85% debate continuation

[Hutch]

My car and caravan come back from the CaCMC ratio at 84% so great even the car heavily laden we are "Safe" but on the M40 just passing an HGV , we had a massive snake, silence in the car, Three big "Snakes" and the ATC kicked in. Slowed us down straight line, HGV thankfully bracked avoiding an incident. Got to site after driving very gently, I had totally loaded the caravan wrongly with too much weight over the back of the caravan. , but it was Below our max MTPLM.
I was the idiot.

 

[camel]

I think ATC is the best bit of kit they have put on a caravan the idea must have come from the transport industry and the ABS which you see on 44ton trailers which is on the centre axle,

 

[Lutz]

I think ATC is the best bit of kit they have put on a caravan the idea must have come from the transport industry and the ABS which you see on 44ton trailers which is on the centre axle,

Actually, ATC was invented by an engineer by the name of Wolfgang Lubs, a keen hobby sailor, who got the idea after he experienced a bad snake with his boat trailer. In the early 90's he founded the BL Trading company to manufacture and market his invention which he called LEAS (Lubs Electronic Anti-Sway Stabiliser). It was copied by AlKo who, by virtue of their much greater resources, were able to make it into the success which it is today. In fact, Wolfgang Lubs was engaged in long-drawn out legal battle with AlKo concerning patent infringement, which I believe he lost in the end because AlKo were able to engage better lawyers or maybe it was just the legal costs getting too much for him. Nevertheless, the LEAS system is still being produced and offered as the only completely universal electronic stabiliser system suitable for any make of light trailer chassis.

 

[Parksy]

Hello Parksy.

I have occasionally started a thread about tow matching, but more often than not I joined a thread started by others, where the issue of 85% has raised its head. I am guilty of perpetuating the subject, becasue it has been held up as a precise target rather than a guidance value so many times it is a tradition, rather than a thought out process.

I too have been a member of this forum for a long time and I do recall there have been a few posts where the some people have been fretting about getting as close to 85% as possible, but perhaps in other threads have shown disregard for other legal requirements. I do refer back to it becasue it shows how skewed the some peoples view are on the subject.

A tradition may have more extensive definitions but it includes "something that is habitually done or used" and basically it means that the reason for doing it that particular way is not thought about its just done. Just consider; How many traditions (not just caravanning ones) that when investigated have proven to be wrong? Some were so abhorrent they've been made illegal! Traditions should be tested, not necessarily to prove them wrong but sometimes to confirm they are still the best way forward.

It shouldn't bee seen a subversive to challenge something that does not make logical sense. As I have indicated, I have tried to get an indication of why and how the present advice was formed.
The reluctance to comment and lack of positive information from the caravanning organisations is very unfortunate.

Even though this thread cannot possibly produce a new form of towing advice by its self, If nothing else, it's made more people actually think about what the advice is trying to do. It may even prompt members of the industry body that set the advice think its time to look again.

The best thing about this thread is that it hasn't diverted someone else's thread completely off track, as has so often happened in the past.
People use this forum for a variety of reasons, and one of the primary reasons is to gain knowledge and insight into the trials and tribulations of caravan use and ownership.
I accept your point about some of those asking questions placing undue reliance on the 85% figure Prof, but if any disregard has been shown for other legal requirements, the disregard is unlikely to be wilful, it would be more likely to be through ignorance.
This forum and website is dedicated amongst other things to educating caravanners about the legalities surrounding towing a touring caravan, so hopefully those who have disregarded any other legal aspects will have been steered in the right direction.
I have no problem at all when accepted practices are challenged.
I feel a slight sense of unease when a universally accepted practice which continues to be recommended by experts in their field is challenged to the point where it appears as though there are repeated attempts to completely discredit it with no viable alternative suggestion which would replace it.
We know that the 85% towing ratio has no legal standing.
We know that the 85% figure is not ideal for all situations.
The point is that no authoritative source is suggesting that the 85% figure should be taken alone with other safety and legal advice disregarded.
The 85% advice is only one facet of towing safety, it offers no guarantees but no authoritative source is suggesting that it does, it is offered as a basic starting point.
Perhaps this is why caravan organisations as so reluctant to comment, they are happy with the 85% figure which hasn't as far as I'm aware been shown to present a danger to those who have followed the advice.
Having said all that, although I disagree with what you're trying to do in lieu of anything better, please continue.
At least this thread is keeping members interested during the colder months and it isn't affecting anyone asking a fairly simple question on other message boards

 

[ProfJohnL]

My car and caravan come back from the CaCMC ratio at 84% so great even the car heavily laden we are "Safe" but on the M40 just passing an HGV , we had a massive snake, silence in the car, Three big "Snakes" and the ATC kicked in. Slowed us down straight line, HGV thankfully bracked avoiding an incident. Got to site after driving very gently, I had totally loaded the caravan wrongly with too much weight over the back of the caravan. , but it was Below our max MTPLM.
I was the idiot.

