Achieving 75kg Nose Weight on Bailey Cadiz 2

[Alan03]

Hi all,

We're about to embark on our first Caravan and quite like the Bailey Cadiz 2 which has MTPLM 1497kg MRO 1343kg.

I drive an Avensis 2.0 4d4 Tourer (2013 model) and note the Mass in service is 1658kg, I assume this to be the vehicle kerb weight plus nominal allowance for driver?

The maximum towable mass of a braked trailer is 1600kg, I also have 310NM torque... All seems okayish so far, but appear to be 90% tow weight which seems slightly high on the 85% rule, but here's my main concern;

Drawbar Load, which I'm assuming to be Nose Weight is rated at 75kg... Should I be concerned at this or do you think I could achieve that nose weight for the van quoted above.

I appreciate my car doesn't seem a perfect match for towing but as this is our first experience within the world of caravaning. I'd rather not have to change the car as well, as it could prove to be a costly exercise if we realised caravaning isn't for us.

 

[Alan03]

Ah! meant to post this in the Technical category, can it be moved?

 

[Hutch]

Welcome Alan, as nearly always you will be opening a bag of worms, on this subject, but don't worry.
Try and get the nose weight , in my opinion, within 5 kg, of the max that your tow bar of your car. I am with the Prof, that bathroom scales, and raised to the height of your tow ball.
Lets not get over complicated though ( bag of worms )
That way your caravan shouldd ! Tow nicely. More weight at the front , less weight at the back. Avoid filling any space under the rear bed, ( if you have one). It is so easily to over weight your caravan.
Enjoy your touring.
Hutch.

 

[Beehpee]

Getting the nose weight up to required figure, in your case 75kg is usually easy, getting it down can often be more difficult but is achieved by distributing the load in the caravan, move load forwards to increase and backwards to lower, sounds easy but not quite as easy as it sounds but definitely doable, there’s plenty of information on here and simply by googling how to load a caravan correctly will give you all the info you could possibly want.

BP

 

[Alan03]

Hi Hutch,

Thanks for that Hutch, the van in question has two rear single fixed bed, so will avoid leaving items in there.

However the majority of the time it will only be myself, the Boss and two Border Terriers max per trip, so there will be plenty of room in the back seats to relieve caravan of weight.

Will possibly invest in some proper nose weight scales until I build up some experience.

Cheers Alan

 

[otherclive]

Hi Hutch,

Thanks for that Hutch, the van in question has two rear single fixed bed, so will avoid leaving items in there.

However the majority of the time it will only be myself, the Boss and two Border Terriers max per trip, so there will be plenty of room in the back seats to relieve caravan of weight.

Will possibly invest in some proper nose weight scales until I build up some experience.

Cheers Alan

My van is nose heavy when unloaded and only 1 gas bottle in the front. I would do a static check first as mine requires weight aft of the axle and nothing goes on or under the front lounge lockers. So the payload tends to be just behind the axle and I do tend to place a couple of 10 litre water containers in a locker at the back of the caravan to fine tune noseweight. It handles absolutely fine
You will develop a feel as experience grows. I also use a spreadsheet of payload equipment weights and have different kit for different trips. The spreadsheet helps me to stay consistent on the different loadings.

Driving has a big effect on stability. So take it easy on your first outings. Look out for HGVS and coaches overtaking you. Be aware of wind direction and strength and I still never overtake going downhill in fact I ease back a bit going downhill. Sorry if I’m doing a granny sucking eggs.

 

[Alan03]

Absolutely not OtherClive... Any and all tips are greatly appreciated!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Allen,

85% is only guidance, it has no legal authority, it stems from the recognition that mainly due to their size, and how they couple to the tow vehicle behind the rear axle, when they can impart some considerable forces back through the coupling to the car. The car needs to be capable of managing those forces, and a significant factor but not the only one is the weight of the tow vehicle.

I strongly advise not spending money on a bespoke nose load guage, None of the retail products measure nose load correctly, specifically the do no allow you to adjust the height of the hitch to match the coupled height, which is the only height at which you will get a true nose load reading. Do not be taken in by some manufactures who claim compliance with British standards, their product also fails to set the ride height of the hitch.

