All electric tow cars , again!

[Buckman]

As it currently stands I think electric cars are probably best as a second car where a small runabout is needed doing only a low mileage. Cars that do long distances are simply impractical for most people due to the time recharging needs and hybrids are possibly the way forward for the foreseeable future.

I agree with the above especially if being used in the city. However I think people will still be very wary of buying a second hand 5 year old electric vehicle. We bought our 1996 Corolla with 98k on the clock in 2012 so it was already 16 years old. It has passed every MOT since with no issues. Would an electric car be as cheap to run over a period of 23 years? BTW will MOTs still be required for electric cars as the emissions test would fall away making the MOT cheaper and probably not very profitable for a garage that is if garages will still exist as no need for brakes on an EV?

 

[otherclive]

PJL your opening line in your post makes ti sound as if I were accusing you of something? That was not my intention. However regarding your first paragraph, if the government does not fund the infrastructure then who will be funding it? No distribution company could afford it whether collectively or not. Either way it will be the taxpayer and if a person did not have an EV they would not be very happy if taxed heavily to pay for the setting up of EV points. The government is already in a lot of debt so not a good idea to borrow even more as that will be a legacy our grand kids and their offspring will inherit.
If every one arrived home between 6-7pm, plugged in the EV, switched on the heating, turned on the hob or oven, had a shower, switched on the TV the drain on the network would be tremendous and lead to outages. This in turn will probably cause many electronic units to become troublesome. It has been suggested that EVs are charged at off peak however when would it be off peak as many people have their heating using the Economy mode which is set for early morning. By the way isn't lot of electric generated by fossil fuel anyway which then pollutes the environment anyway?
As mentioned by someone else, you are on the motorway in winter and there is a hold up i.e. an accident to keep warm you need the vehicle to generate heat, but if you do this to run the risk of the battery going flat so what do you do? EVs are a product from the dark ages and have been revived again as a fad which probably will not last long as there has to be a better alternative to the damage they cause.
No one seems to take into account the impact that EVs will have on mankind and that will be even worse than any environmental damage currently caused by petrol and other oil burning vehicles. This issue will be unemployment as millions of people will be put out of work if we all switched to EVs. The government will then have to support these millions of unemployed people however how can they support them when they are paying back the debt for the money borrowed to install the infrastructure for EVs? Generally when people go hungry and cannot get food for their family, they steal or start rioting and do we really want that in our lives. Catch 22?

Who funds infrastructure now? its the consumer or taxpayer so EV infrastructure will be no different. I pay for services that i don't use, but that will always be the case otherwise those services would probably lapse for all. Even using coal fire power stations( )of which we now have very few on line except at very peak demand) are less polluting than individual IC engines. Yes they produce Co2 but not the ground level particulates or NOX. But overall the emission of CO2 would be less than having the same amount of power produced by IC engines. Theres power aplenty coming from the north sea and channel interconectors for gas and electricity with two more being built now. So power is not going to be a problem. Alloaction will need smarter distribution networks which may ration supplies at high peak times but open up as demand reduces. As Prof says there are exciting times ahead and it will happen.

 

[Buckman]

Why is it that people in favour of EVs do not think of those that will become unemployed and have no wish to discuss the negatives of EVs. Also not willing to discuss the cost of the infrastructure to support EVs in every home? Why should we pay for something that the government is trying to force onto us when many don't want to be forced. I always thought we had freedom of choice in this country?

 

[otherclive]

Why is it that people in favour of EVs do not think of those that will become unemployed and have no wish to discuss the negatives of EVs. Also not willing to discuss the cost of the infrastructure to support EVs in every home? Why should we pay for something that the government is trying to force onto us when many don't want to be forced. I always thought we had freedom of choice in this country?

Having been made redundant twice I do recognise that major changes in technology can lead to unemployment. But that’s been a fact of life for aeons and even in recent times we have seen shipbuilding, mining, automotive, steel industry, printing etc; even the armed forces have suffered major changes and redundancies, but here we are with record low unemployment. Electric vehicles and their infrastructure won’t make and support themseves will they. No one is forcing EVs on anyone. The markets and society are changing to meet new demands. We do have freedom of choice, if an EV doesn’t appeal stick with IC as they will be around for many years to come, or use alternative modes of transport. Personally I would only buy an EV for local transport despite some having decent range. Better option would be an Ampera or Outlander or I8

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Buckman,

I cannot agree with your assessment of the situation. But this is not the thread to take it further.