Hello Hutch,
No official industry statement I have seen about the advice has ever made a claim that it offers any guaranteed level of safety. Yet I'd bet that if you asked a number of caravanners (who haven't been following these threads) what does the industry advice do many would say or imply the 85% provides a safe towing ratio.

The experience you relate brings home the fact that by its self, achieving a particular weight ratio without thinking about the other factors is simply not enough.

 

[JezzerB]

Gaffer that was not my point at all. Both were stable. What we are saying is there is far more to stability than meets the eye. or anything to do with 85%! I think I made it quite clear how I choose my towing outfit-consideration of every factor, but one of them was not and isn't aero-but could come in to play.
However i do note that one of the regularly used arguments against me when I say manufacturer rated tow capacity should be used too, is that caravans are big and slab sided unlike trailers. You can't have it both ways. Incidentally I don't hold with that view as usually there are huge machines/bales etc on those trailers!

 

[JezzerB]

.......is your collective advice to forget the 85% recommendation and have your potential caravan checked for it's drag coefficiency?

My advice is to look at this excellent article by PC magazine.

ww.practicalcaravan.com/advice/50460-towing-101-part-6-how-to-deal-with-a-snaking-caravan

Puts the 85% recommendation into context with all the other precautions that should be taken.

And I am not sure why you are referring me to this article having been 'lucky'enough never have had the snaking issue in spite of towing at 113% of kerbweight for over 30000miles in the UK?

 

[Gafferbill]

JezzerB..............none of my posts have been made with you in mind.

I have only contributed to this thread to pitch for the other side in the debate.
I admit to being miffed and spurred on when one contributor belittling the 85% ratio has one of the heaviest tow cars on the market (not you) and another no longer tows.

 

[JezzerB]

Thank you sorry -that is the trouble with the forum type format.

 

[JTQ]

I admit to being miffed and spurred on when one contributor belittling the 85% ratio has one of the heaviest tow cars on the market (not you) and another no longer tows.

I find it hard to understand any logic underpinning those statements.

1. Towing presently with a heavy vehicle, does not preclude the contributor's experience could have included towing with other vehicles?
2. That now a contributor no longer tows, their previous experiences and opinions are dismissed as being of no value to this thread?

With now over 5 decades of towing, I for one have experience of using many vehicles, not all of it with just this vehicle.

 

[ProfJohnL]

It is a combination of past experience and the numbers of questions on the forum about weight matching that first made me realise the inadequacies of the way the present advice is too often repeated.

Strictly I do not "belittle" the concept of keeping the trailer weight as small as possible, That is the position I have consistently expressed many times in other threads. What I cannot take as acceptable is the blanket application of 85% in isolation of all the other factors that contribute to the towing experience. There is no evidence that 85% is the best figure. It might be the best but how has it been proven? Perhaps the the advice should be 50% or even lower!

Its one thing for legislators to set arbitrary limits which are usually derived from other pre-existing legal criteria. But technical advice from the industry for users should at least prevent illegal outcomes, and have a logical explanation on how it was derived, and preferably be based on verifiable evidence.

The main point about being able to offer advice, it should be relevant to those that need or are asking for it. Very few caravanners will have undertaken formal training about towing so the most vulnerable will be those new to the task. It cannot be assumed they know all the details associated with the task, so the advice offered must encompass all relevant and important details.

Weight ratio in some form will almost certainly be one of the first criteria to be looked at, but it should not be the only factor.

 

[Parksy]

I haven't seen any publication or statement from any authoritative source which suggests that the 85% figure should be taken in isolation from other contributory factors which make up the towing experience Prof.
If you or anybody else could provide concrete non-anecdotal evidence that any authoritative source encourages their readers or members to ignore other safety and legal requirements whilst adhering strictly to their 85% guideline I'd be most interested to see it.
I agree that many caravanners have taken no formal training in preparation for towing a caravan.
Novice caravanners are indeed the most vulnerable and in need of good advice which will encompass all relevant information and important details about towing a caravan.
From what I've seen, both of the major clubs provide this advice, as does Practical Caravan Magazine.
Would you care to point out which piece of advice any of the aforementioned organisations suggest should be taken in isolation please?
The onus is upon the driver to familiarise themselves with the the law which governs towing, and also to take heed of the full spectrum of advice offered by established clubs and publications connected to touring caravan use and ownership.
Whether this is what actually happens or not is neither here nor there.
We can advise those who join this forum, browse this website or buy and read Practical Caravan Magazine.
We can do nothing about those that do no research or who ignore the law and the advice on offer, they are not our responsibility.
You can cast doubt on the 85% figure, we can't stop you, but others including myself will continue to reinforce the full range of advice and recommendations that exist until it is proven to be wrong and replaced with something better.

