85% debate continuation

[otherclive]

I agree I’ve towed farm trailers with straw bales on using my Disco 2, Sorento and SWB Pajero. But the cars where all in low ratio and moving quite slowly on a farm road. Cannot recall the various weights but the three cars weighed around 2 tonne kerbweight and had max towing limits of between 3-3.5 tonnes. But I really would not have wanted to venture out onto the highway in low ratio for any distance. Plus had no idea of the weight of the towed load or noseweights. But the drivetrains were quite unfazed. In the real world of caravanning my experience counted for nothing of relevance other than I could tow a motorhome off its pitch if required 🤭

 

[Lutz]

As I think I've mentioned before, no-one on the Continent has ever heard of a weight ratio recommendation and many owners take full advantage of the towload limit, even when towing a caravan. Of course, the lower speed limit of 80km/h that applies in many countries compared with the 60mph in the UK may have something to do with it, too.

 

[JezzerB]

There's far more to it than simply drive strength though Ray if you read back through this debate.

 

[Parksy]

As I think I've mentioned before, no-one on the Continent has ever heard of a weight ratio recommendation and many owners take full advantage of the towload limit, even when towing a caravan. Of course, the lower speed limit of 80km/h that applies in many countries compared with the 60mph in the UK may have something to do with it, too.

The fact that major routes in Britain are more congested then those on the continent could influence the 85% recommendation.
It's true that vehicle technology has advanced since the advice was originally formulated, but UK roads have become more crowded and driving conditions more challenging.

 

[Dustydog]

And of course caravans have got longer , wider ( 8 foot) and present a far greater area then many years ago. Other than motorways you can’t race. Here in Herefordshire and Shropshire the pot holes are speed reducing all by themselves😢😢

 

[Lutz]

The fact that major routes in Britain are more congested then those on the continent could influence the 85% recommendation.
It's true that vehicle technology has advanced since the advice was originally formulated, but UK roads have become more crowded and driving conditions more challenging.

And of course caravans have got longer , wider ( 8 foot) and present a far greater area then many years ago. Other than motorways you can’t race. Here in Herefordshire and Shropshire the pot holes are speed reducing all by themselves😢😢

One would assume that the greater congestion and apparent poorer condition of the roads in Britain would bring the speeds down to Continental levels and caravans have got larger on the Continent, too, so the above arguments don't really explain why the Continentals get by without a weight ratio recommendation.

 

[ProfJohnL]

For the contributors who are still constructively adding to this debate, I sense a the is trend that questions whether the towing advice is actually necessary. So it raises the question what is the towing advice actually trying to do?

What are your views?

 

[Gafferbill]

............. the above arguments don't really explain why the Continentals get by without a weight ratio recommendation.

The Continentals have laws instead of recommendations!

Most countries, as you say, have an 80kph (50mph) speed limit for all caravans on all roads.
British outfits that can travel at 100kph (60mph)in the UK, have to slow down whilst visiting Germany for example....... (they are unlikely to bother to obtain a German test certificate allowing towing at 100kph)

The German test sets a weight ratio of 100% by law (not a recommendation)
Who decided that was the correct figure?......perhaps 105% is perfectly safe!

No shock absorbers on your caravan.....then you can only have a 30% weight ratio by law if you want to tow at 100kph in Germany.
Such a caravan (without shock sbsorbers) in the UK can legally be towed at 60mph at weight ratios well in excess of 100%..........we've never heard of that 30% ratio here in the UK and appear to get by!

Recommendations or laws.......often challenged and often ignored.

 

[camel]

For the contributors who are still constructively adding to this debate, I sense a the is trend that questions whether the towing advice is actually necessary. So it raises the question what is the towing advice actually trying to do?

What are your views?

For new caravanners the 85% is a good starting point that is what the towing advice is trying to do help someone to tow safely, and it's only a matter of time before they will be confident enough to know the feel of the caravan when they are towing and instead of one 6kg gas bottle they will put two in the locker why not had a bike rack on the car and put the awning in the caravan not a problem happy safe caravanning,

 

[JezzerB]

Given the roads are 'more challenging' I read that as you can't move on most roads these days and 60 is not always acheivable anyway! Self regulation?!!!