 

[Buckman]

Hello Buckman,

I cannot agree with your assessment of the situation. But this is not the thread to take it further.

Sorry I don't understand as this is a thread about EVs and is in the tow car category? Not sure if it is censored or in the wrong category?

 

[otherclive]

Hello Buckman,

I cannot agree with your assessment of the situation. But this is not the thread to take it further.

Sorry I don't understand as this is a thread about EVs and is in the tow car category? Not sure if it is censored or in the wrong category?

No it’s not censored and it’s in the correct category. I have only seen one EV with a towbar fitted. That was a couple of weeks ago on the Fosse near Moreton in Marsh. It was aTesla suv type not the nice GT sporting saloon. However my assumption was that it didn’t have a caravan at the CMHC site nearby and probably used its tow ball for a bike rack or a small trailer. Although I could be mistaken and he might have lived in Stow and owned an Eldiss Buccaneer

 

[Hutch]

Why is it that people in favour of EVs do not think of those that will become unemployed and have no wish to discuss the negatives of EVs. Also not willing to discuss the cost of the infrastructure to support EVs in every home? Why should we pay for something that the government is trying to force onto us when many don't want to be forced. I always thought we had freedom of choice in this country?

Before we get thrown back on the full thread, there is now way, that south America, almost all of Africa, and isolated small countries, will never get into Electric vechiles. .
I LOVE, my Sante Fe Towing my Coachman. .

 

[ProfJohnL]

Why is it that people in favour of EVs do not think of those that will become unemployed and have no wish to discuss the negatives of EVs. Also not willing to discuss the cost of the infrastructure to support EVs in every home? Why should we pay for something that the government is trying to force onto us when many don't want to be forced. I always thought we had freedom of choice in this country?

Hello Buckman,

We have been presenting discussion points about the subject you mention, But I don't happen to agree with your assessment, and you don't haven't been swayed by the points I have made. Neither of us can conclusively prove what is going to happen precisely, so I think we have present out points and now others can choose if they agree with any of them.

I do not casually disregard the problem of unemployment It is especially serious for those whom it affects, but the big difference is I seriously doubt the introduction of EV will lead to the scale of mass unemployment and the riots you suggest.

And I think its rather disingenuous to suggest that we have not looked at the pros and cons of both EV and IC's.
If you have particular concerns perhaps you should state them rather than just throwing a blanket of suspicion on them, But if you do provide a deeper insight into your concerns perhaps you should also look at the equivalent issues surrounding IC's

With regards to the cost of the infrastructure, I have given you the facts as they stand, The cost of implementation will fall on the suppliers, who in turn will recoup their costs through their customers. The government is NOT funding any major part of it.

As for being forced to accept EV's, Your not being forced. You still have the choice to purchase non EV's if you wish. But you will see the non EV options becoming progressively more costly, but you still have the choice

Things change, and realistically we are all living in a social structure, and that can only work if we agree to be bound by a number of regulations. There are plenty of other regulations that you happily accept, like driving on the left, and accepting speed limits, understanding that if you rob someone you are likely to be caught and prosecuted. We used to accept slavery, but no rational person would now agree to it now.

You had better get used to the idea that petrol and diesel engines will be phased out.

 

[Buckman]

No it’s not censored and it’s in the correct category. I have only seen one EV with a towbar fitted. That was a couple of weeks ago on the Fosse near Moreton in Marsh. It was aTesla suv type not the nice GT sporting saloon. However my assumption was that it didn’t have a caravan at the CMHC site nearby and probably used its tow ball for a bike rack or a small trailer. Although I could be mistaken and he might have lived in Stow and owned an Eldiss Buccaneer

Yes Stow is a very nice place. Quiet, safe and not too far from many facilities.

 

[Buckman]

Hello Buckman,
You had better get used to the idea that petrol and diesel engines will be phased out.

