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Alternatives to hydrocarbon fuels Energy density per kg comparisons the problem not talked about.

Jul 21, 2021
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These figures are from Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

The fundamental problem is weight and volume of alternatives. Example Nissan leaf 40Kwh battery 303kg

Hydrogen.
6.8MJ per Kg
High-pressure tanks weigh much more than the hydrogen they can hold. The hydrogen may be around 5.7% of the total mass,[19] giving just 6.8 MJ per kg total mass for the LHV

assume 700 bar has cylinder 9800 PSI


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Diesel

45.6 MJ per Kg

Batteries. (lithium-ion battery)

0.875 MJ per kg

1kg of diesel has the same energy as 50kg of batteries or 8kg of hydrogen at high pressure.


Assuming 25% conversion rate for diesel IC engine under load.

1Kg diesel when used in IC engine is equivalent to:-

12Kg of batteries

2 to 3 kg of hydrogen. (Assumed 80% conversion rate H2 to electricity)
 
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Jul 21, 2021
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Carbon intensity web site.

Gives real time CO2 KWH maps, London and the South East are mainly powered from imported electricity.. Depends if you class nuclear as renewable!
 
Nov 11, 2009
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These figures are from Wikipedia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

The fundamental problem is weight and volume of alternatives. Example Nissan leaf 40Kwh battery 303kg

Hydrogen.
6.8MJ per Kg
High-pressure tanks weigh much more than the hydrogen they can hold. The hydrogen may be around 5.7% of the total mass,[19] giving just 6.8 MJ per kg total mass for the LHV

Diesel

45.6 MJ per Kg

Batteries. (lithium-ion battery)

0.875 MJ per kg
The fact that fossil fuels are energy dense is a large part of their success over the last century. It’s part of the conundrum over what the alternatives there are that will succeed fossil fuels.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Carbon intensity web site.

Gives real time CO2 KWH maps, London and the South East are mainly powered from imported electricity.. Depends if you class nuclear as renewable!
Nuclear is not renewable but over its lifetime is far lower CO2 emissions than power generated by fossil fuel coal oil or gas. Will France renew all of their nuclear stations many of which are becoming old.
 
Jul 21, 2021
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Nuclear is not renewable but over its lifetime is far lower CO2 emissions than power generated by fossil fuel coal oil or gas. Will France renew all of their nuclear stations many of which are becoming old.
when France converts to EV no more electricity to export! The CO2 kwh, will go through the roof for UK electricity.

don't forget many UK nuclear power stations will be closing down in next 20 years most won't be replaced!
 
Nov 11, 2009
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when France converts to EV no more electricity to export! The CO2 kwh, will go through the roof for UK electricity.

don't forget many UK nuclear power stations will be closing down in next 20 years most won't be replaced!
The recent agreement between HMG and EDFsees the remaining 7 AGR decommissioned by 2030 so that leaves Sizewell B as the only functioning nuclear plant. Hinckley C still being built and no agreement in sight for any other new nuclear plant. Better hope the sunshine’s and wind blows. We are okay in Wiltshire having just commissioned Europe’s largest battery banks 2 x 50 mw. Every little helps as they say.
 
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The recent agreement between HMG and EDG sees the remaining 7 AGR decommissioned by 2030 so that leaves Sizewell B as the only functioning nuclear plant. Hinckley C still being built and no agreement in sight for any other new nuclear plant. Better hope the sunshine’s and wind blows. We are okay in Wiltshire having just commissioned Europe’s largest battery banks 2 x 50 mw. Every little helps as they say.
One litre of diesel fuel (auto) has an energy content of approximately 38 MJ – which approximates to 10 kWh (using a ballpark figure) but the efficiency of conversion into kinetic energy is only about 30% - that is better than petrol which is typically 25% depending on the design.
 
Mar 14, 2005
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Peter.

I suspect I know what your agenda is. And again you have started a new thread with outlandish claims which distort the truth.

The subject of energy density is being talked about, and it is well understood that present day low emission systems cannot compete directly with the energy density of fossil fuels. Its not the secret you seem keen to claim it is.

You seem to be intent on making out that future transport matters based on anything other than fossil fuels have no hope of meeting the needs of travellers.

Its time for you to get real, and to accept that major changes to an established set of habits are very much likely to mean we are all going to have to change our habits.

The future of transport IS going to be different and we will have to interact with it differently. But just because its differnt it doesn't necessarily mean its going to be bad or unworkable.

The subject does need to be debated, and its very easy to make snapshot predictions about what might go wrong in 20 years time on the basis that nobodies does any preparation in the interim. But life isn't like that, and whilst you are claiming these matters are not being considered but the fact you are quoting various studies or reports clearly show they are being considered, and that means some preparation is taking place.

