are just a few to start with. At Avignon for example freight trains are running two abreast and some must be 3/4 of a mile long. On the back of some of these trains are lorry trailers already loaded heading north, probably to the channel ports where they are then attached to tractor units to carry on their journey to the UK. I'm sure if this can be done on the continent it's quite feasible to do it here. At least Steady Eddy thinks so. No doubt the road lobby have their smelly tendrils in the anti HS2 lobby, even to funding it. I bet their anal sphincters are fibrillating at the thought of it being built.

 

[Parksy]

I have been following the threads on this forum along with letters in the CC magazine with avid interest and over the last few months suddenly realised that we must be one of the most hated when we turn up on site.
No1 We drive a 4 x 4
No2 We have a twin axle caravan
No3 We have children
No4 We can only get away during the weekends and school holidays.

It's comforting to know that being new to caravanning we have done everything right. lol.

Take no notice scooby, no matter what you do there will be those who can't differentiate between fact and fiction as a browse through this topic will show.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

Our lorries do between 12 and 16 mile per gallon,

"Wow" they must be good jonny thats about the same MPG that I used to get out of the motorhome, the tub I drove at work did about 10MPG on a good day and that only carried 8 tonne well I say tub it was acctually 10mths old in 2009. what sort are they?

 

[JonnyG]

Your Lordship, i felt this deserved an educated reply......
Trains arent an option.

Educated????????
Not with c**p like that statement. As I pointed out the road lobby is very strong in this country with its tendrils into many areas of politics. If trains aren't an option go and stand on any railway station on the continent and it will open your eyes. Avignon, Narbonne, Lyon and Montpelier are just a few to start with. At Avignon for example freight trains are running two abreast and some must be 3/4 of a mile long. On the back of some of these trains are lorry trailers already loaded heading north, probably to the channel ports where they are then attached to tractor units to carry on their journey to the UK. I'm sure if this can be done on the continent it's quite feasible to do it here. At least Steady Eddy thinks so. No doubt the road lobby have their smelly tendrils in the anti HS2 lobby, even to funding it. I bet their anal sphincters are fibrillating at the thought of it being built.

my or my, how simply you make it all sound your lordship, and no doubt it we ever do have to travel across the waters to frenchie land then that could be a possibility!
but at the moment I am looking at the train schedules for getting our lorries on site for Monday. we are collecting locally this afternoon. 3 lorries are heading towards the London area ,Exel arena Olympic site and a construction a site in kingstone upon thames. No just checked no options available they don't appear to stop at Leicester! maybe we could drive down to Northampton to load them up? hire a company to off load them down south and deliver them for us! so that's 100 miles we do going down to Northampton,and back and maybe a firm we can find and hire to do the job for us, could also have to do the same type of mileage too! So no savings on pollution there, but hey we go bust paying for the other haulier and not forgetting the train company and the extra hours involved in handling and possibly night outs for the drivers so they can be on site for 8am Monday!

When I said trains are not an option, i can only assume you get pictures of 40 tonnes driving from Dover to Scotland! 50% of our haulage simply cannot be done by trains, regardless of if the railway lines were upgraded and the traction units actually all had new diesel engines in them.
ATM a fare few trains are still running ancient diesel lumps, that pollute far far worse than any other transportation system! don't mix up getting lorries off the road and onto the railway with it be a cleaner system right from the off, your Lordship.because it wouldn't be, it would need huge huge investment, and like I said for many hauliers it still wouldn't be an option regardless of how you see things.

 

[JonnyG]

14 and 16 tonner renaults and mecs. 26 tonner renault and mercs. the 14 tonner [renault] can carry 8 tonnes too, and is a 2008! has a 66 gallon tank and did 1000 miles on a tank last week! or to be preciese 950 miles but still had some litres left in when refilled! our merc 26 tonnes does 12 mpg.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

my or my, how simply you make it all sound your lordship, and no doubt it we ever do have to travel across the waters to frenchie land then that could be a possibility!

