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Sep 7, 2009
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Hi I've a 2002 Lunar Lexon. Whilst lovingly giving it a wash was horrified to find problems with 2 out of the 3 front windows. On 1 of the windows the outer pane has come away completely from the inner. The middle 1 is also partially unstuck.

Can I glue the 2 surfaces back together & if so what should I use? Any help would be appreciated as we were hoping to go away on a very much needed holiday at the weekend.
 
G

Guest

I refer you to the following link. Although you do not have the type of van indentified you obviously have a similar problem. There has been a lot of discussion about this and a possible legal case may be envisaged, however whether that would apply to you I cannot say.

What I would suggest is that you get the 'fix' recommended done to your windows asap. That will allow you to at least use the van until you decide what further action is required.

Best of luck with it.

http://www.polyplastic-pass.nl./english/faq.php
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hi Scotch Lad - thanks for that link. This is most interesting and I am surprised that it has not had much publicity (unless I've missed it?). I have a 1999 Abbey which has suffered delamination of all three front windows. The centre one was replaced by the dealer foc but the two outer ones only had minor delaminations occurring so I securred those areas with 6BA nuts and bolts painted black - they do not notice unless the window is examined closely, I have had no interstitial condensation. I am awaiting a reply from the Caravan Club on the subject and will keep the forum informed. The problem is quite serious and could result in a traffic accident if the outer pane became detached at speed.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hello Angie,

The Sale of goods Act only has any real teeth up to a practical maximum of six years and that depends on a lot of other factors as well, so your options are limited.

Aassuming that your windows were manufactured by Polyplastic, and that they have held up their hands to a problem on similar products, you may be able to get some discount on the cost of replacement windows from either Polyplastic or possibly Lunar who may have an other similar claims with PP.

I suggest you write to Lunar and Polyplastic to register the problem with them and to see what if anything they have to say about it.

Hi John and the rest

If any other reader has suffered similar out or guarantee period problems then contact your relevant manufactures in a similar vein.

I'm not quite sure why you are waiting for a reply from the CC. They do not make caravans or windows.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hello John L - I've contacted the CC to enquire as to whether they are aware of the problem which could have serious repercussions for many of their members.

Your final comment I will ignore!
 
G

Guest

I would just like to make certain clarifications of my understanding of the situation.

The link I quoted concerned the Dutch manufacture of acrylic windows using polyplastic material. I quoted this as it seemed to be pertinent to Angie's problem but was not making, or suggesting any connection on a commercial basis as she has a UK made van. Whether her particular windows were made here, or in Europe can only be determined from looking at the markings on the windows. There is indeed a UK manufacturer also making windows of polyplastic material, but they have not made any public announcements as far as I know. In addition, the caravan/motorhome manufacturer mentioned in the Dutch press release is as far as I am aware, the only one to have acknowledged any problem, so the full deliniation of the problem has still to be determined. It should also be noted that there have been issues with the panes of certain windows being placed too close together and hitting each other in movement and marking, but that is again a different issue to the one of panes coming apart.

What I am also trying to make clear is that polyplastic is a chemical material licensed to Companies for use in various processes, windows being just one. There is no question that polyplastic itself is at fault, merely the bonding process of sticking the 2 panes together. Whether that is a local issue to the Dutch Company, or is more widespread, is at this time not clear. So although everyone uses the name 'polyplastic' in connection with the problem, that is being slightly disingenous.

There have been various 'stories' concerning the actual number of affected vans with delaminating windows. These range from a few to many thousands, but no accurate information has been published.

Even within the boundaries of this Forum there have been 'complaints' of faults with plastic windows. These have taken many forms and this delamination issue is but one.

I am sure this 'saga' will continue and hopefully at some stage a clearer picture will emerge.
 
Nov 12, 2008
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Hi.............The September newsletter is now available at www.caravanandmotorhomewindowproblems.co.uk

435 owners have now signed up....this month there is advice on what to do if you are offered a repair and a template letter to forward to your supplier......over the coming months there will be features on all window faults and responses from Dealers and manufactures..........the more information we can gather the quicker we can get these problems sorted out...........thankyou for all your support..........
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Further to my message of the 10 Sept I have now received a reply from the Technical Dept of the Caravan Club as follows--

The Caravan Club is aware of the safety recall regarding Polyplastic windows on B
 
G

Guest

The reply from the CC is interesting in that they have not been 'swamped' by owners with problem windows. That either means that nobody has bothered to contact them, apart from John, or the problem is not widespread here in the UK. I am also not so sure it is widespread in Europe as the Press over there do not appear to making a big 'song and dance' either.

