A Reminder for Those Carrying LPG Cylinders in Car

[Damian]

Just a reminder of the danger of carrying LPG cylinders in cars.

UPDATED: The Isle of Wight Fire and Rescue Service are attending an incident involving a gas cylinder in a car on a residential street in Newport this afternoon (Monday).
2 fire appliances from Newport and the Incident Command Unit are on scene at Howard Close, off Cross Lane, where an LPG gas cylinder is leaking inside a VW Golf.
A cordon has been erected and a monitor jet has been set up.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I hope no one is injured or worse.

The cause and outcome may be edifying for those who do not understand that misusing or storing LPG can have very serious consequences.

 

[Raywood]

It is well worth remembering the safety precautions needed if you have to do this and sometimes it may be unavoidable. The cylinder should be upright and fastened securely so that it cannot move or fall over.
A cylinder is generally quite heavy and can do damage if it moves, but even worse, one that is on its side can in some circumstances leak, which could be very dangerous.

 

[Hutch]

About two years ago, my neighbour, who is a buildings inspector told me about a house he was called to check, a gas bottle had been stored in the garage and due to " Something" had exploded, causing extensive damage.
Since then my spare bottle is stored at the bottom of the garden in the shed.

 

[otherclive]

My shed is too well insulated and tight so the bottles live at the end of the garden in black bin liners.

 

[DaveA1]

Some years back we were doing a Health & Safety session on peoples perseption on what is safe and not. ( I think the trainer was from the HSE but could be wrong, long time ago).
A patient arrived at A&E badly burnt, on clothing on the front of his body, the only hair left on his head was at the back, he was in a critical condition.
It was in the U S of A and this chap had a LPG bottle that he placed against the wall, the fired a .22 bullet into it, he survived that. then he walk towards it with a lit cigarette lighter, hence his appearance in A&E.
Apparently he wanted to see how near he could get before it exploded.
When the police were taking to him afterwards, he had no idea what would happen and that he would end up in hospital. Although he got his answer. :silly: :silly:

 

[ProfJohnL]

The advice is that you should not carry LPG bottles inside a car or any other enclosed space that does not have a lot of free ventilation at both high and low level to allow any spillage or gas escape. Bottles MUST be kept upright even in storage.

 

[Hutch]

I fully agree, that bottles must be kept upright, but necessity needs myself to carry on empty bottle to my dealer and then bring home a full bottle, It is strapped into the luggage space of my car, I suppose I could travel with the windows fully open , but !!!

 

[Danddandy]

I think most of us use a car to transport an empty gas bottle and return with a full bottle. What is the alternative ?

 

[Damian]

Update: It seems that the LPG cylinder had a leaking valve, which was ignited......................luckily the FB prevented the cylinder exploding but there is not much left of the car,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the cylinder lives to fight another day if it passes the testing after refurb.

 

[Craigyoung]

My empty one gets transported in the front passenger seat in the footwell off the car with the front seat pulled right forward so it does not move so it is wedged.

 

[VicMallows]

Update: It seems that the LPG cylinder had a leaking valve,.

It would be interesting to know what type of cylinder/valve it was .... though unlikely we ever will.
I have experienced leaking valves with 'clip-on' type cylinders when disconnecting a regulator/adapter. Usually these can be cleared by replacing/removing the regulator a few times, but it is a pity that there is no secondary seal available (as with the screw-on cap of a Butane 4.5kg, for example.).
Camping Gaz cylinders also seem prone to sticking valves ...although they DO have a secondary seal as long as you still have the cap+good washer.

 

[VicMallows]

I think most of us use a car to transport an empty gas bottle and return with a full bottle. What is the alternative ?

In, Spain, motorhomers who have scooters with them tend to balance a 12.5kg cylinder (total 26kg) between their legs on the way to the nearest outlet!. One hardy chap carried his for nearly a km horizontally across his chest with both hands hmy:

 

[Dustydog]

For decades I have transported new cylinders from our local dealer 4 miles away. Mmm . Dancing with the devil it seems :woohoo: Assuming the valve is fully operational what is the difference transporting the cylinder on its side or upright, both fully secure?

 

[VicMallows]

Assuming the valve is fully operational what is the difference transporting the cylinder on its side or upright, both fully secure?

I tend to agree. The only difference would occur in the event of the cylinder becoming over-pressurised (due to extreme heat or being overfull). If horizontal, the overpressure valve would release liquid LPG rather than gas. I cannot see the end result being a lot different.

 

[Damian]

The reason for transporting LPG cylinders such as those used by the caravan owner upright is that the cylinder is engineered for the neck of the cylinder to accept gas pressure and not liquid pressure (which is present lower down).
It is also to prevent the liquid gas contacting the seals and damaging them.