No more an answer than I expected

You are right in one thing and one thing only. It would need massive investment but this is because the railways of this country have been run down unlike those of Germany or France.
If you read my post I was referring to the future and lessons could have been learned from the Germans and French years ago. Slowly the infrastructure is being built but what I mentioned is what's left of todays lines couldn't cope. The resurgence in train travel means the lines are cluttered with passenger trains at the moment.
I must admit you did give me a good laugh and a nostalgia trip mentioning those 'ancient diesel lumps'

Some of those ancient lumps that are still running I actually worked on in the 60s. What lifespan does a lorry have? The Brush/Sulzers 4s and English Electric 3s are now used on special traffic as I understand it but are now 50 years old. I recall men at the time saying the spam cans wouldn't last as long as a steam locomotive.
The later types, 4000hp, obviously do have emmissions (common sense) just as lorries do but one of those locomotives will pull the load of 60 lorries. Electrification is the way to go and the Paddington-Cardiff line is now to be electrified. Not something they would do if they believed there was no future in rail and you can guarantee that they will want the best return on the money and that isn't going to happen with passengers alone.
As I've said, the road lobby in this country is all powerful and no doubt a lot of money crosses palms with those who have influence in deciding transport matters or bankrolling future MPs who sing to their hymn sheet but this latest government seem to be above that as can be seen by their enthusiasm for HS2. Maybe they've been studying the French or German systems and have finally seen the light through the smog of our motorways

Again I'm not stupid enough to believe that rail can deliver to the door but it can deliver to city railheads for local road tractor units to deliver it locally. Maybe the E.U. will give us the money to rebuild the infrastructure and then I will be able to say that at last they've done some good for the country

I see Tesco's even have their own rolling stock now and they say it saves them 20,000 lorry journeys. They are even using barges between Liverpool and Manchester to move produce.
Be afraid, it's coming. Get out now while you can. You have your caravan and it's not hard work whittling clothes pegs to earn a shilling. Do as I do, get the missus to go around the doors flogging them.

 

[JonnyG]

Your lordship, you seem to believe I have a problem moving from road transportation to rail or barges, I don't.
I would love to do something else, but I am actually pretty good at what I do, or so I am told.
I would love to see less and less haulage transportation using our congested roads, and to be fair it still would have no impact on the type of goods/services we do, and many many other hauliers do too.
Yes people like stobberts, who have the contracts for companies like tesco,and which incidentally is nothing like our business, can and should use the railways,again where possible and where profitable moving from hub to hub, and its great that they do.
I responded, merely because you claimed "its rich" that somebody from the transport industry, bla bla bla. Which correct me if i am wrong was aimed at me.
Since then I have tried to explain that you cannot merely apply the same short sighted reasoning to all aspects of any industry.
We wont ever be using trains for our type of haulage, simply impracticable, so we do what we can to minimise our effect.
We used to work for serco, who until last year had a certain contract to do with railways, we also do work for Bombardier both based Derby.
The Amount of OLD style engines that we have taken to Peterborough,for reconditioning, I cannot even recall, but if this wast he road haulage industry, we would not be able to get away with it, certainly not when travelling into London, which these train engines still do.
Even given trains larger payloads the amount of these ancient engines that are still in use is amazing and I have to say, I would be really interested in knowing how they really stack up on an environmental scorecard to the modern motors we are forced to use to go into London, and no doubt other major cities when they all follow the London's low emissions lead.and don't forget when these loads are off loaded, they still have to go back onto lorries anyway, into the heavily congested and heavily populated towns and cities of our shores.
So trains arent exactly helping with anything pollution wise where people mainly live, just the in-between places

So thanks for the clothes peg idea, should be able to move a fair few of them alonside the main trainlines going into london, just need to buy a biggar lorry to carry them all in.........

 

[Icemaker]