However, just because a manufacturer recalls every product made between certain dates, does not imply every one is faulty. That can only be determined by checking and it is common practice to recall everyone of a suspect batch. Also it is not necessarly the case that even if a fault is found, a full replacement will be given. As mentioned the time between manufacture and fault identification will have some bearing.

I offer the example of Sevel and their X250 chassis which is used for 80% of all motorhomes. This suffered in a significant number of cases from severe juddering in reverse on models sold under the Fiat and Peugeot badges. The problem was intially rejected by Fiat but they then acknowledged, that there could be problems. They have recalled every motorhome with that particular engine size for checking and offered 2 solutions. Unfortunately, the first and Fiat preferred solution involves stronger engine mounts which some owners feel is not the correct answer, a changed reverse gear being the correct one. Ironically this latter course is being adopted by Peugeot, much to the chagrin of Fiat owners. So even suppliers of identical products may not follow the same path of restitution.

So the point I am trying to make is that proving there is a major fault issue is one matter, getting a satisfactory solution is another.

As far as John's original window problem, at the end of the day he has a van that he cannot sell in its current condition, and really would be unhappy to use. Therefore he really needs to get replacement windows fitted as soon as possible and then try to get some compensation from the manufacturer subsequently. Some may argue that by doing so he is weakening his case, but if he wishes to use his van at all, what choice does he have?
 
Jun 20, 2005
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John

Andrew has been battling this issue for a long time and been attacking the correct parties I believe.

The help offered to you by John L, our Guru on these matters, was cogently explained trying to give you some chance of a recovery.

The CC will not be able to offer you any recompence so I have to say John L's last comment was well founded!

Cheers

Dustydog
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Hi Dustydog - my reason for contacting the Caravan Club was that I feel that they should do more to draw members' attention to an obviously wide spread problem that poses a potential road accident risk. I did not expect recompense from them! - John
 
Feb 5, 2009
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To me the CC should have a say as they as they have a big number of members whose caravans are affected well done to John who has bought this matter to the attention of the CC
 
G

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No disrespect to anyone but nowhere have I seen any actual numbers mentioned. There has been a lot of 'chat' but there has also been a lot of 'chat' about window problems in general, which may not be connected to this issue.

There is also the issue that at least 2 separate window manufacturing Companies products have been mentioned, although only 1 has so far acknowledged any possible problem, and again only 1 caravan/motorhome manufacturer has acknowledged a possible problem. Even here the long period of time that was mentioned for recall for checking does not suggest that over this whole period, faults had occurred. In any possible safety issue recalls will exceed any potential fault period. That does not mean to say every product is a failure.

I suspect the CC and any other Organisation is waiting to see what further developments, if any, occur before making any comment.

Yes, if you own a van/motorhome where this problem occurs, then naturally you are concerned, and in many cases a replacement has been offered without quibble, but let us not assume that an 'epidemic' is out there.
 
Nov 12, 2008
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No disrespect to anyone but nowhere have I seen any actual numbers mentioned. There has been a lot of 'chat' but there has also been a lot of 'chat' about window problems in general, which may not be connected to this issue.

There is also the issue that at least 2 separate window manufacturing Companies products have been mentioned, although only 1 has so far acknowledged any possible problem, and again only 1 caravan/motorhome manufacturer has acknowledged a possible problem. Even here the long period of time that was mentioned for recall for checking does not suggest that over this whole period, faults had occurred. In any possible safety issue recalls will exceed any potential fault period. That does not mean to say every product is a failure.

I suspect the CC and any other Organisation is waiting to see what further developments, if any, occur before making any comment.

Yes, if you own a van/motorhome where this problem occurs, then naturally you are concerned, and in many cases a replacement has been offered without quibble, but let us not assume that an 'epidemic' is out there.
There is now absolutely no doubt that this delamination problem is widespread...originally notified by Burstner, who have acknowledged that at least 60,000 owners are effected across Europe.....since Aug 2009 I have had 686 owners contact me via our website www.caravanandmotorhomewindowproblem.co.uk

British makes are certainly experiencing delamination....

The September and November newsletter is available to anyone who is experiencing problems.....they contain statistics, manufacturers responses and advice....the editor of Practical Caravan is also aware and has advised that a letter will appear in a future issue.......for those interested please log on to our site.............
 
Nov 12, 2008
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There is now absolutely no doubt that this delamination problem is widespread...originally notified by Burstner, who have acknowledged that at least 60,000 owners are effected across Europe.....since Aug 2009 I have had 686 owners contact me via our website www.caravanandmotorhomewindowproblem.co.uk

British makes are certainly experiencing delamination....