Even allowing for the relative inaccuracy of some bathroom scales, you will get just as much accuracy than the vast majority of bespoke nose load gauges.

With the car and caravan loaded as if ready to go on holiday, pull up on a horizontal road, and measure the distance from the ground to the under side of the caravan hitch. Then using the caravan step some magazines and a pair of bathroom scales raise the scales on the steps and magazines to the same height. Uncouple the caravan and rest the Hitch on the scales the reading you get is your nose weight.

Raise bathroom scales up on the caravan step to support it, use a few magazines on the step to raise the top of the scales to the same height as the ride height of the hitch.

 

[otherclive]

I used my bathroom scales as Prof recommends then I put the van back level on the drive and rechecked with the milenco gauge and there was a 10kg variation. But that allowed me to ‘calibrate’ the Milenco which I now tend to use when on the drive or on site.

 

[Thingy]

One bit of advice you have already is that you can "adjust" the noseweight by tinkering with the loading of things in the caravan........BUT

try not to put weight too far back in an attempt to counterbalance. Your weight should really be on, just before or slightly abaft of the axle. But the rear of the caravan can make for a very unpleasant journey and of course can be dangerous.

Over recent years, there have been lightweight gas bottles on the market. These are now discontinued for new purchases as I understant it, but looking on ebay you may be able to find a couple of Calor Lite. When you have them these can be exchanged for the same..........currently. There is apparently to be a new version of these but when? Two of these can save you 10+kg. Or travel with one cylinder.
I see so many people carry two ramps for levelling, but you only need one, better still a couple of short pieces of floorboard. Hookup cable in car saves weight on the nose too. Basically, if you have a low noseweight figure, just think sensibly when loading the front box.

You seem to have got the basic idea, car heavy......caravan light. Dont fall into the trap either of buying everything that seems a good idea in the accessory shop, time and experience will tell whether you need it or not.

As this is your first venture, I would draw your attention to the "bow wave effect" which can be disconcerting for a newbie. Basically the air displacement of a large vehicle (LGV) or a fast moving panel van can give your caravan a bit of a nudge. Its quite normal but be aware of it. Learn too to decipher what your mirrors are telling you, a vehicle that looks a fair way behind when you have overtaken can be nearer than you think. Just allow that bit extra until you get used to it.

Whislt on the subject of overtaking LGVs, has anybody else noticed they have stopped flashing you in, not just caravans but other LGVs too. I wonder whether its some sort of safety initiative. I remember years back, one company i worked for insisted we didnt do it. Fell on deaf ears but they surely did insist.

 

[Hutch]

A good and helpfull write up Thingy, Just to add, The worst HGV's to have pass us or be passed are the car transporters, lots of wind displacement, they shake the caravan all over the place, I tend to nòt overtake HGV's anymore, after a frightening snake, .
But all the same enjoy your caravanning.

 

[audiorob]

Bathroom scales and a wooden stake that fits into the hitch-head and stands secure on the scales. Cut to length so the van is then horizontal (no corner steadies lowered!). If for example the awning is in the centre of the floor you then need to lower the steadies, move the package back or forwards to adjust the noseweight until it's about right. I expect you will soon get used to a 'standard loading', as already noted other factors can affect the actual nosewieght when you are driving along!

Worth checking https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits to see the max speed when towing on road types.

One other tip is not to tow down a hill faster than you could tow up it. Caravan accidnets are relatively rare but when they occur may likely be due to poor loading (including overloading) and a heavy right foot!

 

[otherclive]

Bathroom scales and a wooden stake that fits into the hitch-head and stands secure on the scales. Cut to length so the van is then horizontal (no corner steadies lowered!). If for example the awning is in the centre of the floor you then need to lower the steadies, move the package back or forwards to adjust the noseweight until it's about right. I expect you will soon get used to a 'standard loading', as already noted other factors can affect the actual nosewieght when you are driving along!

Worth checking https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits to see the max speed when towing on road types.

