We have just returned from a long touring session in France where we came across several examples of 3.5t limits through town centres. Recent posts regarding speed stickers etc. reminded me that my fully loaded X-trail and caravan is probably just over this limit. I do usually avoid the town centres because the roads may be narrow but I did pass through one I had pre-scouted and where I knew there was no width problem, I presume it was just a wish to keep the centre free of lorries. Does anyone know if it only applies to goods vehicles, or is it any vehicle? Are there different rules for bridges?
3.5t limit
- Thread starter JohnGriffiths
- Start date
Hi,
Without any other signs saying any other it means exactly what it says.
ie 3.5tonnes is the limit and you (and me) would be breaking le law if we were to pass the sign with the 'van on the back.
Without any other signs saying any other it means exactly what it says.
ie 3.5tonnes is the limit and you (and me) would be breaking le law if we were to pass the sign with the 'van on the back.
Hi Lutz,
Don't want to get into an argument but surely the 'outfit' is the vehicle.
Whilst I understand that the two component parts are imposing their own downward forces on the road, they cannot be seperated for the legality of weight purposes.
Don't want to get into an argument but surely the 'outfit' is the vehicle.
Whilst I understand that the two component parts are imposing their own downward forces on the road, they cannot be seperated for the legality of weight purposes.
No, an outfit comprises two vehicles, the towcar and the caravan. There seems to be a misconception that caravans (or other trailers for that matter) aren't vehicles.
Not wishing to split hair's on this but, here in the uk the weight limit applies to a total vehicle weight. That is car, passengers and any trailer towed.
Now as France is part of the EU, I would assume that the same applies there. Anyway, I wouldn't wish to incurr an on the spot fine for not complying.
Personally I would drive to our campsite, set up the caravan and then explore in the car solo.
ATB Steve.
Now as France is part of the EU, I would assume that the same applies there. Anyway, I wouldn't wish to incurr an on the spot fine for not complying.
Personally I would drive to our campsite, set up the caravan and then explore in the car solo.
ATB Steve.
Not so in our county, steve. There is a 3 tonne bridge on our lane, and as my outfit is in excess of 3.5 tonnes, I checked with council before crossing it. (aren't I a little goody-two shoes?).Their conclusion was as Lutz said, it is two separate vehicles, therefore can cross the bridge.
Thanks for clearing that up. It does make sense when you think about it to treat it as two separate vehicles. In practise I'm no worse over a bridge than two Transits following each other.
Hi,
In France, caravans have their own registration and insurance. I would argue that makes a car and caravan two vehicles.
(Mind your fingers - clang)
In UK, HGVs are taxed by their MGW, with reductions for having more axles. I guess that means that they are taxed by axle weight. ????
But what about signs in UK that say "Maximum width 6ft6in". You get points for failing to comply with a traffic signal.
602
In France, caravans have their own registration and insurance. I would argue that makes a car and caravan two vehicles.
(Mind your fingers - clang)
In UK, HGVs are taxed by their MGW, with reductions for having more axles. I guess that means that they are taxed by axle weight. ????
But what about signs in UK that say "Maximum width 6ft6in". You get points for failing to comply with a traffic signal.
602
so if im driving a tractor unit at 6 ton pulling an empty trailor 4ton, i can go over a bridge that is 8 ton max, because thier two vehicles?. i dont think so.
so if im driving a tractor unit at 6 ton pulling an empty trailor 4ton, i can go over a bridge that is 8 ton max, because thier two vehicles?. i dont think so.
These grey areas of legislation leave the way open for police to define their own views. I do wish that true clear statements would be made by councils and those who define the highway code.
I personally would define any vehicle having a second unit directly attatched to it via a towing coupling to be classed as one unit. I draw this conclusion because you would be very stupid indeed to drive your vehicle following another 6ft apart as this would be tailgating and even at 10Mph you wouldn't be able to avoid collision if they stopped quickly.
I have experienced another stupid bit of legislation regarding 3500Kg vehicles and trailers. I uesed to use a VW LT35 truck and tow a 2000Kg goods trailer. First and foremost, you need a tachograph fitted to do this. Then because the total weight of the combo is 5500Kgs, you would expect to need an operator's license. But you don't. So long as the trailer weighs less than 1000Kgs unladen you don't need the operators license.
