85% debate continuation

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Mar 12, 2020
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Hello,
This is my first post so I am not sure whether I am in the right place.
We recently decided to change our caravan for a newer one.
We tow with a VW Passat with a kerbweight of 1591kg. and a maximum towing weight of 1800kg.
We looked around and decided on a fixed bed Bailey. During the negotiations, the dealer checked on the ratio between our cars kerbweght and the maximum weight of the caravan..
The ratio came in at 100%. This is not ideal but as experienced caravanners, we would consider the changeover.
The dealer then advised us to check our caravan insurance. We did this and in the small print we found that the caravan would not be insured for on the road use if the car/caravan ratio was higher than 95%.
We checked other insurers and found a number of them had similar conditions.
This is the first time we have been advised to check the ratio with our insurer but it was certainly good advice.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Hello,
This is my first post so I am not sure whether I am in the right place.
We recently decided to change our caravan for a newer one.
We tow with a VW Passat with a kerbweight of 1591kg. and a maximum towing weight of 1800kg.
We looked around and decided on a fixed bed Bailey. During the negotiations, the dealer checked on the ratio between our cars kerbweght and the maximum weight of the caravan..
The ratio came in at 100%. This is not ideal but as experienced caravanners, we would consider the changeover.
The dealer then advised us to check our caravan insurance. We did this and in the small print we found that the caravan would not be insured for on the road use if the car/caravan ratio was higher than 95%.
We checked other insurers and found a number of them had similar conditions.
This is the first time we have been advised to check the ratio with our insurer but it was certainly good advice.


That’s a salutary lesson or reminder to those who may have such conditions and failed to read or understand the small print. Which insurer are you with ?
 
Jan 31, 2018
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And time to bin the insurer-why 95% , why not 85% -oh heck, here we go again, but setting an arbitrary figure like that seems non sensical to me-hey ho. I would simply not entertain that and move.
 

JTQ

May 7, 2005
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Weigh your own car so you know its "kerbweight", if the quoted 1591 kgs value was obtained in any other way.
 
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Damian

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Mar 14, 2005
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I suppose I was rather taken aback being warned not to "argue" when only a single response was posted. Talk about nipping in the bud!

You were NOT warned about anything !!

My intervention was after the following post to yours.
As for "nipping in the bud", Myself and Parksy have spent many hours and many days basically rescuing this Forum from the way it used to be, which believe me was not a nice place.
Therefore it has worked very well that when we see a response or post that invites controversy, it will be flagged and whatever action is needed is taken, be that a gentle reminder all the way up to posts being deleted and in some cases users banned from the Forum.

It is very sensible to read the Forum Rules and understand the limits.
 
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We are with Towergate Insurance. We looked around at other insurers but found it difficult to wade through th small print to find the information we needed.
It would be interesting to know if any other caravaners ha come across this situation.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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We are with Towergate Insurance. We looked around at other insurers but found it difficult to wade through th small print to find the information we needed.
It would be interesting to know if any other caravaners ha come across this situation.


I’ve never noticed such a requirement but most of my outfits have been 85% or well below. Any that were not around 85% probably predate the guidance figure, but would have been within the car’s towing specifications but at what percentage heaven knows.
 

JTQ

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The dealer then advised us to check our caravan insurance. We did this and in the small print we found that the caravan would not be insured for on the road use if the car/caravan ratio was higher than 95%.

There is something confusing here.
As stated it is strangely the car/caravan weight ratio, not what we are assuming the normal caravan laden / car kerb weight ratio.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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This is the first time I have actually heard of a limit like this being stipulated in a caravan policy.
I wondered if Ant's may have misquoted it.

I found the wording on Towergate's web site:-
  • "8. We will not pay for loss or damage caused by You towing Your caravan if Your Caravan weighs in excess of 95% of the towing vehicle’s kerb weight"
This is interesting, becasue the wording states the weight of the caravan and not the caravans MTPLM. This means for them to prove a caravan was more than 95% of the Kerbweight, they would have to weigh the caravan, and as others have pointed out that would be difficult when its strewn across a road. It also makes it difficult for the caravanner to comply without visiting a weighbridge every time.