Seems it will not happen in our lifetime as EVs in their current form are not sustainable as they probably use just as much fossil fuel as a diesel or petrol vehicle during their lifetime. Electric powered vehicles are not the way forward and IMHO they are a step backwards. I am fairly confident that another clean power source that does not rely on fossil fuels will become available. However we will still be left with the issue of high unemployment.

 

[otherclive]

No it’s not censored and it’s in the correct category. I have only seen one EV with a towbar fitted. That was a couple of weeks ago on the Fosse near Moreton in Marsh. It was aTesla suv type not the nice GT sporting saloon. However my assumption was that it didn’t have a caravan at the CMHC site nearby and probably used its tow ball for a bike rack or a small trailer. Although I could be mistaken and he might have lived in Stow and owned an Eldiss Buccaneer

Yes Stow is a very nice place. Quiet, safe and not too far from many facilities.

And often a nightmare for through traffic on the Fosse travelling southwards.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Seems it will not happen in our lifetime as EVs in their current form are not sustainable as they probably use just as much fossil fuel as a diesel or petrol vehicle during their lifetime. Electric powered vehicles are not the way forward and IMHO they are a step backwards. I am fairly confident that another clean power source that does not rely on fossil fuels will become available. However we will still be left with the issue of high unemployment.

Well that depends on how long you will live. It is Government policy that by 2040 all new cars sold must be zero tail pipe emmision. The moving force behind this policy is the need to improve air quality, not specifically to demonise cars, but that is how the Government has chosen to start the process. The RAC Foundation calculate that UK cars drove 252 billion miles in 2017 compared to just 17 billion miles for HGVs so there is some sense in looking at the largest group first.

The policy only calls for zero emmision, does not specify cars have to be electric, so other technologies may have a chance, but it does seem most car manufacturers see EV as the most achievable at present.

You keep insisting but not explaining why you consider EVs to be a step backwards. It is a fact that some of the earliest cars were electric, but modern developments make any comparisons between their effectiveness as diverse as the comparison of the first IC engines to present day ones, it's called progress.

It is true that EVs may not be strictly zero emision if they use power generated by burning fossil fuels, but the amount and type of emisions is less harmful, and it's not discharged at ground level, which is where it impacts city air quality. But as more renewable power is generated, the quantity of emisions from generation also falls.

There are other non fosil fuel sources already, solar, wind, and wave, and these are growing and taking an increasing share of the generation of power produced in the UK. A short time ago at one point in a day 50% of our power was covered by renewables.

Whenever an entrenched technology is disrupted, there are almost always some job losses. As Otherclive has pointed out this has been an ongoing feature of life. The reduction in ic engine production will have employment consequences, but there has been a twenty year warning, and the changes are not going to happen over night so it should be a fairly orderly transition. I personally don't foresee the mass unemployment and food riots you predict. I'm not claiming it's going to be easy for those affected, redundancy never is.

In practice with such a long warning period, about 40% those affected will actually be due to retire. The companies will scale down recruitment so there will be fewer people employed in the affected sectors. Some jobs will remain as ic engines will still be needed for goods vehicles that are not part of the policy. And some jobs will change to service the production of EVs. These are all reasons why it's not going to be Armageddon.

 

[Buckman]

PJ we will never agree on EVs as I am convinced they are not the way forward at the moment and are a fad at the moment. Correct the cities will not be polluted by power stations as that is happening in the countryside along with the environmental impact of those hideous wind mills that blight out beautiful landscape and will never break even within our lifetime. Even solar panels have an extremely long lifetime before they reach a break even point.
As for 2040 that is an even bigger con being played on us by the government, but nothing new there anyway. There will still be many vehicles on the roads still using diesel and unleaded fuel as there will be no other affordable alternative.

 

[Raywood]

Have to agree the 2040 date is a cop out as by then things will have changed out of all recognition and we can have new laws which should respond to the position then.

 

[Grey13]

Old cars never die! They re-invent themselves. Don't be so sure diesel is over.

European vehicle manufacturers & suppliers have revolutionized diesel engines with innovations in diesel technology, such as:

New highly efficient engins
Ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel
An advanced emissions control system

Lighter, cleaner, and more technologically advanced, modern diesels are completely different from their predecessors.
Europe is leading the way on diesel modernisation with a target of attaining the highest performance standards with the lowest environmental impact.

