All electric tow cars , again!

[Dustydog]

Here’s more food for thought :woohoo:
https://www.technocracy.news/shock-electric-vehicles-emit-more-co2-than-diesel-cars/?fbclid=IwAR2WwyucYmnB7bMZ3x5njkJ2j8sU5UkaPXG3b90EOtEoHIM-noM2P0TBZ60

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thank you Dusty,

I do agree that there are emission related to the use of EV's , but at their point of use they produce zero motive power emissions which is the perspective the EU regulators are using for the air quality initiatives in urban area's. It is related to the initiatives on Climate Change, but its not the same measurement criteria.

Its good to see alternative perspectives on the subject, but on this occasion I find the source you have used to be covertly misleading.

You have to read the wording carefully to spot the subtexts. The article may contain facts but it is also highly economic with the truth.

I have no doubt that German scientists have conducted a study, and that data in the study shows the CO2 emissions associated with the production and running of a Tesla car can produce up to 180gm/km of CO2.

I have no doubt that an equivalent Mercedes car will produce less than 180gm/km CO2 when driven.

The quoted data does suggest that's the case. - But is this what the Scientists Conclude?

The fact is the article is not about the conclusions of the study, its about the study taking place and that some of the data has been cherry picked to give a false impression to discredit Tesla and other EV's. This shouldn't be too surprising when you look at the other conspiratorial material the web site is pushing.

Immediately I note the article does not state that the CO2 figure for the Mercedes includes the emissions associated with the surveying, extraction, refining, and distribution of the cars fuel, which if it were a fair comparison It should.

Also the article it does not make clear where the Electricity is generated, and that is important becasue Germany for example is in the processes of decommissioning all its nuclear power, and it will be more reliant on coal and gas fired generation. Renewable's presently are a much smaller proportion that for many other countries including the UK. consequently Germany's generation of CO2per MW is greater than many of its neighbours and would bias the scientists study data.

The article does not say German scientists "conclude" that Tesla produces more CO2 than an equivalent Mercedes. (additional comment) No true Scientist would concur with the authors suggestion when the evidence is from two different data sets which are not matched.

This is typical journalistic licence where part of a data set is used to prop up a tenuous position. It very much like the headlines like "UK to freeze in Arctic Blast" when the met office suggests that the Highlands of Scotland may see an Northerly wind from the Arctic with temperatures falling to below zero. - Not inaccurate, as the Highlands are part of the UK, but entirely misleading because most of the country will be above freezing.

 

[Raywood]

The article tends to confirm that using the German mix of power supply to their grid that electric vehicles are not the answer now. They may be cleaner in cities but are producing more problems elsewhere. In essence the report suggests the pollution is being moved to the generating sites rather than cities.
I assume the Germans are gradually changing the power generation to more eco friendly mixes and that in the long term things will change in favour of electric power.
Our generation mix will be different so the figures may not apply here and it needs an other report for us to clear that point up.
The report refers to only one make and that is for a large and powerful car. To get the full picture it needs to look at a far greater range of makes and models.
The report suggests that all may not be what we are told but it is by no means conclusive.

 

[otherclive]

The article tends to confirm that using the German mix of power supply to their grid that electric vehicles are not the answer now. They may be cleaner in cities but are producing more problems elsewhere. In essence the report suggests the pollution is being moved to the generating sites rather than cities.
I assume the Germans are gradually changing the power generation to more eco friendly mixes and that in the long term things will change in favour of electric power.
Our generation mix will be different so the figures may not apply here and it needs an other report for us to clear that point up.
The report refers to only one make and that is for a large and powerful car. To get the full picture it needs to look at a far greater range of makes and models.
The report suggests that all may not be what we are told but it is by no means conclusive.

Germany has gone backwards with its power generation mix. After Fukushima nuclear plants were shut down and are to be decommissioned. Increased reliance now on coal which tends to be the dirtier variety from large opencast sites in the east. We drove from Krakow to Dortmund via Dresden and Saxony. The number of coal power stations in Poland and open mines in Germany beggared belief.

