85% debate continuation

[otherclive]

Hi parksy I don’t list people who seem to want to dissect this subject to the Nth degree purposely because I’m not posting to criticise any individual and certainly not yourself who I have nothing but good to say about yourself for the level headed none biased replies you post, or the likes of Gafferbill who posts sensible responses based on experience, it’s the scientific answers that seem more likely to put new caravanners off this excellent forum and even to think they won’t caravan at all as they need a degree to understand how to tow, the majority on here seem friendly normal people who genuinely want to help novices rather than tying people in knots until they give up trying to understand and just manage with a wing and a prayer.

BP

I agree that the aim must be to try and give newcomers to the hobby good advice so that’s they don’t venture out on a “ wing and a prayer”. Yet your earlier post seems to me to advocate just such an approach. Nothing weighed, no nose load checks etc. Surely a novice reading that post would think that it is okay to sally forth regardless. Although seeing what some folks load out of their caravans and cars when arriving on site your approach isn’t unique.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Yes Ray, But the way you suggested it it would only have been mentioned if the outfit was above 85% , as it it were an automatic requirement. Hopefully the question on suitable matching should take place a matter of course, and not just triggered by a high percentage ratio.

I still question whether there is a "duty" to mention the industry advice, as the advice has not been produced by a recognised trade body who has been given a legal duty to enforce or regulate the matter.

 

[Dustydog]

I have to concur with the Profs last sentence. Is it too late to raise this entire thread at the NEC this week? Put the cat among the pigeons😛

 

[otherclive]

I would be worried about Prof’s desire for more regulation and/or legal enforcement. These days even better well meaning laws across a plethora of subjects aren’t enforced in any meaningful way. If anything I would much prefer education and ‘ nudge’ to achieve a better understanding of the legal requirements and what is good sound advice. Including incentives and encouragement fir Club or other training. Even online training could be helpful. But please no more regulators or laws.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I have not called for more regulation, what I have called for is greater clarity.

 

[Parksy]

Here is PCv towcar editor David Motton's take on the 85% figure.

 

[camel]

Could of been penned by the Prof himself,

 

[JezzerB]

Yes good article.Thanks for posting.

 

[Gafferbill]

Good article but no mention was made of the large increase in power of cars in general over just a few years ago .......the improvement in high speed roads all resulting in much higher towing speeds for most journeys now.
What research that has been done all shows.....the higher the speed the more likely for instability to occur.

 

[JezzerB]

Improvement in high speed roads-have i missed something-where are those ?

 

[Lutz]

Good article but no mention was made of the large increase in power of cars in general over just a few years ago .......the improvement in high speed roads all resulting in much higher towing speeds for most journeys now.
What research that has been done all shows.....the higher the speed the more likely for instability to occur.

But nobody says that you must tow as fast as the car will allow. It should be fairly obvious that the risk of instability increases with speed and it's the driver's responsibility to drive appropriate to suit the conditions whatever the weight ratio is. The first thing that one should do as soon as one senses traces of onsetting instability is to slow down. Especially if the weight ratio is unfavourable it may mean limiting one's cruising speed to well below the legal limit.

 

[JezzerB]

Yes personally the power speed of a car shouldn't make a difference-in the way you describe anyway, more power =easier towing perhaps! The speed limit is still the same and imo silly 50 on a roads-would prefer it simplified to 60mph on all national speed limit roads and dual/mways.Our Navarra would tow our Buc at stupid speeds I am sure if I were a silly driver-I am very grateful we have a speed limiter and cruise control though as it makes sticking to the limit easier and takes away that-look down and don't realise how fast type situation-it is a very good tow car.

 

[Raywood]

I agree that speed is up to the driver. The 60 mph limit for towing has been in force for I think over 30 years and seems a sensible figure to me. There should have been no increase in towing speeds with the speed limit remaining at 60, but I have noticed that there does seem to me more people exceeding it these days.

 

[otherclive]

Yes personally the power speed of a car shouldn't make a difference-the speed limit is still the same and imo silly 50 on a roads-would prefer it simplified to 60mph on all national speed limit roads and dual/mways.

I am quite happy with 50 mph on non dual or non motorways. In many respects the solo traffic isn’t moving any faster and at 50 mph I’ve never noticed that the outfit is trailing a stream of frustrated drivers. The only slight negative of the 50mph restriction is the tendency of HGV trucks to want to push you along given they can now travel at 50 mph but clearly want to travel faster. Although a gentle slope or more will see them drop back.

Overall though big improvement compared to my first car a minivan which was limited to 40 mph given it had no side windows. So I fitted windows and changed its taxation class.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thank you Parksy for posting that item.

I note it was from Nov 2015. a, and having seen it again I do recall it.

David Motton has had several roles in motoring journalism, and was instrumental in setting up the towcar awards.