 

[ProfJohnL]

There is a big difference between advice and laws. where as contravening a law can involve a sanction, where as advice has no sanctions attached to it.

Regardless of how and why the German towing regulations were created, it is not the meat of this thread which is about the UK industry caravanning 85% advice, which so many people seem to accept without question , and some consider it to be sacrosanct they treat it and discuss it as if it is a law. (Added edit or worse as the definition of a safe tow.

 

[Parksy]

Given the roads are 'more challenging' I read that as you can't move on most roads these days and 60 is not always acheivable anyway! Self regulation?!!!

But when you are able to travel at or near to 60 mph on dual carriageways etc; you are sharing the road with more cars, more trucks which are bigger and heavier and ruts, potholes, smart motorways and more lunatic drivers than ever.

 

[Parksy]

There is a big difference between advice and laws. where as contravening a law can involve a sanction, where as advice has no sanctions attached to it.

Regardless of how and why the German towing regulations were created, it is not the meat of this thread which is about the UK industry caravanning 85% advice, which so many people seem to accept without question , and some consider it to be sacrosanct they treat it and discuss it as if it is a law.

Continantal custom and practice was introduced to this thread by Lutz in support of your own argument Prof.
You didn't try to limit the scope of the discussion then. 🤔
Many people accept the 85% recommendation 'without question' because, having paid good money for membership of one of the major clubs or to purchase a copy of Practical Caravan Magazine why would they wilfully ignore the advice given by the clubs or magazine?
I wouldn't imagine that many people are too bothered either way, and certainly not bothered enough about the advice that they have paid for to question it.
When a person or organisation describes the 85% figure as 'the 85% rule' they are describing a wideley accepted ' rule' in exactly the same way that mathematicians describe 'laws'.
The laws have no legal consequences but they are universally described as laws.
The 85% rule has no basis in law, I've never seen any authoritative account which tries to claim otherwise because the word 'rule' is merely a colloquialism.
Most of us realise this after reading the full text of the advice that we paid for.

 

[JezzerB]

I think the regulations or advice anywhere in any country - is of interest in adding to this thread but that is just my personal opinion.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Continantal custom and practice was introduced to this thread by Lutz in support of your own argument Prof.
You didn't try to limit the scope of the discussion then. 🤔
Many people accept the 85% recommendation 'without question' because, having paid good money for membership of one of the major clubs or to purchase a copy of Practical Caravan Magazine why would they wilfully ignore the advice given by the clubs or magazine?
I wouldn't imagine that many people are too bothered either way, and certainly not bothered enough about the advice that they have paid for to question it.
When a person or organisation describes the 85% figure as 'the 85% rule' they are describing a wideley accepted ' rule' in exactly the same way that mathematicians describe 'laws'.
The laws have no legal consequences but they are universally described as laws.
The 85% rule has no basis in law, I've never seen any authoritative account which tries to claim otherwise because the word 'rule' is merely a colloquialism.
Most of us realise this after reading the full text of the advice that we paid for.

Hello Parksy,

I have re-read the entire thread, and the introduction of the German towing speed restrictions was first mentioned in post:488039 on the Feb 17, 2020. There were some very specific points made in that comment which are factually incorrect. Both JTQ & Lutz responded to the post. Their responses did not align for or against the threads principle discussion. They only sought to clarify the German law by defining how its criteria are applied.

There may be similar concerns about the way the German authorities produced there limits, but there are two major differences, the first its not offered just as advice, its their law, and secondly any one found guilty will have sanctions applied.

I feel It is incredibly dangerous to compare the industry towing advice's colloquial misrepresentation to Mathematical or scientific "Laws"

Mathematical and Scientific "Laws" have been thoroughly investigated and have withstood challenges to be shown they are as repeatable as can be. They have earn't their description as a "law" through solid logical appraisal.

But despite their apparent certainty, in the words of Albert Einstein who is believed to have said: "No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong." they constantly remain open to challenge. In the event of a challenge demonstrating there is uncertainty about the "law" further work is undertaken to review it and if necessary revise it.

Please show us where similar work or peer review has been carried out to verify the industries guidance to make it have the equivalent authority to a mathematical or scientific "law"

You have described the industry advice as being a "Rule of Thumb" and I can accept that, but unfortunately it is more often than not repeated but missing the "of Thumb" part, which leaves it with a very different perception of its meaning.