Through relentless investment in diesel engine technology, European vehicle manufacturers and suppliers have revolutionised diesel engines with innovations in diesel technology including the ground-breaking exhaust emission control device, the catalytic converter, and ‘AdBlue®’, an effective chemical that helps to reduce harmful emissions.

https://dieselinformation.aecc.eu/the-anatomy-of-a-modern-diesel-engine/

 

[otherclive]

Old cars never die! They re-invent themselves. Don't be so sure diesel is over.

European vehicle manufacturers & suppliers have revolutionized diesel engines with innovations in diesel technology, such as:

New highly efficient engins
Ultra-low sulfur diesel fuel
An advanced emissions control system

Lighter, cleaner, and more technologically advanced, modern diesels are completely different from their predecessors.
Europe is leading the way on diesel modernisation with a target of attaining the highest performance standards with the lowest environmental impact.

Through relentless investment in diesel engine technology, European vehicle manufacturers and suppliers have revolutionised diesel engines with innovations in diesel technology including the ground-breaking exhaust emission control device, the catalytic converter, and ‘AdBlue®’, an effective chemical that helps to reduce harmful emissions.

]https://dieselinformation.aecc.eu/the-anatomy-of-a-modern-diesel-engine/

https://dieselinformation.aecc.eu/the-anatomy-of-a-modern-diesel-engine/[/quote
Not to mention the software that cheats the emission type approval tests.

 

[ProfJohnL]

A transport revolution has started witnessed by virtually all the manufacturers selling cars in the UK now turning to alternative power plants. The vast majority have decided to go down the electric route, whether its hybrids or all electric, its move that reflects the Government's pronouncement about zero tailpipe emissions for all new small vehicles being sold in 2040. I do doubt that Electricity is the final or only end game, but considering the manufacturers options both now and in the foreseeable future, it does seem that EV’s or hybrids are the favourite technology - at the moment.

The UK Government is not closing the door of Petrol and Diesel as the present proposals only directly affect small vehicles like domestic cars, so presently light goods HGV, and other more specialised forms of transport are not targeted and are likely to continue to use IC power plants, but the pressure will be on to continue to make them less polluting and more efficient.

The fact that IC engines will still be needed, and must be less polluting will mean that developments in the field may yet produce some significant improvements, but I seriously doubt that either petrol or diesel will ever achieve zero tailpipe emissions because of the chemical processes of burning these impure fuels under high pressure. The only way to create zero tail pipe emissions will be to collect the emissions, store or convert them into something else which is not considered to be an emission.

It is likely the equipment needed to capture all petrol or diesel IC emissions will not only be rather expensive, but impractically large to build into smaller vehicles, yet alone larger ones.

I would like to think the Governments thinking is not just about reducing emissions, but also include considerations about reducing dependency on fossil fuels which are becoming more expensive to find and produce. If we can shift to using renewables that would alleviate some of that dependency.

Another way to reduce emissions is to reduce the scale of polluting activities, so we may well see new legislation that curtails some of our freedoms to travel where and when we like. We are already seeing hints of this with Clean Air Zones where you will not be allowed to use a polluting type of vehicle at all or you will be charged (Fined?) for it.

It’s not just about using EV’s its a broader approach to reduce pollution.

 

[CustardAvenger]

Another way to reduce emissions is to reduce the scale of polluting activities, so we may well see new legislation that curtails some of our freedoms to travel where and when we like. We are already seeing hints of this with Clean Air Zones where you will not be allowed to use a polluting type of vehicle at all or you will be charged (Fined?) for it.

It’s not just about using EV’s its a broader approach to reduce pollution.

I am now unable to drive into central London's Ultra Low Emissions Zone in my Diesel (without paying) and I understand why - NOx is something which I had no idea about until recently... Hybridisation and Electrification are the next evolution of passenger vehicles and as the technology improves, vehicles capable of towing will appear on the market.

What as not been discussed, as far as I know, is what fuel duty will be levied against electricity used to power vehicles... https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-shopping/fuel-duty
Once ICE cars are in the minority the government will be losing c.£40 per tank (70L) from cars such as mine...