 

[Dustydog]

The article tends to confirm that using the German mix of power supply to their grid that electric vehicles are not the answer now. They may be cleaner in cities but are producing more problems elsewhere. In essence the report suggests the pollution is being moved to the generating sites rather than cities.
I assume the Germans are gradually changing the power generation to more eco friendly mixes and that in the long term things will change in favour of electric power.
Our generation mix will be different so the figures may not apply here and it needs an other report for us to clear that point up.
The report refers to only one make and that is for a large and powerful car. To get the full picture it needs to look at a far greater range of makes and models.
The report suggests that all may not be what we are told but it is by no means conclusive.

Germany has gone backwards with its power generation mix. After Fukushima nuclear plants were shut down and are to be decommissioned. Increased reliance now on coal which tends to be the dirtier variety from large opencast sites in the east. We drove from Krakow to Dortmund via Dresden and Saxony. The number of coal power stations in Poland and open mines in Germany beggared belief.

And we import both gas and electricity from France Germany and Russia.

 

[ProfJohnL]

...And we import both gas and electricity from France Germany and Russia.

Hello Dusty,

I cant argue the details of the CO2 production between countries, becasue I do not have the figures for other countries.

But I do take exception to the document you suggested, which is not comparing apples to apples. That's why it is a poor piece of evidence and thus cannot be trusted.

 

[otherclive]

The article tends to confirm that using the German mix of power supply to their grid that electric vehicles are not the answer now. They may be cleaner in cities but are producing more problems elsewhere. In essence the report suggests the pollution is being moved to the generating sites rather than cities.
I assume the Germans are gradually changing the power generation to more eco friendly mixes and that in the long term things will change in favour of electric power.
Our generation mix will be different so the figures may not apply here and it needs an other report for us to clear that point up.
The report refers to only one make and that is for a large and powerful car. To get the full picture it needs to look at a far greater range of makes and models.
The report suggests that all may not be what we are told but it is by no means conclusive.

Germany has gone backwards with its power generation mix. After Fukushima nuclear plants were shut down and are to be decommissioned. Increased reliance now on coal which tends to be the dirtier variety from large opencast sites in the east. We drove from Krakow to Dortmund via Dresden and Saxony. The number of coal power stations in Poland and open mines in Germany beggared belief.

And we import both gas and electricity from France Germany and Russia.

Most imported gas to UK comes from Norway Belgium and Netherlands. It was estimated after the Salisbury nerve agent attack that only 1% comes from Russia. Electricity from France ostensibly generated from nuclear plant. Very little UK energy is imported from Germany distribution cost being a major factor along with Germanys own demands and energy mix.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-43421431

 

[Dustydog]

...And we import both gas and electricity from France Germany and Russia.

Hello Dusty,

I cant argue the details of the CO2 production between countries, becasue I do not have the figures for other countries.

But I do take exception to the document you suggested, which is not comparing apples to apples. That's why it is a poor piece of evidence and thus cannot be trusted.

Hi Prof,
I never said I supported the German journalists article. I mentioned it purely as another view. As we both know ,you cannot take for granted articles published on the internet are accurate.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The entire issue of private transport, and the traditional freedoms to travel when and where we like are slowly being erroded by Government and local authorities. They are using a variety of tricks( sorry legislation) to limit access to main roads, and central urban areas, basically by chargeing or taxing, and in some instances banning private travel.

Consequently the entire transportation structure is undergoing change, and its going to be a period of uncertatnty about what we may be able to drive. It certainly isnt cut and dried that the future will be electric, though as things stand at the moment EV's seem to be favourite, and the infrastructure is gearing up for it.

It isn't a bed of roses from here on, there will be stumbling blocks, and there is a danger that developments we produce now may have unforseen consequences in the future. I do hope we have learned the lessons of the past, and we now do more and better research into minimising or even eliminating long term impacts of technological changes.

EV technology is developing at an incredible rate, Other alternatives are also being developed but are taking somewhat longer. Some technologies will fall by the wayside, either because they will be before their time or are simply not practical. And we may yet see something entirely new.