But try explaining that to VOSA or the police when your spot checked. They don't know the legislation and initially on average twice a week I got prohibition notices issued banning me from towing the trailer and forcing me to get a friend to come out in their car to tow the trailer home. So to clarify this I wrote to the issuing authority for operators license's and got a clear reply stating I was exempt from the need for an operators license. I put a photo copy in the truck for the drivers and my self to show when we got stopped. Having clarified my position I stupidly thought we would now be fine. But I was wrong, we now had to endure police and VOSA staff calling us smart arse's and other things because they had to phone up to find out that our letter was correct.
So the up shot is, even if you prove your right, if a policeman thinks he/she is right, you still get a ticket. I think that is called, "Guilty until prooved innocent", but I though this country's law states you are "innocent until prooven guilty".
In our case we swapped our nice sign written truck for a Diahatsu F70 fourtrack and a 3500Kg Ifor Williams goods trailer. Now we didn't need either a tacho or operators license and cold drive 16 hrs a day if desired, which wasn't the case, but what we did avoid was the 2 hr pit stops at vosa check sites.
So I would still would rather play it safe than test legislation especially in a foriegn country.
Atb Steve L.
I personally would define any vehicle having a second unit directly attatched to it via a towing coupling to be classed as one unit. I draw this conclusion because you would be very stupid indeed to drive your vehicle following another 6ft apart as this would be tailgating and even at 10Mph you wouldn't be able to avoid collision if they stopped quickly.
I have experienced another stupid bit of legislation regarding 3500Kg vehicles and trailers. I uesed to use a VW LT35 truck and tow a 2000Kg goods trailer. First and foremost, you need a tachograph fitted to do this. Then because the total weight of the combo is 5500Kgs, you would expect to need an operator's license. But you don't. So long as the trailer weighs less than 1000Kgs unladen you don't need the operators license.
But try explaining that to VOSA or the police when your spot checked. They don't know the legislation and initially on average twice a week I got prohibition notices issued banning me from towing the trailer and forcing me to get a friend to come out in their car to tow the trailer home. So to clarify this I wrote to the issuing authority for operators license's and got a clear reply stating I was exempt from the need for an operators license. I put a photo copy in the truck for the drivers and my self to show when we got stopped. Having clarified my position I stupidly thought we would now be fine. But I was wrong, we now had to endure police and VOSA staff calling us smart arse's and other things because they had to phone up to find out that our letter was correct.
So the up shot is, even if you prove your right, if a policeman thinks he/she is right, you still get a ticket. I think that is called, "Guilty until prooved innocent", but I though this country's law states you are "innocent until prooven guilty".
In our case we swapped our nice sign written truck for a Diahatsu F70 fourtrack and a 3500Kg Ifor Williams goods trailer. Now we didn't need either a tacho or operators license and cold drive 16 hrs a day if desired, which wasn't the case, but what we did avoid was the 2 hr pit stops at vosa check sites.
So I would still would rather play it safe than test legislation especially in a foriegn country.
Atb Steve L.
Treating it as two separate vehicles is the only logical approach. Talking about how many metres between just makes it unworkable. What if the bridge is wide enough for two, three or four vehicles with reasonable separation? What if one vehicle stops at the top so a second pulls up right behind? How would you legislate to say "if the vehicle in front plus your vehicle is greater than 3.5 t then wait until it has crossed the bridge"? I would guess there quite an allowance for error and the engineer probably has to estimate how many vehicles could possibly be on the bridge at one time, divide that into the total weight he estimates the bridge can take and then take a fraction of that to set the weight limit. A car and caravan would take up approx twice the length of a car on its own so it all makes sense.
Raymond, if you're referring to a "unit" as an artic, then it pulls a "semi-trailer", therefore unit and trailer are classed as one vehicle.
Hi,
Circa 1959, I was duty mechanic at RAF Weeton, near Blackpool. Late one night we had to go out to rescue an RAF truck that had run out of diesel somewhere in the wilds of Lancashire. On the way home we came to aidge with a notice saying "10 tons limit".
Well, the Leyland Hippo was was called a 10 tonner by the RAF, but but I don't know if that was unladen weight, or load capacity, but it had three axles, and a 10,000cc engine. It was fully laden and pulling a big trailer also fully laden. We questimated that we were WAY over the 10 ton limit. On the other hand, reversing several miles in the dark did not seem a good idea.