 

[Gafferbill]

JTQ........all views are valid and the subject in question always generates disagreement.
I have not quoted anybody's post to fault it just because I don't agree with it or understand their logic!
I am at one with Parksy on this........if you are going to belittle the 85% advice then come up with a workable viable alternative.

Towing experience must count for very little as I can easily match yours, and we appear to have completely different views on this topic

 

[Raywood]

I do not think there is blanket advice to say stick to an 85% towing ratio, this is merely a guideline for newcomers. Personally I think it is a bit outdated and could be raised to 90%.
The towing ratio is only part of the equation when it comes to getting started but it is a useful starting point and should keep newcomers from making serious errors before they have enough experience to learn their limits.
The simple fact is we have to give some guidance to people who need it, 85% is unlikely, but not guaranteed, to produce a bad match and unless someone produces a science backed alternative, I do not see it changing. When questions are asked I will always refer people to it, it is their choice if they exceed it, but to fail to mention it or say it should be disregarded is possibly putting others at risk.

 

[JezzerB]

I am not sure I agree; my near neighbour certainly thinks it is gospel and won't hear of going over it; or that is the impression I get. As a starting point fine but I don't agree with the comment that it isn't portrayed as only advice ; the way it is portrayed puts fear into people when choosing a caravan /car combo from what I have seen.
The advice to anyone from me would be;
a) what is your license qualification
b) what is the legal towing limit of your car-that stated by the manufacturer
c) what is the weight mtplm of the caravan
d) what is the kerbweight of the car
e) what are nose weight of the van and towball limit of the car

And my personal opinion is that if the mtplm of the van is below the kerbweight of the car , and the towing capacity of the car, and you maintain both well and load sensibly ie more in the car and not in the rear of the van, and nose weight of van and towball are a match you're probably going to be ok. Then proceed with caution. Above all never go beyond the legal towing weight of the car or the towball limits but you may well be ok to have a weight of caravan that is greater than the85% so don't fret too much about this. !

Hides under a parapet for flak about to appear. I feel I have been cautious in the above since as you know all of my towing experience so far leads me to feel the 85% thing is based on a very very cautious health and safety adviser!


I've had 2 caravan salesmen fall out over a sale with me because of it, with the managing director having to intervene. We I think are saying there is far more to it than that -the lighter the caravan compared to car kerbweight the better but it is far from the only thing that counts and having towed at 113% I most definitely know this for a fact.

 

[camel]

It would just be my luck to have a % of 113 and be involved in an accident and my caravan was in need of repair or written off I don't think my insurance company would be to keen on settling my claim if they knew I was towing at that %,

 

[Parksy]

I am not sure I agree; my near neighbour certainly thinks it is gospel and won't hear of going over it; or that is the impression I get ......

Perhaps you should introduce him to this forum to put him in touch with the Prof? 😊
As I stated earlier, if people don't bother to do their research and to acquaint themselves with the advice that's freely available, there's nothing that we can do about it.
Which organisation or publication portrays the 85% advice in a way that 'puts fear into people ' Jezzer?
Regardless of the relative weights of the car and caravan, I wouldn't advise someone with no previous towing experience to tow a caravan for the first time which weighed the same as the legal towing limit of their car.
The 85% ratio may seem a bit cautious, but taken with the other towing advice which is recommended by reputable publications and organisations it would be unlikely to endanger anyone.

 

[JezzerB]

I don't think it's any specific publication but none of the publications place any emphasis or not enough in my mind of going over the towing limits of the car/ towball/caravan noseweights. It is the constant repetition of 85% with scant information on much else -but maybe that is me due to my experiences . Anyway I promise i will write!

Regarding the accident comment; why-? if you are fully legal in every way and it doesn't state anything to do with kerbweight in the policy-I know the odd one does or so I hear, you have no problems. However we do all try our hardest to avoid an accident in every way. Even if you had an inherently unstable outfit you could drive and avoid an accident-simply by slowing down-yes you'd be a nuisance but you'd be safe till you got home and had a rethink. (being devils etc now ). Unlike the clown I saw towing the toilet block-all over the road as I've mentioned and still travelling at what appeared at or above the legal limit!

 

[ProfJohnL]

I haven't seen any publication or statement from any authoritative source which suggests that the 85% figure should be taken in isolation from other contributory factors which make up the towing experience Prof.

If you or anybody else could provide concrete non-anecdotal evidence that any authoritative source encourages their readers or members to ignore other safety and legal requirements whilst adhering strictly to their 85% guideline I'd be most interested to see it.

I agree that many caravanners have taken no formal training in preparation for towing a caravan.... ....Would you care to point out which piece of advice any of the aforementioned organisations suggest should be taken in isolation please?