Quote " the overpressure valve would release liquid LPG rather than gas. I cannot see the end result being a lot different. "

The end result would be a lot different.
With just gas escaping it has already expanded from its liquid state.
Liquid escaping will expand 480 times , so 1 ltr of liquid will produce 480 Lts of gas !!!

 

[ProfJohnL]

I tend to agree. The only difference would occur in the event of the cylinder becoming over-pressurised (due to extreme heat or being overfull). If horizontal, the overpressure valve would release liquid LPG rather than gas. I cannot see the end result being a lot different.

Hello Vic
As I am certain you do know that liquefied gas when release into the atmosphere will expand by more than 250 times, and of course for it to form an explosive ratio needs to mix at about 10% with air, so a small leak of liquified gas is far more dangerous as it will more quickly reach an explosive ratio than just a vapour leak.

In addition if the liquefied gas touches skin, then the heat it will absorb to expand will cause sever deep burns to the skin. The gas has already expanded an becasue it has much less thermal mass contact with skin will often do no damage.

There is always the risk of the gas air mixture becoming flammable or even explosive.

On the presumption that the weakest and thus most vulnerable point of a gas cylinder is the brass valve, if the bottle is on its side and the valve leaks, the release of pressure will allow liquified gas to escape, This can make an unsecured cylinder become a deadly projectile and or a flame thrower is the release is ignited. By comparison the the same fault occurred to a properly secured upright bottle, it will only vent gas not liquid. An resulting thrust will try to push the cylinder into the ground and not sideways across the floor. The venting of the gas will still have a good projection, but it is less than if liquid is venting.

Neither is safe but liquid projection is far worse than gas only.

Fire Service action on gas bottles involved in a fire is always to treat with extreme care, but some of the danger is reduced if they can see the valve is venting gas directly upwards and burning off, as they know the bottle is now balancing is gas emission with increased temperature and pressure and unlikely to hydraulically split or explode because it is venting.

 

[VicMallows]

Apologies. I was intending to imply that a release of EITHER gas or liquid because of severe overpressure is going to be serious. Of course neither should occur under any normal circumstances.

Damian, I do not really buy the issue about the seals? .... the LPG has entered the cylinder as liquid in contact with the seals?

 

[Damian]

Quote " Damian, I do not really buy the issue about the seals? .... the LPG has entered the cylinder as liquid in contact with the seals?"

I defer to Calor and BOC to provide the information.
They make them, they fill them, they know much more than I do about them, so I trust them to tell the truth.

 

[Hutch]

Apologies. I was intending to imply that a release of EITHER gas or liquid because of severe overpressure is going to be serious. Of course neither should occur under any normal circumstances.

Damian, I do not really buy the issue about the seals? .... the LPG has entered the cylinder as liquid in contact with the seals?

The " O "rings as seasl are there to stop gas release, the O rings are manufactured from different materials, for the different fluids / gasses that they are in contact with . Vic is correct.

 

[Damian]

I am at a loss as to why for some reason people seem to be advocating the transport of LPG cylinders on their side when the nationally accepted guidelines and regulations for transport of LPG is upright...............................

 

[Dustydog]

I am at a loss as to why for some reason people seem to be advocating the transport of LPG cylinders on their side when the nationally accepted guidelines and regulations for transport of LPG is upright...............................

Damian,
Now I’m worried and so should Calor be. If it was safety critical there should be a massive sign warning how the cylinder should be placed at all times. Further if so critical, those selling such cylinders should be providing both verbal and written instructions every time a sale is made. :woohoo:

 

[Hutch]

I am at a loss as to why for some reason people seem to be advocating the transport of LPG cylinders on their side when the nationally accepted guidelines and regulations for transport of LPG is upright...............................

Damian,
Now I’m worried and so should Calor be. If it was safety critical there should be a massive sign warning how the cylinder should be placed at all times. Further if so critical, those selling such cylinders should be providing both verbal and written instructions every time a sale is made. :woohoo:

This is not a serious point, But, should we have a sign on the car, showing that we are carrying, a gas cylinder, when changing gas bottles, so the emergency services, know we carry them. I haven't noticed LPG cars having the signs, are they required ?

 

[ProfJohnL]

... the cylinder is engineered for the neck of the cylinder to accept gas pressure and not liquid pressure (which is present lower down)....

Hello Damain,

The pressure throughout a cylinder of LPG is same at all points gas or liquid.

 

[Damian]

Quote " Damian,
Now I’m worried and so should Calor be. If it was safety critical there should be a massive sign warning how the cylinder should be placed at all times. Further if so critical, those selling such cylinders should be providing both verbal and written instructions every time a sale is made."

Calor state very clearly that cylinders should be stored upright. The fact that people ignore it is their probem , not Calors

Quote " Hello Damain,

The pressure throughout a cylinder of LPG is same at all points gas or liquid. "

So it may be, I dont know and am not really bothered either way, I was just quoting what I was advised by BOC and Calor.