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello CA.
I'd agree that we have not been given heads up yet about how HMRC will cover the reducing tax income as EV's take hold, but I think we can be pretty certain that some how they will devise a tax collection scheme. The fcilities are of course there as far as road fund tax (Or what ever its called these days) is concerned, instead of zero rate they will apply some rating formula.

Where it is less clear is how the falling revenue from fuel duty may be recovered, but you can be sure the mandarins in teh civil service will have several plans in hand.

 

[Grey13]

IMO Scrap old cars - 10 years ago, buy diesel!
Today Scrap all cars buy electric
What's the next notch - wait and see.

what's it all about? MONEY money money, nothing else. Force innocent people to change and spend spend spend.

BTW went to me local Merc outlet, big place looking at a new vehicle.
I questioned the sales guy about diesel. He was a senior sales rep.

His reply was most of all new cars being sold are still diesel. In fact you pay a premium on petrol in some cases.

 

[otherclive]

IMO Scrap old cars - 10 years ago, buy diesel!
Today Scrap all cars buy electric
What's the next notch - wait and see.

what's it all about? MONEY money money, nothing else. Force innocent people to change and spend spend spend.

BTW went to me local Merc outlet, big place looking at a new vehicle.
I questioned the sales guy about diesel. He was a senior sales rep.

His reply was most of all new cars being sold are still diesel. In fact you pay a premium on petrol in some cases.

It just goes to show how ill informed the sales person was. I suspect that he was really trying to shift a diesel your way. The SMMT website gives loads of data on sales between brands and fuels. For example in May17, May 18 and May 19 petrol car sales have outsold diesel. And pretty well the same across all of the years 17 and 18 and 19 to date. Giving him the benefit of the doubt I suspect that he probably meant Mercedes sales. As MB, BMW and VAG cannot meet demand for petrol vehicles.

https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/

 

[ProfJohnL]

...

BTW went to me local Merc outlet, big place looking at a new vehicle.
I questioned the sales guy about diesel. He was a senior sales rep.

His reply was most of all new cars being sold are still diesel. In fact you pay a premium on petrol in some cases.

As otherclive suggests he may well have been just concerned with MB vehicles, and yes he is also probably still right diesel may still hold the biggest market share, but that share is reducing, and the difference is increasing sales of petrol and EV's inc hybrids.

Of course its all about Money. Car manufacturers want to sell cars, The Government piggy backs on that by leveying taxes, and people want cars so they will buy them until it hurts too much financially.

Who knows what the next "notch" will be. It quite possible that car ownership will become the next anti-social practice and we reduce our needs for cars or become more reliant on public transport.

 

[otherclive]

...

BTW went to me local Merc outlet, big place looking at a new vehicle.
I questioned the sales guy about diesel. He was a senior sales rep.

His reply was most of all new cars being sold are still diesel. In fact you pay a premium on petrol in some cases.

As otherclive suggests he may well have been just concerned with MB vehicles, and yes he is also probably still right diesel may still hold the biggest market share, but that share is reducing, and the difference is increasing sales of petrol and EV's inc hybrids.

Of course its all about Money. Car manufacturers want to sell cars, The Government piggy backs on that by leveying taxes, and people want cars so they will buy them until it hurts too much financially.

Who knows what the next "notch" will be. It quite possible that car ownership will become the next anti-social practice and we reduce our needs for cars or become more reliant on public transport.

Prof
If you follow the link you will see conclusive data from SMMT that clearly shows that diesel has significantly less market share than petrol for cars. The statistics go right back to 2009 and since 2017 the difference is quite revealing. I suspect that after Dieselgate in 2015 the market really began to change. Of course many petrol cars will be smaller engines vehicles but even in the recent Towcar tests we see a greater number of petrol vehicles.
The SMMT also shows the increase in hybrids/electric vehicles too.

 

[Raywood]

It is possibly correct that the makers cannot meet the demand for petrol engines at the moment. In 2015 they were geared up for the level of sales of diesels at that time and suddenly the market changed dramatically. It would take time for the makers and their suppliers to change their factories to produce extra petrol engines if they had set production at the 2015 level.