One other tip is not to tow down a hill faster than you could tow up it. Caravan accidnets are relatively rare but when they occur may likely be due to poor loading (including overloading) and a heavy right foot!

My car would pull the van up U.K. motorway inclines quite a bit faster than I would drive down the incline. My approach is not to overtake going downhill and to ease off a bit and let the van “close up”

 

[Alan03]

Thanks for all your tips and advice guys it's greatly appreciated, I will enjoy reading different post on this forum as well as gaining any tips within the magazine as well... Cheers

 

[ProfJohnL]

Bathroom scales and a wooden stake that fits into the hitch-head and stands secure on the scales. Cut to length so the van is then horizontal (no corner steadies lowered!). If for example the awning is in the centre of the floor you then need to lower the steadies, move the package back or forwards to adjust the noseweight until it's about right. I expect you will soon get used to a 'standard loading', as already noted other factors can affect the actual nosewieght when you are driving along!

Worth checking https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits to see the max speed when towing on road types.

One other tip is not to tow down a hill faster than you could tow up it. Caravan accidnets are relatively rare but when they occur may likely be due to poor loading (including overloading) and a heavy right foot!

This advice is wrong!

Scientifically the nose load can only be determined when the hitch of the trailer is measured at the same height as when it it is coupled to the car. If its not the same height the reading it produces is wrong. (Due to the arc through which the trailers Centre of Gravity moves which changes its horizontal displacement from the trailers axle)

There is no scientific or practical requirement for the caravan to be horizontal when the towed or when nose load is measured. In fact it is more than likely the caravan when hitched will not be level.

On a practical and safety issue, using a stick to support the hitch on a pair of scales is quite dangerous as others have had the stick flip out. It is far safer to support the scales on the step and magazines. Added to which the height at which the hitch will settle when coupled is dependant on how the car and caravan is loaded, and thus will be different .

 

[jamestaylor18]

I have recently changed my van and now have a fixed bed. Having that massive amount of space under the bed, makes it very tempting to utilise the area for storage. I found on my first trip at 60mph the van move around quite a lot. On my last tip, I moved some items out from under the bed to over the axel, and I must admit it pulled a whole lot better! I stored my aquaroll and waste master under the bed, thinking they are lightweight plastic, but when you have got two aquarolls and a waste master, it soon adds up. Since putting them over the axel things seem a whole lot better.

I tend to find HGV's do not give me too much trouble, just a little nudge. Coaches tend to give me a considerable whack as they pass, and transporters... wow its like being in a washing machine! I have found you kinda need to be a whole lot more aware about what is around you traffic wise, but nothing, other than a transporter has given me any considerable instability.

 

[Hutch]

Yes, we have a Coachman 560, with the side bed, open access from the side, so easy to just push things like the outside table the two folding chairs Ramp, awning groundsheets, awning pegs and hammers, and when you pass an HGV or even worse, a car transporter and you get into a snake bad enough for the ATC to kick in, the silence is incredible. I SOON emptied out abot 40 plus kgs of kit from under there. It is very bare.
Hapy and safe touring folks.

 

[Icaru5]

Although this is a much debated topic, I feel the need to interject here guys ...

First of all, to dispel a myth. A caravan does not have a noseweight. There is no such thing.

When people refer to the noseweight of their caravan, they are generally referring to the vertical component of the centripetal force acting on the internal face of the TDC of the tow hitch. However, this is a dynamic force, and is a moment of force about the centre of the caravan’s axle, which will vary significantly depending on the angle of the caravan.

I’ll try to explain as best as possible, without the use of formulae or diagrams, and for the purposes of explanation, let’s ignore the [important] fact that the caravan will be in motion during your journey.