Solution! Send the Hippo and trailer over first, and if the bridge collapsed, me and my mate would knock the sign over with our Bedford truck, and throw it in the river. I believe this is called INITIATIVE. Whatever, the bridge did not collapse.
More recently,1980ish,our local rag displayed a photo of a cement mixer lorry, parked in the middle of a bridge. Unfortunately, the bridge was sitting IN the River Tawe. Ooops! Later, I learned that this was a .... er .... "private" delivery. Talk your way out of that!
602
602
Circa 1959, I was duty mechanic at RAF Weeton, near Blackpool. Late one night we had to go out to rescue an RAF truck that had run out of diesel somewhere in the wilds of Lancashire. On the way home we came to aidge with a notice saying "10 tons limit".
Well, the Leyland Hippo was was called a 10 tonner by the RAF, but but I don't know if that was unladen weight, or load capacity, but it had three axles, and a 10,000cc engine. It was fully laden and pulling a big trailer also fully laden. We questimated that we were WAY over the 10 ton limit. On the other hand, reversing several miles in the dark did not seem a good idea.
Solution! Send the Hippo and trailer over first, and if the bridge collapsed, me and my mate would knock the sign over with our Bedford truck, and throw it in the river. I believe this is called INITIATIVE. Whatever, the bridge did not collapse.
More recently,1980ish,our local rag displayed a photo of a cement mixer lorry, parked in the middle of a bridge. Unfortunately, the bridge was sitting IN the River Tawe. Ooops! Later, I learned that this was a .... er .... "private" delivery. Talk your way out of that!
602
602
A quick scout on the net suggests the Hippo was approx 10 tons unladen with a 10 ton payload. You were a lucky man that night!
Why is it when we're young (and yet have so much to lose) we take risks and when we're much older with consequently much less to lose we tend to play it safe?
Why is it when we're young (and yet have so much to lose) we take risks and when we're much older with consequently much less to lose we tend to play it safe?
I have to say I am most upset !!! Emmerson2 you are not "goody two shoes" for that is me. I have always been goody two shoes, through my childhood I clearly remember being picked on for this... Oh, by the way what has width got to do with weight? We have a bridge by us it has been repaired twice in two years, now local parish's have put signs up to stop lorry trying to come up the lane (stupid drivers) they don't key in their lorries into there tom toms, ecause if thye did they would be taken around the A46...... Clarkson did a show where he bought our village to a stand still... I'm waffling xxxx ps Don't forget A HGV is a single vehicle and can weigh a lot of tons.....
Smiley,
Not quite sure what you mean by "What has width got to do with weight". If you can fit two similar vehicles side by side on a bridge, and it has a limit of 3.5t then it needs to withstand potentially 7t or twice the weight of a single track bridge, that's all. It won't be exactly that as the weight is more evenly spead but the limit can only ever be a guesstimate.
Not quite sure what you mean by "What has width got to do with weight". If you can fit two similar vehicles side by side on a bridge, and it has a limit of 3.5t then it needs to withstand potentially 7t or twice the weight of a single track bridge, that's all. It won't be exactly that as the weight is more evenly spead but the limit can only ever be a guesstimate.
Even an artic pulling a semitrailer is two vehicles, whether it is taxed as a single unit or not.
Hi I don’t want to upset anyone but I thought the restrictions related to the gross/train weight and in particular to the gross/train plated weight, this seems to be backed up by
http://www.suffolk.gov.uk/BusinessAndConsumer/TradingStandards/WeightRestrictionEnforcementFAQs.htm
which states
How do I avoid breaching a weight restriction?
http://www.northyorks.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=3253
In its role as highway authority the County Council is empowered under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 to make Traffic Regulation Orders (TROs) to control all types of traffic including lorries. The procedures for making Traffic Regulation Orders are laid down by the Secretary of State and must be observed by the Order-making authority. The procedures require the authority to consult on the proposed Traffic Regulation Order and then publish notices on site and in the local press detailing the proposal and inviting any objections. Any objections that are received and cannot be resolved must be reported to the relevant County Council Area Committee for consideration.
Weight limits are a form of Traffic Regulation Order, mostly introduced to protect parts of the highway network such as weak bridges. The signs associated with the weight limit indicate the maximum gross vehicle weight of vehicles permitted to use the bridge to which the weight limit applies.
and seems to be explained here
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Vehicle%20Safety%20-%20The%20Dangers%20of%20Overloading%20(Photocopying%20Sheet).pdf
What precautions should I take when
towing a trailer?
