Wing mirror bingo

[Michael_5123947]

Firstly thanks to all who suggested the milenco grand aero mirrors for sorento - really good.

Secondly, why aren't some people using mirrors. Was following a caravan on M4 last week and he was all over the inside lane. I worked out he wasn't using wing mirrors and was jerking his car so that he could see whether he could overtake. He misjudged it at one point and caused the car in second lane to brake fairly sharply.

I then did my own version of 'wing mirror bingo' on caravans coming the other way - just three sets of ten caravans. In the first sample 40% had no wing mirrors, 30% in the second and they all had them in the last. This must contribute to accidents and the bad press that caravanners receive and you have to say that if this is the case the publicity is justified. In todays CCTV society perhaps we need the police to do a crack down.

Do your own survey and post results - be very interesting!

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Michael

The trouble is these idiots don't read the caravan mags or web site forums.Nor do they know the law.

Cheers

Alan

 

[Chaps]

Quite a few of our friends tow without mirrors, assuming, very wrongly in our opinion, that their big 4x4 vehicles already have adequate mirrors. We find that the passenger side mirror on our Zafira is perfectly adequate for seeing behind us but we still use a tow mirror to add the extra width to the car to help judge how wide our caravan is when negotiating gaps etc. The driver's side mirror is a must both legally and to allow adequate rear vision. The mirrors are also a constant reminder that you're towing (if the big white box behind you isn't enough!)

Not using towing mirrors is sheer laziness and we agree that the police should clamp down on their use. Surely, if a car and caravan were involved in an accident when not using adequate towing mirrors, any insurance would be nul and void hence making the outfit illegal?

 

[Gumbo]

The Police seem to being called upon Quite a lot on this caravan forum. On a reversing thread a quote is The Police would not take kindly to someone who could not reverse etc. Now they are to be called upon to procecute cars towing caravans without extended mirrors. I have a set of milenco mirrors, I don't use them. I find them off putting when I can see through my own mirrors what is going on down both sides of the van. What is going on behind me I don't care about !!! If someone wants to overtake fine, I will see them soon enough when they pull out. Oh I see you may be worrying about causing a hold up ?? Me I tow at the speed limit 50 mph on single carriageway A roads. 60 mph on the Motoway. I do wish they would raise the limit to 60 mph on A roads a speed I feel safe at. When approaching a down hill bend I slow down etc. I was once told by a very very experienced caravanner, " never seen or heard of anyone losing a caravn going uphill " A lot of 4x4s do have mirrors capable of seeing down both sides of the van when the van is in a straight line. My major concern is for a cyclist on the nearside which I can see clearly using my cars mirrors.

So people please get a life worry about what you are doing not everyone else!!!!!!! and give the Police a Rest

 

[Rick_5041348]

I have a 4X4 and agree that they have good mirrors on I always use extended mirrors because as Gumbo pointed out (A lot of 4x4s do have mirrors capable of seeing down both sides of the van when the van is in a straight line) but very few of our roads are in a straight line even our motorways curve etc So I would rather be able to see extra width even on the curves and be safe than take a chance that when I look in my mirrors I am on a straight road

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Gumbo,

"The Police seem to being called upon quite a lot....."

Parliament make the Laws, the Police enforce the Laws and ultimately at the suggestion of the Police the CPS give the final decision to prosecute or not.

Thus most citizens have some respect for the police and no matter what do not want to look a plonker in front of teh Police.

I appreciate you have friends in the force and lawyers etc but the Caravan Club and its members have bashed the towing mirrors issue to death over the last few years.

The Club's advisors have spent ages researching the legal requirements and indeed they issued a detailed "guideline" for members last June.

The key sentence for me is:-

"You must be able to see clearly down both sides of the caravan, and 4m either side, at a distance of 20m behind the caravan".

I tow my Wyoming 7'6" wide with a Kia Sorento. Personally the towing mirrors give me a much better field of vision than the standard mirrors. If your thesis was correct why do HGVs coaches etc have such big mirrors? Oh no, they are only for reversing!! LOL

Cheers

Alan

 

[Del_374232870]

I tow a Lunar Delta with a Grand Cherokee ,4x4 but the drive train is irelevant, many 7 seaters are just as wide , tall and long. My rearward vision through the door mirrors is very good when towing, but when I fit the Milenco mirrors it becomes excellent. By correct adjustment I can see all 3 lanes on a Motorway , so when pulling out of lane 1 into lane 2, not only can I be sure lane 2 is clear I can see if anything is entering lane 2 from lane 3. For those that dont fit mirrors how do you know what you cant see?

Cost tow car

 

[Rick_5041348]

Cant argue with that except life is priceless

 

[Steve_374341117]

As Gumbo says the Police do seem to be called upon yet again to enforce aspects of motoring law (as they should be doing).Yet also there are lengthy criticisms of the Police when their attention has been drawn to just such matters. It appears that as long as it doesn't affect that forum member in particular then it's OK otherwise Police are just being petty; whether it's over speed,reversing, mirrors, being correctly loaded,etc.,etc. Stop being so fickle.

Steve

 

[Lutz]

I don't see why the police should get involved in something as petty as this. They've got more important things to do than to bother with outside mirrors. Surely, if insurance companies deny coverage in the event of an accident in case of failure to comply with requirements that should be incentive enough to keep within the law.

 

[Dustydog]

Lutz

I think the "Police " aspect kind of took this thread off at a tangent from the principle point; Towing Mirrors.

Michael, I, Claire & Rob, Rick and Del all basically said they prefer to tow using their towing mirrors.

I honestly believe failure to use such mirrors is just irresponsible and cannot be good safe practice.

The jury is still out, but I have already quoted the Caravan Club guide on the matter which was investigated very carefully with qualified lawyers and I believe, road safety experts.