It is important to recognise the successes and failures of the past,we can learn a lot from them, but just becasue something may have worked well prviously, it may not be approporiate in the future, due to changes in both technology, and legislation or even social acceptance.

I'm comming to the conclusion there are only two absolute certanties, change and death.

 

[RayS]

you forgot one Prof - taxation

 

[ProfJohnL]

you forgot one Prof - taxation

Oh no I didn't, I deliberatly left it it out as its not a naturally occuring feature - its man made!

 

[Raywood]

you forgot one Prof - taxation

Oh no I didn't, I deliberatly left it it out as its not a naturally occuring feature - its man made!

I am afraid it is still inevitable and if the numbers of electric cars increases substantially then they will have to be taxed to protect the tax revenue.

 

[otherclive]

Not necessarily a tow car issue but I have just read an article about the progress made by China in electric public transport. Shenzhen has 16000 electric buses and 12000 electric taxis. Recently to a great accolade Washington DC announced the introduction of 14 electric buses. Other Chinese cities are rapidly following suit. So it may not be long before we see Chinese buses on our streets along with the “new” black cab which is owned by a Chinese company Geely who own a rapidly electrifying Volvo too. Oh for a few more charging stations

 

[ProfJohnL]

...... Oh for a few more charging stations

It would seem that the charging infrastructure in the UK is in considerable disarray. There are several separate companies who are installing chargers around the country, but unfortunately their chargers and or payment systems are not all compatible with each other.

Unlike with Fossil fuel stations where you can pay by ordinary credit/debit cards, or even cash!!! most of the chargers require you to have an account with the provider. This is a ridiculous situation and one that requires the Government to force the industry to harmonise.

 

[Dustydog]

I wouldn’t rely on the government
There is an attraction for SWMBO to the Kia Nero all electric. 260 miles a charge. Her return journey to the Midlands is 180 with a partial charge at MIL.
I understand a full recharge is 10 hours or so but a bit quicker on a three phase supply.
I’ve no idea how much a garage will charge for a charge (sic). But stuck for hours on a motorway service turns me off. Maybe the E Cars have developed quicker than the basic charger Strange that

 

[otherclive]

I wouldn’t rely on the government
There is an attraction for SWMBO to the Kia Nero all electric. 260 miles a charge. Her return journey to the Midlands is 180 with a partial charge at MIL.
I understand a full recharge is 10 hours or so but a bit quicker on a three phase supply.
I’ve no idea how much a garage will charge for a charge (sic). But stuck for hours on a motorway service turns me off. Maybe the E Cars have developed quicker than the basic charger Strange that

Totally agree. How would she fare on a cold winters day when the M way closes and the car is low on charge? Even if your in that situation with a fossil fuelled vehicle the recovery can generally provide some fuel. But generators I doubt.

British Gas have 12000 vehicle fleet but only 35 full electric. It’s objective was 10% of its fleet by 2015 but cites two prime reasons for the delay. One is lack of charging facilities such that schedules can be maintained. The second is because makers are holding back due to the changes in EU rules that require lower average manufacturers emissions in 2020. The makers are believed to be holding back the supply this year to reduce their overall level next year. Not really what the rules intended to achieve. Also BG report that the lifetime cost of electric vans on their usage profile is still higher than for petrol or diesel.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I know there is still a very valid debate to had about alternatives to EV's, but EV's do head the march and seem to be the approach favoured by Government so realistically there ought to be a more coordinated and unified approach to the their charging needs across the UK.

Some areas are better served than others, but for EV owners needing to make longer UK journeys, whilst it is possible, it does require a lot more preparation, and luck to route via the charging network that you have access to.

In addition there are other situations that presently make EV long distance travel more uncertain.
All the charging points at a station might be busy - adding to the time needed to recharge.
Inconsiderate drivers parking in an EV charging space when they are either not charging or don't even have an EV. or even having finished charging but not returned to the vehicle.
The charger may be broken preventing it from being used.
The charger may fail to recognise the users access card or details.

In some places the distance to the next charging point could be further than the remaining charge left in a vehicle.

Range anxiety is still one of the biggest concerns of drivers who might be considering going for an EV.