We also know how difficult it can be to obtain an actual kerbweight figure for some cars, and some manufacturers only offer a range of values that is not model specific.

However It does not mean you cannot tow a caravan that is greater than 95%, providing its within the tow vehicles permitted range, becasue when being towed a trailer is classed as part of the road vehicle and is covered by your tow vehicle insurance, but only for third party claims resulting from a towing related incident. It just means the caravan its self and its content will not be covered for loss or damage.

For simplicity, if you choose a caravan with an MTPLM of less than 95% then you should be fine.
 
Mar 17, 2020
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You were NOT warned about anything !!

My intervention was after the following post to yours.
As for "nipping in the bud", Myself and Parksy have spent many hours and many days basically rescuing this Forum from the way it used to be, which believe me was not a nice place.
Therefore it has worked very well that when we see a response or post that invites controversy, it will be flagged and whatever action is needed is taken, be that a gentle reminder all the way up to posts being deleted and in some cases users banned from the Forum.

It is very sensible to read the Forum Rules and understand the limits.

Thanks for this Damian.

Parksy had already made me aware in a friendly and highly appreciated manner that it was not my post that was being questioned.
I had mistakenly thought your intervention was not solely to warn the poster who responded to my post - it was addressed to "guys".
I felt my response was courteous and not without a hint of humour. To be sure of that I had included emoji.

I am delighted that both you and Parksy have "cleaned up the forum" and I genuinely congratulate on the work you have done. I have no quarrel with that having experienced the anarchy found elsewhere.

I do try my best to be sensible you may rest assured - and I have read and understood forum rules.
 
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This is the first time I have actually heard of a limit like this being stipulated in a caravan policy.
I wondered if Ant's may have misquoted it.

I found the wording on Towergate's web site:-
  • "8. We will not pay for loss or damage caused by You towing Your caravan if Your Caravan weighs in excess of 95% of the towing vehicle’s kerb weight"
This is interesting, becasue the wording states the weight of the caravan and not the caravans MTPLM. This means for them to prove a caravan was more than 95% of the Kerbweight, they would have to weigh the caravan, and as others have pointed out that would be difficult when its strewn across a road. It also makes it difficult for the caravanner to comply without visiting a weighbridge every time.

We also know how difficult it can be to obtain an actual kerbweight figure for some cars, and some manufacturers only offer a range of values that is not model specific.

However It does not mean you cannot tow a caravan that is greater than 95%, providing its within the tow vehicles permitted range, becasue when being towed a trailer is classed as part of the road vehicle and is covered by your tow vehicle insurance, but only for third party claims resulting from a towing related incident. It just means the caravan its self and its content will not be covered for loss or damage.

For simplicity, if you choose a caravan with an MTPLM of less than 95% then you should be fine.
Thank for the reply.
I might give the insurance company a ring to try to clarify their definition of weight.
I do suspect it will be the MTPLM.
The weight figures for the car came from the V5C document.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Thank for the reply.
I might give the insurance company a ring to try to clarify their definition of weight.
I do suspect it will be the MTPLM.
The weight figures for the car came from the V5C document.

Just be aware that the V5c document doesn't quote kerbweight, but mass in service (otherwise also known as mass in running order).
 

JTQ

May 7, 2005
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Just be aware that the V5c document doesn't quote kerbweight, but mass in service (otherwise also known as mass in running order).

Is it vehicle or even model year and trim specific, or just a generic value, in this case for a Passat?

My experience hints at it reflecting a baseline model, not our generally speced up UK offerings, hence IMO the first port of call, in a weight critical situation as here should be a weighbridge to understand what that vehicle's actual value is.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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It just goes to show that Towergate don’t really understand what they are asking for with such a loose definition presented to the would be, or existing customers. Or do they really expect each customer to go and weigh their car.
 