you are wasting your breath lord b even trying to explain about the railways to anyone who has a road transport interest, lorries are the bain of most peoples lives BUT we do unfortunately need some of them for the final trip from cargo hub to the shops.
what we dont need is the stupidity of lorries traveling all the way from scotland to portsmouth then on to a ferry and then continuing through france and on in to the rest of europe or even lorries doing manchester to london its a stupid waste of fuel and time.
As most are aware on this forum i drive trains for a living and in the past 10 years we ahve seen a massive increase in passenger numbers and a ten fold increase in freight traffic, rather than going to see the effect in france just go to preston or any other west or east coast main line any night of the week after midnight and see how many 60 wagon trains pass through, as a passenger driver after midnight on an empty stock movement from preston i have to go the long way round to make way for freight ! it really is that busy.
Tesco where the first major supermarket to go by rail using DRS rail services to haul hired in wagons and using DRS loco's (class 66) manned by DRS staff, it was such a success that eddie stobart (tesco's haulier) now has his own rail division, asda have followed suite and now haul a considerable amount of produce by rail, last month a new contract was signed by freightliner rail to haul coal, it is estimated to be saving 33.000 lorries journeys a year ! cosidering these trains can and do get loaded to a max of 3000 tons you can see how much better the train is than the lorry, it would take 75, 40 ton lorries to move the equivelent of 1 train ! fuel wise the class 66 fully laden at 3000 tons on full power does 1.25 miles to the gallon however once it is up to speed which does not take long the power is closed off to idle or just above and the weight of the trains is enough to keep it rolling, it is estimated that a class 66 averages around 20 mpg due to this effect at 3000 tons.
i have the same with my passenger trains, one of our trains the adelante class 180 is a 125 mph 5 coach train with 3500 bhp from 5 cummins 8 cylinder diesels again this train on full power only does about 1.5 miles to the gallon but once at full speed (125) i close the throtle and coast for mile on mile, on our older class 150 stock from bolton to salford we have the trains on almost full power all the way whereas the class 180 we actually have to use the brake to keep us below max line speed again its the weight keeping us going.
electrification is another option as you say and it has just been agreed and signed up to that network rail are electrifying the line from manchester victoria to liverpool ( the original and first passenger line in the country) and the manchester to preston line via bolton and chorley and the line from preston to blackpool, it is also muted that plans are in place to re- electrify the line from victoria to guide bridge via ashton moss with a future view to re open the woodhead freight route, a consortium is currently fighting to open a "lorries on trains" rail link from dover to liverpool using the east coast line then over woodhead through victoria and down the chat moss to liverpool docks with various drop off points along the route including machester at ordsall lane near the old patricroft steam depot.
from the inside the future of rail is looking very rosy esspecially since all the political parties have seen the light as to how good a transport system it really can be, as for lorries ! well i don't like it either but another potential 4 pence on the price of fuel in the next budget plus all the chat about the bank of england putting the base rate up on the 10th (ive heard mutterings of it being a full 1 % rise) may just be a final nail in the coffin for a lot, i feel for the drivers and loaders but dont despair too much there will be loads of vacancies on the railways.

 

[Icemaker]

sorry forgot to mention about the barges, now that is an impressive sight, ive seen them on one occasion as i was taking a train over chat moss, really strange to think that i was driving on the oldest passenger line in the uk and i was watching a barge being used commercially on the canal next to me

. the barges at the moment are bringing wine from liverpool to manchester, we also have a new company just putting in a licence application to run "water buses" from the city center to the trafford center and on to media city on the river irwell and manchester ship canal.

 

[JonnyG]

I see Gary, "waste of time explaining things to someone who has a "vested interest in road haulage"
We agree on so many aspects.but your conclusions of what is what is so short-sighted to say the least. it doesn't seem to take into account the numerous scenario, involved in transportation, just getting from one train station to another! like nothing else matters or counts,It would appear you seem to base everything the in-between bits that you do!
Maybe you'd like to show me some costings of getting things from a customer to their customer? or does none of that matter.
When was the last time you worked out a delivery schedule, so things can actually get to where they need be at the right time?
"All haulage going between London and even Manchester should go on a train"
Another ridiculous ill informed generalisation! Maybe more should do that but ALL! can you not actually see how improbable and impracticable that would be,No?
Personally I don't think you could explain things to someone with a vested interest in haulage,you know why?haulage isnt a free service,Time costs money! Tell you what,show me, show me how you would make arrangements to collect something from central London and deliver it to Manchester.Or is it just a case of put it on my train! Thats not actually the full story is it.
For you who only do the in-between bits it might seem so simple, so easy, so straightforward, so based on your vested interest of trains.
It takes into account nothing more than station to station, not the collection point not the delivery point, and none of the costs,or when it needs to be collected and delivered! That not how haulage works regardless of what method is used.
How about showing me how or why ALL haulage between London and Manchester should go on trains,here is a straightforward everyday occurrence.
Pick up is say 7am in London[that's when the stuff is actually ready for collection] and deliever time is say 3 pm.. cost the job then comeback and repeat those wise words "vested interest" or "all freight between London and Manchester should go by train.
Could you actually arrange pick up at 7am or does none of that come into you equations and get it onto a train to Manchester and off loaded and delivered by 3pm?or is the inbetwen bit all you seem to think is important?
I know i could do that arrangement, and doubt you could pick the load up at 7am and get it their by 3pm,and if by some miracle you could get freight trains to wait for you to deliver the load, and could make arrangements for its off loading and delivery in Manchester, what would be the cost? twice what I could do it for? or 3 times?
How practical would that be, and again i strongly doubt you could do it anyway.

I am sorry Garry not all haulage fits into that nice cliché of tesco and asda, and pricing is important as is timed deliver and the fact that we still pick up and deliver the vast majority of stuff no matter what.

"vested interest"funny

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

So how come they seem to manage it in countries like France and Germany but it's impossible to do here?
Now think on that and get off the computer and stop sciving. I thought you had work to do

Patties Posies flowers will be dead by the time you get them to her .