More experienced caravanners may well be aware the advice is only a "rule of thumb" but answers in forums and in some magazines often do not make it clear, and that's when a novice caravanner reads the shortened advice which appears to have been given a sense of authority by the use of authoritative terms or the omission of the advisory notices and other towing criteria.

I have stated several times that all references about the industry advice I have seen from the caravanning organisations have stated it is advice, It is the public and some magazine articles who often major on the weight ratio, and forget to include the other tips.

With regards people who may or may not "wilfully ignore the advice given by the clubs or magazine" I cannot speak on their behalf, you would have to ask them personally. But I do observe we have had many forum questions about outfits that do contravene the advice, Perhaps they only saw the magazine in the dentist's waiting room and didn't pay for it!!!

 

[Parksy]

Hello Parksy,

I have re-read the entire thread, and the introduction of the German towing speed restrictions was first mentioned in post:488039 on the Feb 17, 2020. There were some very specific points made in that comment which are factually incorrect. Both JTQ & Lutz responded to the post. Their responses did not align for or against the threads principle discussion. They only sought to clarify the German law by defining how its criteria are applied.

But it was when Gafferbill responded to the recent post from Lutz that you sought to limit the terms of the discussion.

I feel It is incredibly dangerous to compare the industry towing advice's colloquial misrepresentation to Mathematical or scientific "Laws".....
...Please show us where similar work or peer review has been carried out to verify the industries guidance to make it have the equivalent authority to a mathematical or scientific "law"
You have described the industry advice as being a "Rule of Thumb" and I can accept that, but unfortunately it is more often than not repeated but missing the "of Thumb" part, which leaves it with a very different perception of its meaning.

I find it dangerous and irritating when almost any forum topic which mentions caravan weight is swamped by off topic unsubstantiated waffle which tries to discredit the almost universally accepted advice for newbies given by both caravan clubs and all reputable publications.
At least this thread has kept the seemingly endless theorising confined to one place.
The aforementioned clubs and publications are prepared to accept that the overwhelming majority of adults reading the sum total of advice posses a reasonable level of intelligence.
They don't need to be so pedantic with every written word that their client base will feel that they are being treated like children.
With respect, I doubt if either of the clubs or the respective magazine editors will lose too much sleep over your non-acceptance or personal interpretation of their prose Prof.
They seem to be doing ok from what I can see.

More experienced caravanners may well be aware the advice is only a "rule of thumb" but answers in forums and in some magazines often do not make it clear, and that's when a novice caravanner reads the shortened advice which appears to have been given a sense of authority by the use of authoritative terms or the omission of the advisory notices and other towing criteria.
I have stated several times that all references about the industry advice I have seen from the caravanning organisations have stated it is advice, It is the public and some magazine articles who often major on the weight ratio, and forget to include the other tips.
With regards people who may or may not "wilfully ignore the advice given by the clubs or magazine" I cannot speak on their behalf, you would have to ask them personally. But I do observe we have had many forum questions about outfits that do contravene the advice, Perhaps they only saw the magazine in the dentist's waiting room and didn't pay for it!!!

Everyone can rest easy now then, because this subject has cropped up so many times on this forum, quite often at great length in response to a question about something else.
The dental patients might even read this thread on their i-phones as they await the tender mercies of their dentist.
It might cut down on the need for anaesthetic if the patient is half asleep before they sit in the dreaded chair.

 

[Raywood]

I think that anyone who reads this, or other forums, can be in no doubt that it is advice, as once the question is asked we all put forward our slightly differing views, but all make it quite clear it is advice and not law. Possibly this is the only bit of the subject we all agree on.

 

[camel]

I have said that all along that the 85% is advice and not law so take it or leave it personally if I was new to caravanning I would take it and experience will tell you what you think is a safe comfortable towing weight in time for yourself you might even want a % of 113% , it's up to you,

 

[Johnb]

Without ploughing through the whole topic and certainly not interested in "arguing" for no reason other than having an argument ( I sometime think forums, for some, are primarily a means to fill a void in their lives (obviously they have "quiet" wives!)), here's my take on the topic:

I think it's accepted that the 85% is advice and without doubt that advice is widely published.