 

[Raywood]

The Tesla has a computer system that can tell you where the charging points are and what is available which is at least a partial answer to the range question.
The problems at the moment seem to me the range of even the best is given as up to about 300 miles and if you can add a trailer this drops to a useless figure so precludes them at the moment. You then get the problem that all the charging points I have seen have room for only a car so trailers would have to be unhitched and lastly the time needed at the charging point which is far longer than for petrol or diesel. I understand a motorway services can take about 270 cars an hour from about a dozen pumps but electric charging taking far longer would need more like 150 so the cost of setting this up and the space needed is a major problem. Charging times may improve but they will never match fossil fuels
The point about leaving the car on the charge point is also relevant. In Glasgow this has arisen as people drive in to work and leave the car there all day preventing others using it and time limits have been placed on many of these At our station they have added two charging points, but given that these are used by people going off in a train possibly all day the cars using the are blocking these to the point they are of little use.
To me hybrids are the better answer in the short term.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The Tesla has a computer system that can tell you where the charging points are and what is available which is at least a partial answer to the range question...

I haven't seen all the systems offered by the different companies, but the Tesla one seems the the best by far, its live updated so you can see well in advance if the charger is working and whether their occupied or not.

Unfortunately due to the diversity of different charging standards I believe most existing non Tesla EV's cannot use Tesla chargers. they're simply not compatible.

 

[otherclive]

The Tesla has a computer system that can tell you where the charging points are and what is available which is at least a partial answer to the range question...

I haven't seen all the systems offered by the different companies, but the Tesla one seems the the best by far, its live updated so you can see well in advance if the charger is working and whether their occupied or not.

Unfortunately due to the diversity of different charging standards I believe most existing non Tesla EV's cannot use Tesla chargers. they're simply not compatible.

Its Betamax and VCR all over again, but worse. I guess that the boots will be full of heavy charging adaptors!

And for starters here is one company doing just that.
https://www.fueltankshop.co.uk/ev-charging-cable-5m-32a-type-2-to-type-1/p5653

 

[Dustydog]

Note the high cost Jumping on the Band wagon

https://www.screwfix.com/p/masterplug-10a-type-2-female-socket-electric-vehicle-charging-cable-5m-green/267gv

 

[Buckman]

No government now or in the future can afford to install and infrastructure to support every family having an EV unless they taxed the motorist out of existent to subsidise the high costs. What about high rise buildings etc. EVs on a grand scale are a non starter and not a solution to a problem! Also their life span is very limited in comparison to a petrol or diesel engine as batteries will probably need to be replaced after several years.
Would you buy a 5 year old EV knowing that this may be an expensive cost in 2 - 3 years time? If you were a dealer would you be happy trading in a 5 year old EV knowing it will be very difficult to sell so you would offer silly money for the almost new looking EV leaving the seller very much out of pocket. The seller then loses a considerable amount of money and seriously considers whether buying another EV is an option.

 

[ProfJohnL]

No government now or in the future can afford to install and infrastructure to support every family having an EV unless they taxed the motorist out of existent to subsidise the high costs. What about high rise buildings etc. EVs on a grand scale are a non starter and not a solution to a problem! Also their life span is very limited in comparison to a petrol or diesel engine as batteries will probably need to be replaced after several years.
Would you buy a 5 year old EV knowing that this may be an expensive cost in 2 - 3 years time? If you were a dealer would you be happy trading in a 5 year old EV knowing it will be very difficult to sell so you would offer silly money for the almost new looking EV leaving the seller very much out of pocket. The seller then loses a considerable amount of money and seriously considers whether buying another EV is an option.

I never suggested the government should install the system, only that they should provide some guidance on the types of systems that should be used, and to make the planning system easier to navigate for charging points.

If we HAD to switch to EV's tomorrow, then yes there would be major power supply issues becasue all the necessary technology is not in place. But contrary to the opinion so frequently put out by the Anti EV brigade,the National grid we presently have, has the capacity to distribute the quantity of power needed move the nation but we need to be smart about how and when we charge our vehicles.