May 7, 2012
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It is very badly worded as because it fails on two counts.
It does not use MTPLM which means to turn down a claim they would have to establish the actual weight of the caravan. If the caravan is in bits all over the road this is impossible, and even after a minor accident they are unlikely to establish this unless it is taken to a weighbridge and that is unlikely. What you would normally get is a engineer examining the caravan at a repairers or where it is kept and by that time most of the contents will have been removed.
They might just about get this through where the MIRO was very close to the 95% figure, saying that any contents would do this, but they then hit a second problem which is what is kerb weight.
There have been endless arguments on here, and it is clear there is no legal definition. The makers figures are not this and tend to be generic figures for several variations and it does not normally include the driver of any contents. The only sure way to establish this would be to have weighed the vehicle and you will normally find this is a bit heavier than the published figures.
My feeling is that they will realise the error of the wording when they try to turn a claim down and find they cannot do it. What it does show is that you need to check your policy for things like this.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Is it vehicle or even model year and trim specific, or just a generic value, in this case for a Passat?

My experience hints at it reflecting a baseline model, not our generally speced up UK offerings, hence IMO the first port of call, in a weight critical situation as here should be a weighbridge to understand what that vehicle's actual value is.

The mass in service value in the V5c refers only to that particular car of the same model which the manufacturer submitted for type approval. According to the regulations, it applies to a base model without any factory fitted options, so it may be considerably less than the weight of the actual caravan in question.

There have been endless arguments on here, and it is clear there is no legal definition.

There most certainly is a legal definition of kerbweight. It is defined in The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, Part1, Regulation 3 (Interpretation)
 
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Jun 20, 2005
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My CAMC policy contains no such clause. Strikes me this” hidden” condition must be brought to the forefront of all their sales literature.
I’d love to know their reasoning and justification in such a restriction and how they, not the Insured, calculate and justify 95%
 
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You would have to ask Towergate themselves for their reasoning, but it's almost certainly related to limiting their risk of having to pay out, and thus improving their profits.

I wonder if they have actually used that clause to reject a claim?

Has anyone else found a similar clause in their caravan insurance?

It just goes to show how important it is to read the t&C's before taking on a policy, and any changes if you choose to renew. Just consider if you had an outfit that exceeded 95% and was acceptable last year, but the company introduced a new clause in the annual revision, suddenly you would be paying for a policy that won't pay out!

It also highlights that you cannot assume policies from different companies are directly comparable. It's for reasons like this that some providers may seem to be cheaper but in the long run may not be better value.
 
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May 7, 2012
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If this is a new condition at renewal then the insurer has to draw attention to it in the renewal papers. most years there will be something so you should check that.
I assume the condition was added after a bad experience, but it is so badly worded that it will be almost impossible to enforce.
Do watch out for a similar condition in your car insurance, as some have this.
 
Jun 20, 2005
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Fully agree Ray,
in fairness to Towergate they have a very clear section as follows. There are a number of restrictions.
Towergate are the Broker , the policy seems to be underwritten by AIG and AXA.
Are there any restrictions on cover?
We will not pay for loss or damage caused by you towing your caravan if your caravan weighs more than 95% of the towing vehicle’s kerb weight
 
Mar 12, 2020
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You would have to ask Towergate themselves for their reasoning, but it's almost certainly related to limiting their risk of having to pay out, and thus improving their profits.

I wonder if they have actually used that clause to reject a claim?

Has anyone else found a similar clause in their caravan insurance?

It just goes to show how important it is to read the t&C's before taking on a policy, and any changes if you choose to renew. Just consider if you had an outfit that exceeded 95% and was acceptable last year, but the company introduced a new clause in the annual revision, suddenly you would be paying for a policy that won't pay out!

It also highlights that you cannot assume policies from different companies are directly comparable. It's for reasons like this that some providers may seem to be cheaper but in the long run may not be better value.
I tried contacting Towergate.
The answer machine message was that the office was closed until further notice. I will try in the future in an attempt to get them to clarify what the mean by caravan weight.
 
Sep 24, 2008
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Our first caravan was a sprite pulled by Ford Cortina 1500cc in 1964. Travelled all over uk, remember at Malaig had a problem going up the hill near bye. The purpose of my thread is that we had no idea of weight ratios. I done my own tow bar fitting plus electrics and gas work underneath when it had a problem. To think about todays safety compared with that time I just wonder how we done it.
 

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