The September and November newsletter is available to anyone who is experiencing problems.....they contain statistics, manufacturers responses and advice....the editor of Practical Caravan is also aware and has advised that a letter will appear in a future issue.......for those interested please log on to our site.............
 
G

Guest

I do wish people would not 'glorify' statistics. I very much doubt Burstner have confirmed 60000 failed caravans/motorhomes. What they have done is asked every unit manufactured within a certain time period to be checked IN CASE there is a problem. You will probably find the vast majority are indeed confirmed as ok. My van has windows from the self same Company that is being slated, and they are all absolutely fine, and have been for the last 3 years since purchase.

If 686 owners have indicated they have a problem with windows, albeit no detail is given, then that is a concern for them, however, compared with the total number of caravans and motorhomes currently in the UK market that is dare I say it, a drop in the bucket. Comparing that with for example, cracked panels on the front and rear of caravans and I am sure you could generate similar numbers.

To anyone who has a problem with their caravan/ motorhome I am sympathetic, but I object to 'crusades'. The solution to any of these problems is within each owner's grasp. However, trying to get an after sales recompensation is always fraught with difficulties and sometime you have to accept that if you wish to move on, you pay the cost. In terms of the total price of the caravan/motorhome, it is not excessive, and of course it is possible it can be done under insurance.
 
Nov 12, 2008
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Thankyou for your reply and you have every right to your opinion......The difficulty for most owners is the total disregard that the trade has to this manufacturing fault....having read through the many letters that we have received, owners have become very frustrated, they cannot understand why after only acouple of years use their windows are falling apart.......you would not expect this in a house or car, so why in a caravan or motorhome.

I am now up to 688 owners (2 more today) and I note other reports elsewhere in this forum.......As you have said before evidence is required and at this rate it will not belong before their is enough...I am not sure if you have received the newsletters.....it mght be worth alook at the evidence so far.....thankyou once again for your comments
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Andrew I have no doubt that there is serious problem with some of polyplastics products a fact that PP have acknowledged, and I do hope that you can get some additional help to replace them. 686 cases her in the UK is 686 too many.

Now I know that you will have spent a long time and a lot of effort to dig out figures to try and give extra credence to your claim, but without wishing to belittle those who have suffered these problems, I get a distinct feeling that you are massaging the figures to make them far more sensational than it probably is.

I have spent some time looking for figures and the worst case scenario I could find was 18,000 units but that was the batch size and there was no certainty that all of them would have the fault, so please tell me where you get the figure of "60,000 affected" units this is a very neat figure and I find it hard to believe that such a precise figure have failed.

When I find people who may have a genuine complaint, but who then who try to blow it up out of all proportion in the hope of getting widespread public approval then I fear that their credibility suffers and it damages your chances of getting justice.
 
Nov 12, 2008
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Hi John........thankyou for your comments.....the 60,000 units is from an article published by the german magazine motor-talk.de . They actually published a total of 80,000 units.

One of the difficulties when I started to confront he dealers and manufacturers was that they were picking off individual owners....An owner on their own stands little chance against the likes of Burstner and Polyplastic.....The only way to make any progress was to set up a website and find out what other owners were experiencing.......We now know that this manufacturing fault and a number of others is widespread....originally it was thought that German vans were the only one affected.....since starting the site British vans have been found to have the same fault notably Lunar and Abbey....

It is very likely that the original 60,000 units affected will grow.......

As previous readers to this forum have pointed out, quite rightly......where is the evidence?

If the 689 (one more today) owners are to go by so far, there is plenty of evidence.....however to be sure we will be continuing to gather as much a possible, before we go for more publicity......

If the dealers and manufacturers were to own up to their responsibilities in the first instance, then there would be no need for all of this......the newsletters are away of informing everyone of their rights and hopefully will have the effect of bringing all the owners together.....at the moment most owners feel helpless......facing big bills for replacement and huge difficulties re selling their units......thie really can't be right.......only time will tell if we are successful.......thankyou once again for your comments
 
G

Guest

Maybe I am being pedantic, or some may say, just being picky, but like John I am sceptical of the way this is being managed.

Looking at Burstner's own production figures, if indeed there are 60000 failed units out there then that accounts for about 4-5 years total production, so again I suspect what has happened is a general recall with expectations of a majority of 'zilch problem'. I do not know the total production of caravans and motorhomes in Europe over the last decade but I believe that some 60-70000 units are made each year. The majority have windows made of polyplastic material and supplied by probably one or either main Company.