This placed him in an ideal position to professionally evaluate a variety of different tow vehicles and caravans. I am certain he would not have published the article if it was not a genuine concern and warranted debate.

And No; I did not write the article!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Yes personally the power speed of a car shouldn't make a difference-in the way you describe anyway, more power =easier towing perhaps! The speed limit is still the same and imo silly 50 on a roads-would prefer it simplified to 60mph on all national speed limit roads and dual/mways.Our Navarra would tow our Buc at stupid speeds I am sure if I were a silly driver-I am very grateful we have a speed limiter and cruise control though as it makes sticking to the limit easier and takes away that-look down and don't realise how fast type situation-it is a very good tow car.

I'm sure you'd agree that speed is one if not the most significant factor in causing loss of control. If people who are adhering to the present speed limits are still encountering difficulties, perhaps we should be considering a common speed limit on all roads of 50 not 60!

Won't that make me popular

 

[otherclive]

I'm sure you'd agree that speed is one if not the most significant factor in causing loss of control. If people who are adhering to the present speed limits are still encountering difficulties, perhaps we should be considering a common speed limit on all roads of 50 not 60!

Won't that make me popular

Gosh Prof almost as bad as regulation
But not quite.

 

[Gafferbill]

But nobody says that you must tow as fast as the car will allow. It should be fairly obvious that the risk of instability increases with speed and it's the driver's responsibility to drive appropriate to suit the conditions whatever the weight ratio is.

.........you do like misinterpreting my posts!

I was specifically referring to David Motton's article where he suggested that it may be time to relax the 85% advice because it has been around for years and tow cars have dramatically improved and there has been dramatic improvements in technology........all to support his suggestion.

He failed to mention that the blanket 50 mph towing speed limit has been abolished in the UK for dual carriageways and motorways.
He failed to mention that medium to large family cars now commonly have engines near 200 bhp.........not so long ago 100bhp was more likely the norm.
He failed to mention that high speed motorways in the UK are a relative recent thing.......these changes do not support his suggestion

In a nutshell your average UK tower now has a much better tow car and expects to tow at much higher speeds on much better roads than their previous generation.......and they do.

It should be fairly obvious that the risk of instability increases with speed.

.........agreed!

 

[otherclive]

The UKs first proper motorway was constructed in 1959. Hardly a recent development and other motorways followed relatively quickly. I would not agree that we drive on better roads given the ongoing roadworks or infrastructure works that span most of England. Our A roads are poorly surfaced to such an extent that motorist suffer needless repair costs and continual vehicle movement. The motorways have numerous sections where tramline depressions have appeared which can catch the unwary driver out.

An Australian friend came over last summer and asked me if I knew where the diversion begins and ends as most of his travels around the Home Counties and West Country had been beset by yellow diversion signs and temporary traffic lights that then leave a patchwork quit as the finished road surface.

 

[Parksy]

I'm sure you'd agree that speed is one if not the most significant factor in causing loss of control. If people who are adhering to the present speed limits are still encountering difficulties, perhaps we should be considering a common speed limit on all roads of 50 not 60!

Won't that make me popular

Or perhaps the people who are towing at the current speed limits should learn about tyre pressures, correct caravan loading and, dare I say it, the advice surrounding the 85% recommendation 😎

 

[ProfJohnL]

Parksy

That's a wonderful idea Perhaps we should start a thread about it?

 

[camel]

Motto"s article is clear and straight to the point about towing limits and the 85% towing ratio, if I was new to caravanning I would follow his advice after all he is an expert in this field and still caravanning,

 

[ProfJohnL]

Motto"s article is clear and straight to the point about towing limits and the 85% towing ratio, if I was new to caravanning I would follow his advice after all he is an expert in this field and still caravanning,

Hello Camel,
David Motton is a journalist with an interest in automotive matters. He certainly will have gained a lot of experience, and he may have relevant qualifications, but I doubt he has ever called himself an expert.

He like the rest of us has formed opinions about the the industries towing advice, and he clearly has seen there are anomalies with the advice, especially the way it frequently used to over emphasizes the weight ratio part and the other bits get forgotten.

From the article it is clear he feels the advice is overdue a review but he urges caution about launching new advice becasue it needs to be shown that it follows sound scientific or engineering principles.

Like Motto, I too accept that until there is a proven alternative , the present advice is better than nothing, but it has to be the whole advice and not just the weight ratio.

 

[Raywood]

The simple answer is that nothing will be done to change the advice unless someone else pays for a new review and testing. All you can do is quote the advice and give your personal views on it.

 

[camel]

I think it would take someone like Dave Motton to put new ideas forward who is well in the industry and hopefully would be listened to, Prof have you ever thought of contacting DM so you can put your ideas forward,