The National grid does not produce the same amount of power all day there are peaks and troughs in the demand, and it would be better to charge EV's during the low demand periods, and when peak demands arise, to use some of the battery capacity of all those cars and indeed household power banks to spread the load and make it more even through out the day.

The majority of cars only do less than 30miles a day, and that does not require a 100% charge, so with smart charging, EV's connected to chargers there would be a large potential charging capacity, which can also pay back to the grid.

With such a system in place there would I believe be no grid capacity issues. It would also means the generators can run at peak efficiency for much longer.

Yes there may be local issues around high rises, but its not insurmountable, the cars have to be parked somewhere so thats where the chargers would need to be situated.

I think your information about life span is incorrect. Mechanically EV's are far simpler have far fewer moving parts so there is every probability that their mechanical life will easily match if not exceed IC engines. All the information coming back from surveys so far suggests that is the case, but obviously whilst life span testing can be done by accelerating usage, some issues cannot be pre tested, but that applies to any new car EV or IC.

You also need to consider running costs other than fuel, consider the consumables that an IC engine needs changing periodically, engine oil and filters, spark plugs etc EV's do not incur such costs. Services are simpler thus quicker and cheaper.

The same applies to battery life spans. These are exceeding predicted models and there no reason to say that a battery will be useless after 5 or 7 years. Batteries do degrade and their ability to accept charge and pay it back does diminish, but even IC engines loose their peak performance as the get used more. When a battery does become unsuited to running an EV, there are now companies that re purpose them to provide localised power storage. If a battery has reach the end of its life, then it too is highly recyclable.

EV's won't suit everyone, and some people are anti EV regardless. but look at it another way IC's don't suit everyone and an EV can make a lot of sense as its efficiency in urban environments and where range anxiety is not a problem.

Like it or not a personal transport revolution is on its way, and our long history of freedoms to travel our roads in gas guzzlers unfettered from tolls is likely to change. We are seeing cities across the globe banning IC engines form parts of them. Or putting steep charges on polluting vehicles that want to enter them. Its only going to get bigger, and the point will come when people will have to consider what form of transport they can use not only for every day usage but also for holidays.

These decisions are being taken by the people we elect to parliament. If you want change it you have to speak to them and get them on your side.

 

[Buckman]

PJL your opening line in your post makes ti sound as if I were accusing you of something? That was not my intention. However regarding your first paragraph, if the government does not fund the infrastructure then who will be funding it? No distribution company could afford it whether collectively or not. Either way it will be the taxpayer and if a person did not have an EV they would not be very happy if taxed heavily to pay for the setting up of EV points. The government is already in a lot of debt so not a good idea to borrow even more as that will be a legacy our grand kids and their offspring will inherit.
If every one arrived home between 6-7pm, plugged in the EV, switched on the heating, turned on the hob or oven, had a shower, switched on the TV the drain on the network would be tremendous and lead to outages. This in turn will probably cause many electronic units to become troublesome. It has been suggested that EVs are charged at off peak however when would it be off peak as many people have their heating using the Economy mode which is set for early morning. By the way isn't lot of electric generated by fossil fuel anyway which then pollutes the environment anyway?
As mentioned by someone else, you are on the motorway in winter and there is a hold up i.e. an accident to keep warm you need the vehicle to generate heat, but if you do this to run the risk of the battery going flat so what do you do? EVs are a product from the dark ages and have been revived again as a fad which probably will not last long as there has to be a better alternative to the damage they cause.
No one seems to take into account the impact that EVs will have on mankind and that will be even worse than any environmental damage currently caused by petrol and other oil burning vehicles. This issue will be unemployment as millions of people will be put out of work if we all switched to EVs. The government will then have to support these millions of unemployed people however how can they support them when they are paying back the debt for the money borrowed to install the infrastructure for EVs? Generally when people go hungry and cannot get food for their family, they steal or start rioting and do we really want that in our lives. Catch 22?

 

[Raywood]

As it currently stands I think electric cars are probably best as a second car where a small runabout is needed doing only a low mileage. Cars that do long distances are simply impractical for most people due to the time recharging needs and hybrids are possibly the way forward for the foreseeable future.