I'm sure the advice is given in good faith and is intended to provide a realistic weight ratio for towing a caravan.

Having said that I'm equally sure it was devised primarily for the benefit of new-comers and without doubt there are many experienced caravanners who safely tow at much higher ratios.

So far as I'm concerned I have no doubt that a sudden evasive swerve at 60 mph on a motorway, all else being equal regarding tyres, load distribution, nose-weight and the rest, is more likely to end in tears where a high weight ratio is involved.

Surely in dangerous situations the car should control the caravan and not the other way round.

The experienced caravanner who tows with a high ratio will be well capable of driving appropriately and avoid potential dangerous situations - well......... that is until one develops that s/he cannot predict nor have any control over.

Then a heavy car with lighter van would undoubtedly be my preference.

 

[otherclive]

Without ploughing through the whole topic and certainly not interested in "arguing" for no reason other than having an argument ( I sometime think forums, for some, are primarily a means to fill a void in their lives (obviously they have "quiet" wives!)), here's my take on the topic:

I think it's accepted that the 85% is advice and without doubt that advice is widely published.

I'm sure the advice is given in good faith and is intended to provide a realistic weight ratio for towing a caravan.

Having said that I'm equally sure it was devised primarily for the benefit of new-comers and without doubt there are many experienced caravanners who safely tow at much higher ratios.

So far as I'm concerned I have no doubt that a sudden evasive swerve at 60 mph on a motorway, all else being equal regarding tyres, load distribution, nose-weight and the rest, is more likely to end in tears where a high weight ratio is involved.

Surely in dangerous situations the car should control the caravan and not the other way round.

The experienced caravanner who tows with a high ratio will be well capable of driving appropriately and avoid potential dangerous situations - well......... that is until one develops that s/he cannot predict nor have any control over.

Then a heavy car with lighter van would undoubtedly be my preference.

So what void did you feel the need to fill?

 

[Damian]

I know that cabin fever is setting in , but please play nicely guys.

 

[JezzerB]

Hiding head under parapet here but we' live in a very rural area. Come harvest have you seen the flat bed sometimes twin trailers towing bales stacked sometimes as high as a house towed by a standard articlulated lorry tractor type unit. The thing wobbles in a puff of win d and sheds straw everywhere. Now even I think that looks dangerous!!!

 

[Johnb]

I know that cabin fever is setting in , but please play nicely guys.

Errrrr.

I try to be reasonable and factual (as I understand things) and respectful when I post.

It comes as a bit of a surprise that:

"I sometime think forums, for some, are primarily a means to fill a void in their lives (obviously they have "quiet" wives!)" obviously touched a nerve with otherclive.

It was not intended to.

It was, perhaps poorly put, an attempt at humour. (Nagging wives and all that!)

However, I apologise for causing such a response and urge those reading my words to see the positive and not look for the negative. I did not intend to antagonise anyone.

As for my "cabin fever" I can assure you I am not suffering from it. That's not to say others are not so fortunate of course.

Clearly as a newcomer I'm not up top speed with personalities on the forum, nor the style of moderation.

 

[Parksy]

On social media it's very difficult to gauge how humour through the medium of text with no facial expressions or vocal inflection will be received.
We try keep the style of moderating light within the parameters of forum rules, but if a disagreement looks like it might develop a timely intervention can save a lot of time and possible ill feeling further down the line.
It's no big deal, think of Damians gentle intervention as the police patrol car travelling at 69 mph down the motorway 😉

 

[Johnb]

On social media it's very difficult to gauge how humour through the medium of text with no facial expressions or vocal inflection will be received.
We try keep the style of moderating light within the parameters of forum rules, but if a disagreement looks like it might develop a timely intervention can save a lot of time and possible ill feeling further down the line.
It's no big deal, think of Damians gentle intervention as the police patrol car travelling at 69 mph down the motorway 😉

I've no doubt that your way of operating is infinitely preferable to the "free for all" and petty arguing on other forums so I applaud you for it.

I suppose I was rather taken aback being warned not to "argue" when only a single response was posted. Talk about nipping in the bud!

I promise to do my best to antagonise no one, abide by the forum rules and obey the "Scout" law!