Towing a trailer puts greater demand on the vehicle and the driver.
Information on acceptable trailer towing weights can be found in vehicle
handbooks. You should ensure that:
The vehicle does not exceed either the Gross Vehicle Weight
(GVW) or the Gross Train Weight (GTW).
The GVW is the
maximum permitted weight of the vehicle (plus any load it is carrying),
while the GTW is the maximum permitted weight of the vehicle plus
any trailer being towed (plus any load being carried in the vehicle
and trailer);
Any vehicle with a chassis plate which is towing a trailer has
the maximum GTW added to its chassis plate.
Otherwise, if the
vehicle is weighed at a check point, the total weight could appear to
exceed the maximum gross weight
This means that the only info needed can be taken from the manufacturers plate on the vehicle and the caravan; rather than both weighed and both weights are added together
Derek
http://www.suffolk.gov.uk/BusinessAndConsumer/TradingStandards/WeightRestrictionEnforcementFAQs.htm
which states
How do I avoid breaching a weight restriction?
- Know the maximum Gross/Train plated weight for your vehicle i.e. gross weight for rigids, train weight for articulated vehicles.
http://www.northyorks.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=3253
In its role as highway authority the County Council is empowered under the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 to make Traffic Regulation Orders (TROs) to control all types of traffic including lorries. The procedures for making Traffic Regulation Orders are laid down by the Secretary of State and must be observed by the Order-making authority. The procedures require the authority to consult on the proposed Traffic Regulation Order and then publish notices on site and in the local press detailing the proposal and inviting any objections. Any objections that are received and cannot be resolved must be reported to the relevant County Council Area Committee for consideration.
Weight limits are a form of Traffic Regulation Order, mostly introduced to protect parts of the highway network such as weak bridges. The signs associated with the weight limit indicate the maximum gross vehicle weight of vehicles permitted to use the bridge to which the weight limit applies.
and seems to be explained here
http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/repository/Vehicle%20Safety%20-%20The%20Dangers%20of%20Overloading%20(Photocopying%20Sheet).pdf
What precautions should I take when
towing a trailer?
Towing a trailer puts greater demand on the vehicle and the driver.
Information on acceptable trailer towing weights can be found in vehicle
handbooks. You should ensure that:
The vehicle does not exceed either the Gross Vehicle Weight
(GVW) or the Gross Train Weight (GTW).
The GVW is the
maximum permitted weight of the vehicle (plus any load it is carrying),
while the GTW is the maximum permitted weight of the vehicle plus
any trailer being towed (plus any load being carried in the vehicle
and trailer);
Any vehicle with a chassis plate which is towing a trailer has
the maximum GTW added to its chassis plate.
Otherwise, if the
vehicle is weighed at a check point, the total weight could appear to
exceed the maximum gross weight
This means that the only info needed can be taken from the manufacturers plate on the vehicle and the caravan; rather than both weighed and both weights are added together
Derek
Road signs apply to actual weight, not maximum permissible gross vehicle or maximum permissible gross train weight.
Lutz where did you get your info at Police college I was told that road signs related to plated weights ok I retired 10 years ago maybe its changed
It wouldn't make sense to apply plated weights. An empty 40 tonner is hardly going to be a threat to the load carrying capacity of a bridge signposted with a 15 tonne limit.
Lutz said:
I agree but a lot of legislation sometimes dosnt make sense and unless you actualy read the entire contents it can be misleading for instance this is a direct quote from Buckingham county council explaining the act in relation to a bridge restriction
"The Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 allows local authorities to impose
weight restrictions on bridges that cannot carry the full 44 tonnes permitted by
the Road Traffic Act. Currently no one is carrying out any enforcement checks
on vehicles using bridges in breach of such restrictions.
The basis of these restrictions is that vehicles with legal gross permitted
weights above that permitted for the bridge should not use it. The offence is
committed irrespective of the load carried by the vehicle at the time of
crossing the bridge. It is therefore unnecessary to weigh the vehicle. Officers
need only identify lorries that may have a gross permitted weight exceeding
that permitted for the bridge, note the registration number of the vehicle and
then make enquiries with the licensing centre to confirm the vehicles permitted
weight and ownership."
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