Imagine first of all, that you had loaded your caravan ready for your next trip, and it was situated on level ground, and you had used the bathroom scales method to measure the vertical component of the centripetal force on the internal face of the tow hitch [read NOSEWEIGHT] and the reading on your scales showed 90KG. Now, imagine if a giant picked up your caravan and held it between his thumb and index finger, in the centre of the each of the two wheels (assuming a single-axle van of course !) . The van’a axle would rotate until the “nose” was pointing vertically downwards. At this point, the effective “Noseweight” is zero. That’s because the vertical component of the centripetal force is zero. Now, if the giant was to place your scales on the ground and hold the van again by gripping the two wheels between his thumb and index finger so that the tow hitch was resting on top of the scales, but the angle of the van was 45 degrees, your scales would read 45KG.

That’s why there are significant discrepancies between the different methods of measuring the meaningless phrase which is often referred to as a caravan’s noseweight.

Those methods which measure the vertical component of the centripetal force when the van is level will give you the maximum reading on the scales.

The method that the Prof recommends, which involves adjusting the level of the van until it is at the same angle it would be at the moment you drive off on your holiday (as determined by the towball height when the towing vehicle is fully loaded) and then measuring the vertical component of the centripetal force will give you a lower reading, which as an instantaneous value is more accurate to begin with, but which wil gradually increase, and tend towads the horizontal value as your fuel depleats, and you start to throw the children, dogs, magazines and sweet wrappers out of the window as your journey progresses, in other words as your tow ball raises in equilibrium.

So, which is the correct method to be employed when measuring “noseweight” ? - Well, neither, because the term in itself is nonsense.

If you want to err on the side of caution and ascertain the maximum value of the vertical component of the cetntripetal force when the van is stationary, and level, then use the horizontal measuring method. If you want a more realistic value at the time you begin your journey, then use the Prof’s method.

People try to measure and adjust their “noseweight” based on their interpretation of the maximum official “load” values as stipulated by the manufacturers of the vehicle, the towball and the tow hitch, but form my experience, these are seldomly expressed as static values and of course when the outfit is bouncing along over an undulating road surface, the effective “noseweight” would be many times that measured using either of the two aforementioned methods.

Which method do I use ? ... The same method as recommended by the Prof, as I consider this to be a much more realistic value of the vertical component in a practical situation, despite the inevitable variation for the reasons already mentioned.

In any case, although it may not be a true representation of the situation when towing with any particular outfit, the maximum static value of “Noseweight” is achieved when the van is level.

Ic.

 

[Hutch]

Sorry Icaru, you are "almost totally" incorrect. Place your tow hitch on the ground, and you could still have a load of 10 kg or 100kgs, not zero. When the center of load of the caravan , gives the nose weight at a zero, kg. The tow hitch could be high or low. Compared to the tow ball of the car. Dropping the caravan tow hitch to match the tow ball will give you a nose weight for the caravan. Depending on how much weight you have above the axle, and the weight /per inches, I am old firm. Unless it's a vacum cleaner or 6 bottles of wine in the wine and drinks cabinet. Will give you a difference. Honestly its not that much 5 kg plus or minus on a long caravan.

Icaru I read your theory wrong, I apologise. Yes vertical down is zero. .

Sorry mate.

Agree with you but the the inches high and low on the hitch depends on very high loads in your caravan. Too late at night.

 

[Thingy]

Rightly or wrongly and whether it exists or not technically, noseweight is an important factor in the lives of caravanners. It may not be an accurate gauge due to the pendulum effect, but Its all we have as a guide to setting up safely for a journey.

Yes, you have to accept that noseweight is not an absolute figure and is subject to continuous flux whilst travelling, but you have to accept that being able to measure that downwards force is important, in a stationary situation reading way over what the car is designed for it is only going to be magnified during motion. Whether it exists or not and whether it is correctly named or not, its all we have to go on. Im certainly not going to totally discount it because it is innacurate.

If we are going to continually over think these things, you could include what the car is able to tow. As different forces exert themselves on the trailer, resistance will increase or decrease the nominal weight of the caravan as a towed vehicle. As an example, pulling a one ton dead weight on ice will feel like three tons on gravel. I am sure somebody will be along with a formula to say its not three tons but 2.999 recurring due to the ball bearing effect of gravel, but thats my point, does it really matter all that much?

75kg ish has always been good enough for me.

 

[DaveA1]

Wow B) B)