If Burstner has such a serious problem then you would expect the owners to be up in arms about it. So I checked the UK owners Club, the Dutch owners Club and even the Spanish, although my understanding of that language is limited. What did I find? Not a single mention of this problem on any of their websites. Now, maybe they are keeping it all secret as they are ashamed of admitting to a problem, I do not know, but it certainly seems curious. There are also reports from owners of other caravan/motorhome manufacturers but again as these seem to be widespread, does that imply failure in every one? If Andrew wishes to be taken seriously, he needs to start putting some facts in his messages such as the total number of failed units by make and model, and of course year. It would also be important to know the location of the windows as I suspect the majority are the front ones, where more often than not, the window(s) is lying at an angle and the vibration is more severe. As even Burstner have asked for recall back to about 1999, then the spread could be illuminating.

I also wish that people would stop referring to Polyplastic as a problem, as they may indeed be faced with legal action by the owners of that product for misrepresentation. Polyplastic is a plastic material used to make the window panes. No one has to my knowledged stated that their window panes have failed, merely that the bonding holding the panes together has failed. That is a totally different issue. The problem lies with the glue, or whatever it is that holds them together, not the plastic. Yes, there is a Dutch Company licensed to use polyplastic material in their products and they do use the polyplastic name in their own name. However, they are not the same Company as the manufacturer of Polyplastic materials. If some one has a complaint against their supplier of windows they are fully entitled to take what action they feel appropriate against that Company alone, but I would caution aganst implying any issue with Polyplastic itself.

There is also a UK Company called M....d who are also licensed to use polyplastic material in their products. If you have windows from them, and they are failing, then taking action against the Dutch Company is a waste of time. I have not seen any communication from the UK Company stating that there is, or ever has been any problem with their products. That does not mean to say they has never been one, but again if it is delaminating, then it is the glue process that is failing. When parts are supplied by 3rd Party Companies it gets difficult to actually find out who is liable, particularly if a Warranty has expired. The nearest analogy I can think of, is if you buy a new car and the tyres fail, who is at fault?

If your unit is still under warranty then I suspect there is little problem in getting it fixed. If it is old, and by that I mean in excess of 5 years, and now you have a problem, then I suspect getting anyone to accept liability is going to be much harder.

I have no idea what plan of action Andrew is considering but attempting legal action of this nature is fraught as you have to pay the legal costs, and if you lose, all the other costs as well. Plus, if you are aiming at more than 1 Company, then you have to initiate action against each one separately. The lawyers will love you. I have a sneaky suspicion that most owners without Warranties, could be cheaper in biting the bullet and getting new windows themselves..

I make no claim aganst any moral issue and as mentioned before, I am sympathetic to anyone that is faced with a problem they neither expected nor find economic.

Sorry, as mentioned I accept I am being picky, but I feel that caution should be the watchword until far far more facts are available.
 
Nov 12, 2008
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Thankyou once again for your comments..I could take issue with a number of your comments and have explained many times, my position and that of the many owners who unfortunately are being left to pick up the tab for this manufacturing fault....your last paragraph says it all......I will keep eveyone informed through the monthly newsletters.....thankyou once again for taking he time to explain your views.
 
Nov 12, 2008
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Thankyou once again for your comments..I could take issue with a number of your comments and have explained many times, my position and that of the many owners who unfortunately are being left to pick up the tab for this manufacturing fault....your last paragraph says it all......I will keep eveyone informed through the monthly newsletters.....thankyou once again for taking he time to explain your views.
For John.............I think if anything I was understating the problem.........from the editorial...German Magazine Motor-talk.de

rough translation.........

Recall for caravan and travel mobile of B
 
Nov 12, 2008
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For John.............I think if anything I was understating the problem.........from the editorial...German Magazine Motor-talk.de

rough translation.........

Recall for caravan and travel mobile of B
 

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"One of the most popular, but simple fifties dresses, is the petticoat. This was designed to be flattering to a lady's shape and also, to enhance the dress she was wearing over it. Petticoats made of silk and woollen materials were initially introduced for women to wear under the main dress, as they provided warmth and would enhance women's busts. The classic petticoat then became shorter and lacy petticoats became the fashion, as they delicately accentuated the dresses that were worn over them, such as the Ophelia dress.
Vintage style dresses UK are available in a wide variety of sizes from vintage clothing shops, textile fairs, auctions, flea markets, estate sales, antique markets, garage sales and collectable fairs. However, there is always the risk with buying genuine vintage clothing, that the sizes may not match current clothing sizes. But there are a number of special boutiques online, who specialise in designing and creating vintage clothing to order. They can take your specific measurements and produce an outfit that will be tailor made and fit you perfectly"
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