This doesn't mean the outcomes will not have some issues, but the human being has an uncanny way of finding some solutions, even if their not perfect.

Try looking for some positives?
 
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Jul 21, 2021
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Peter.

I suspect I know what your agenda is. And again you have started a new thread with outlandish claims which distort the truth.

The subject of energy density is being talked about, and it is well understood that present day low emission systems cannot compete directly with the energy density of fossil fuels. Its not the secret you seem keen to claim it is.

You seem to be intent on making out that future transport matters based on anything other than fossil fuels have no hope of meeting the needs of travellers.

Its time for you to get real, and to accept that major changes to an established set of habits are very much likely to mean we are all going to have to change our habits.

The future of transport IS going to be different and we will have to interact with it differently. But just because its differnt it doesn't necessarily mean its going to be bad or unworkable.

The subject does need to be debated, and its very easy to make snapshot predictions about what might go wrong in 20 years time on the basis that nobodies does any preparation in the interim. But life isn't like that, and whilst you are claiming these matters are not being considered but the fact you are quoting various studies or reports clearly show they are being considered, and that means some preparation is taking place.

This doesn't mean the outcomes will not have some issues, but the human being has an uncanny way of finding some solutions, even if their not perfect.

Try looking for some positives?
My next car will be electric, that's to replace the general runabout, but for towing need a Diesil.

There is no alternative if you are towing, nothing is going to suddenly improve with battery technology,
 
Nov 11, 2009
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My next car will be electric, that's to replace the general runabout, but for towing need a Diesil.

There is no alternative if you are towing, nothing is going to suddenly improve with battery technology,
But there’s been threads posted by a member who tows 1500 kg with an electric car and hasn’t found it a major problem. It’s different and he’s had to modify his approach but the change from fossil to renewables is going to require changes in so many areas, why should caravanning be unaffected? The member seems fully satisfied even at this early stage that his EV gives him excellent solo driving plus the ability to pursue his hobby.
 
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Jul 21, 2021
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But there’s been threads posted by a member who tows 1500 kg with an electric car and hasn’t found it a major problem. It’s different and he’s had to modify his approach but the change from fossil to renewables is going to require changes in so many areas, why should caravanning be unaffected? The member seems fully satisfied even at this early stage that his EV gives him excellent solo driving plus the ability to pursue his hobby.
In my job I have to do end to end analysis.

If / when all cars are electric, the government will charge per mile to recover the post revenue.

(Taxes on motoring raise around £40 billion a year for the exchequer (around 5% of government revenue), equivalent to about £750 per adult in the UK. Most of this comes from fuel duties, which in 2019–20 are expected to raise £28 billion in their own right plus an additional £5.7 billion from the VAT payable on the duties. Another £6.5 billion comes from vehicle excise duty (VED) and £0.2 billion from the London congestion charge.)

at the same time as our nuclear power stations close down no more IC cars will be sold, the same is occurring in france, France will stop exporting its electricity to us!

Motorway Service stations with 20 pumps will need 400 charging points to service the demand, think about it a second, where will cars with caravans be allowed to charge? Their will not be enough space avalible!

where is all the extra electricity going to come from at peak periods!
 
Nov 11, 2009
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I’m very surprised that HMG haven’t started to raise more revenue from cars. For too many years they have been giving zero Road Fund revenue to small cars with ICE to encourage lower emission. Yet those cars still use the roads. They’ve yet to grip the tiger by the tail and front up to an equitable form of charging for road usage. For petrol or diesel I’m a great fan of increasing fuel taxes and metering usage by modifying habits and less use of the right foot. Price is one of the biggest modifiers of habits.
 
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Jul 21, 2021
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I’m very surprised that HMG haven’t started to raise more revenue from cars. For too many years they have been giving zero Road Fund revenue to small cars with ICE to encourage lower emission. Yet those cars still use the roads. They’ve yet to grip the tiger by the tail and front up to an equitable form of charging for road usage. For petrol or diesel I’m a great fan of increasing fuel taxes and metering usage by modifying habits and less use of the right foot. Price is one of the biggest modifiers of habits.
That's the problem for EVs going forwards.

As IC Cars disappear EV Cars will have to pay more taxes to cover the loss in tax revenue, it's expected to be between 10- 25p a mile.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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I’m very surprised that HMG haven’t started to raise more revenue from cars. For too many years they have been giving zero Road Fund revenue to small cars with ICE to encourage lower emission. Yet those cars still use the roads. They’ve yet to grip the tiger by the tail and front up to an equitable form of charging for road usage. For petrol or diesel I’m a great fan of increasing fuel taxes and metering usage by modifying habits and less use of the right foot. Price is one of the biggest modifiers of habits.
The other fairer option is to base tax on mileage done by a vehicle, but not sure how they could achieve that?
 