I have never said the major organisations offer the 85% advice in isolation. And I made that point earlier in this thread. In that respect they seem to be the good guys. I hoped I had made it clear it is correspondents on forums. It has been reported by some forum users, that some dealers have used the 85% in isolation when dealing with customers. Though not being part to those conversations we cannot be certain, but it was the message that was retained by the customer.

I haven't read all editorials but it would not surprise me if it has slipped through in a number of them'

 

[JezzerB]

We bought a caravan but upset one salesman by not buying from him; shan't say where and some time agon now, but said salesman then rang us asked what we had bought , still trying to make a sale and when i informed him we had gone elsewhere, obviously upset we hadn't bought from him proceeded to tell us our outfit was not safe and having done my research it clearly was.

This also happened to our neighbour; told his car couldn't tow it-and went home and bought a different van,but on research found the salesperson had been quoting the wrong car/model (4wd adds a fair bit of weight and towing capacity).

Two caravanners only in our street-both had this quoted . I suppose you could argue the sales people were erring on the side of caution though in both cases even though one was done in spite. I wonder how many unscrupulous sales go on where a seller ignores weights/advising to clinch a sale-probably not a dealer but private sellers will think simply buyer beware!

 

[otherclive]

I agree that dealers could be quite single minded either way in their use of the 85% guidance. The two club outfit matching sites tend to be quite black an white as far as 85% goes, but their guidance sheets are very balanced. Towcar.info tends to take a more comprehensive view. But even that matching site cannot predict where the owner will pack their load in the caravan. As far as private sales are concerned it is very much a case of Buyer Beware. There’s absolutely no obligation on the Seller to advise the Buyer on the outfits match. But saying that there will be those Sellers who will seek to advise a new Buyer as they care about the hobby and the well being of those with less or no experience.

I had just such advice many years ago. We had a Marina 1.8 estate and had wanted to buy a caravan. A near neighbours husband had not long died and she needed to sell a lovely Cosalt van. When we talked she told me that she really didn’t think my car was heavy enough to tow the caravan. That was really the first time I’d considered weight, being more focussed on power. We had a long chat about caravanning and it was her advice about loads, speed etc that guided me in those early days. I was fortunate. Other private Buyers may not be so fortunate, but there is these days so much more readily accessible information available on which to base decisions. Although I must say if I were a newbie seeking advice from this thread I would probably stick to camping or package holidays

 

[JTQ]

.......if you are going to belittle the 85% advice then come up with a workable viable alternative.

I have here and elsewhere on several occasions.

That is consider the attributes and weaknesses any particular vehicle has with respect to stability when towing.
Not simply place undue reliance on a single characteristic, but consider the wider features that make for a stable tow vehicle.

Almost without, exception in published guidance it is quoted as a stand alone figure, at best qualified by advising the weight distribution in the van and noseweight has importance, and experience brings possible easing.

Self evident other characteristics that I contend even the less technical savvy can interpret, such as minimised overhang, long wheelbase and avoiding too high standing vehicles are rarely mentioned.
All these are positive drivers along with the mass ratio in achieving towing stability, but not mentioned, really implying get the mass ratio and loading right and things will be fine.
Yes, in many cases it will be if you adopt a low mass ratio. However, increasingly with the changing type of vehicle sold, getting lighter, and lack of a B+E, taking that ultra conservative mass ratio, starts to become more of an issue. Not relaxing it to reflect other features, will lead to a demise of this form of leisure activity, for no sound reason.
Qualifying it further with a sentence or two would way better inform the novice entering the hobby.

 

[Raywood]

I do understand the sales peoples position. Quite simply if they are selling a caravan that is more than 85% of the cars kerb weight, having discovered this, they are duty bound to warn the purchaser of the towing advice. Having said that the customer should then be able to make an informed decision on whether to accept this.
If the customer was not informed when the sale person knew of the problem there is a possibility of the dealer being sued if there was an accident. Provided the customer is warned that should be enough though.
When we bought our latest caravan we were asked what MTPLM we were happy with was, which was possibly a nice way of establishing that we understood the point.

 

[Lutz]

Strange that, as I've never been asked what vehicle I would be using to tow the caravan that I was about to purchase.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I do understand the sales peoples position. Quite simply if they are selling a caravan that is more than 85% of the cars kerb weight, having discovered this, they are duty bound to warn the purchaser of the towing advice.

Ray,

"Dealers" and "Traders" are considered to hold a position of trust and are expected to use their specialist knowledge to inform customers of relevant matters. It would be wise to inform customers if there are concerns about the suitability of a choice of outfit, but simply exceeding a blanket 85% ratio is not a legal trigger. as the towing advice has no lawful implications they are not "duty bound" to quote it.

Dealerships may have their own internal policy to do so but it is not a legal duty.

Ultimately the law makes it the driver's responsibility to ensure their vehicle is road worthy, and that duty cannot be passed onto anyone else.