I find it hard to accept Gumbo's point that " What is behind me I don't care about". So why do we have mirrors at all? Doesn't the so called blind spot matter?

Ah well , each to his own. I for one will carry on using my Towing mirrors.

Chers

Alan

 

[Gumbo]

Not sure who Steves sarcastic remark is aimed at ??

one other thing about fitting extension mirrors to large 4x4s, ( I use 4x4 because they are an easy example ) When you put extension mirrors on, the distance they extend can become a danger to other road users and in particular pedestrians. When in narrow streets in some towns, you can be clearing the punters off the pavement with your mirrors. The other aspect is it costs

 

[Gumbo]

I find it hard to accept Gumbo's point that " What is behind me I don't care about

Because I can't do anything about it !!!! That's why, as for mirrors they are in place to see down the side of the vehicle so you don't hit a cyclist coming up on the Side, and so you don't pull out on an overtaking vehicle Simple really. They are not to see someone 2 foot tail gating behind your Caravan because if you Can see them you can't do nothing about it. I always make it clear what I am doing Mirror, Signal, Manouvere if Safe to do so.

As earlier mentioned to many people are worrying about what other people are doing. Clip a pedestrian with an extension mirror on and you will be procecuted. Now I don't worry about anyone doing that because I CAN'T INFLUENCE IT

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Gumbo

At the end of the day it is the Law that is very unclear on this issue.

I believe the Caravan club guide was very fairly stated.

Yes , I too have wondered about the extended mirrors hitting someone or something but equally have you ever looked and seen how far out an HGV or Coach mirros stick out!

Cheers

Alan

 

[Gumbo]

Hi Alan

It is the height difference on HGVs and Coaches that make them just safe for pedestrians.

 

[Lutz]

If you are, say, entering a motorway at moderate speed and someone is coming up from behind at 70mph on the inside lane I think you wish you'd had mirrors.

As for clipping pedestrians, there is a limit how far mirrors may extend.

 

[Gumbo]

Lutz

In your hypothetical scenario I am sure fitted mirrors on any 4x4 would clearly show you the dangers. Don't forget both drivers have a responsibility to proceed safely, not just the one Towing a Caravan or Trailer. I also appreciate the point about the distance a mirror can extend. Although it can still be pretty unsafe even at the legal distance. Please remember when you already have a Large Mirror you don't have much leeway to remain within the Law !!!!

 

[Lutz]

Even if a mirror clips a pedestrian, it cannot cause any significant injury as, by law, the mirror must deflect. There are also requirements covering the maximum load that the mirror may withstand before it gives way.

 

[Meister]

GUMBO:

I find your comment, "What is going on behind me I don't care about !!!" to be ridiculous in the extreme.

You should care (and be aware of) about what is going on behind you as it can have an effect on you. Things happening behind you can also have an effect on other road users who's actions can in turn effect on you.

If you really cant understand this perhaps you might consider contacting either I.A.M or R.o.S.P.A. with a view to undertaking advanced driver training.

And ........ please do not tell us you are an advanced driver as I have never met one yet who had an attitude such as you.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Meister

Dare I say it? Nice one mate!!

Cheers

Alan

 

[Michael_5123947]

Am I missing something here? All the posts so far seem to suggest mirrors are optional, I thought they were a legal requirement if unit was wider than car etc.

I wonder what would people like Steve who posted earlier would say would say if they were involved in a terrible accident caused by someone towing without mirrors. I'm sure their first thought would not be based around how fickle they would appear if they raised the issue of no mirrors. In fact we know and they know that this would be the first thing that would be mentioned especially when it came to allocating blame and therefore costs.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Michael

This is just the point. There is NO LAW yet.

See my comment sabove regarding the CC guide. Indeed have a look at the CC web site on the matter. A real mine field but they have used all their resources to come up with something sensible, which I stated above.

I for one will continue to sport my Smats on the Sorie.

Cheers

Alan

 

[Steve_374341117]

Gumbo, I'm on your side - I wasn't being sarcastic just pointing out how fickle some people (not you) are.

Steve

 

[Steve_374341117]

Am I missing something here? All the posts so far seem to suggest mirrors are optional, I thought they were a legal requirement if unit was wider than car etc.

I wonder what would people like Steve who posted earlier would say would say if they were involved in a terrible accident caused by someone towing without mirrors. I'm sure their first thought would not be based around how fickle they would appear if they raised the issue of no mirrors. In fact we know and they know that this would be the first thing that would be mentioned especially when it came to allocating blame and therefore costs.

I'm not suggesting people should not use mirrors, I think it's extremely irresponsible not to if the van is wider than the towing vehicle. I was merely pointing out how fickle some people are when it comes to the police involving themselves in something.On the one hand someone believes police should be involved, on the other people think police are involving themselves in something when perhaps they may have better things to do.

Steve

 

[Lutz]

Alan, the information on the CC website is a bit inconsistent. On the one hand they say that the law requires, quote,

"You must be able to see clearly down both sides of the caravan, and 4m either side, at a distance of 20m behind the caravan."

When you open the fact sheet it says,

"A car towing a caravan, if first used on or after 1 June 1978 and before 26 January 2010 (ie the majority of cars in use now) must have:

(i) at least one exterior mirror fitted on the offside of the vehicle; and

(ii) at least one interior mirror, unless a mirror so fitted would give the driver no view to the rear of the vehicle; and

(iii) at least one exterior mirror fitted on the nearside of the vehicle unless an interior mirror gives the driver an adequate view to the rear."

If 'adequate view to the rear' means down the side of the caravan, then you have no option but to also have a nearside mirror which meets the requirements, if necessary an extended mirror.