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My son a new driver has a black box fitted to his car to reduce insurance costs, they cost £117 fitted.

they record in real time, location, speed, acceleration, braking, reports accidents if required, and trips are recorded...

guess what will happen!
 
Nov 11, 2009
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That's the problem for EVs going forwards.

As IC Cars disappear EV Cars will have to pay more taxes to cover the loss in tax revenue, it's expected to be between 10- 25p a mile.
Thats interesting where does that figure come from I would like to read the paper.
 
Jul 21, 2021
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Thats interesting where does that figure come from I would like to read the paper.
The average MPG for cars in the UK is 38.8 miles per gallon.

Fuel duty is currently levied at a flat rate of 57.95p per litre for both petrol and diesel, while VAT at 20% is then charged on both the product price and the duty. Hover over the chart to see exact values.

Average fuel price 1.35.

Now the maths. Tax on 1l fuel

Vat at 20% = 27p +58p flat rate see above = 85p a liter.

L to gallons = 4.54 so 85p a litre x 4.54 = £3.85 per gallon tax. That's 10p per mile..

Then their is road tax to add about another 6p mile (need to check)

Then as EV Cars need more inferstructure, wear out roads more quickly.
 
Jul 21, 2021
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But there’s been threads posted by a member who tows 1500 kg with an electric car and hasn’t found it a major problem. It’s different and he’s had to modify his approach but the change from fossil to renewables is going to require changes in so many areas, why should caravanning be unaffected? The member seems fully satisfied even at this early stage that his EV gives him excellent solo driving plus the ability to pursue his hobby.
I also tow an land rover on a trailer with generaly Generally 400 mile trip EV won't work for me!
 
Nov 11, 2009
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I also tow an land rover on a trailer with generaly Generally 400 mile trip EV won't work for me!
I don’t think that anyone has said the change to EV would work for everyone and in its various modes transport will have to adapt to a regime of cleaner emissions. Be that cars, trains, aircraft, trucks etc. change is going to happen. Some will view it as positive, some will be ambivalent and others will take a negative view. Clearly you are not a fan as of yet, but like it or not changes are happening with an accelerating pace.
 
Jul 21, 2021
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I don’t think that anyone has said the change to EV would work for everyone and in its various modes transport will have to adapt to a regime of cleaner emissions. Be that cars, trains, aircraft, trucks etc. change is going to happen. Some will view it as positive, some will be ambivalent and others will take a negative view. Clearly you are not a fan as of yet, but like it or not changes are happening with an accelerating pace.
The maths don't add up.

Cold winter overcast still day a EV will have an equivalence CO2 emissions of grated than a IC car.

We haven't got new nuclear power station being planned so more reliance on gas power stations, don't forget the gover.ent is pushing airsource heating, and France will stop exporting, power cuts will be the end result.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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The maths don't add up.

Cold winter overcast still day a EV will have an equivalence CO2 emissions of grated than a IC car.

We haven't got new nuclear power station being planned so more reliance on gas power stations, don't forget the gover.ent is pushing airsource heating, and France will stop exporting, power cuts will be the end result.
Thank you it all looks so terrible doesn't it, so I think I will go and have a nice French Bordeaux before climate change kills off the vines :wineglass: But at least the risk of another nuclear station accident is reducing.:eek: that must be good news for someone.
 
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Jun 20, 2005
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I give up!
I was told back in the late 80s to go for a diesel company car and save a fortune on tax and fuel costs.
Mr Blair came in and I well remember a trip to Sellafield or call it what you will to see the decommissioning process. We are non nuclear!
Our coal power stations are gone.
I just wish someone somewhere would give me a clear answer on where my future power will come from, not Europe or Pumps😜😜 Rant over🤪
 
Mar 14, 2005
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There is no alternative if you are towing, nothing is going to suddenly improve with battery technology,
Unfortunately like all doom merchants, you are cherry picking headlines which do not represent the full scope of the issues.

There are literally billions being spent on developing new battery technologies. Some of these are still hush hush, but others have published and give some very clear indications that new technologies stand a good chance of doubling the present energy density of LI Ion. They can also have much greater charger rates, reducing stoppage time to recharge to minutes rather than 10's. Batteries will have much better tolerance of deep cycling, and better degradation characteristics.

When these do come to market, most cars will 400 to 500 mile ranges, which is much closer to present day ICE vehicles, and thus far more likely to be suitable as a towing vehicle.

Just becasue you don't think any of them will suit you, does not mean they will not suits some others.

The choice is largely being made for us by Government over which we have virtually no control, so the change is coming whether you like it or not.
 

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