Alternatives to hydrocarbon fuels Energy density per kg comparisons the problem not talked about.

[ProfJohnL]

.... Then as EV Cars need more inferstructure, wear out roads more quickly.

Where is did you get this piece of incorrect information? What extra infrastructure do EV's need that is funded by the exchequer?

And so far all the reports I have seen conclude that EV's do less damage to the roads than ICE.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The maths don't add up.

Cold winter overcast still day a EV will have an equivalence CO2 emissions of grated than a IC car.

Even if this were true it would still be a win for the air quality in cities etc.

We haven't got new nuclear power station being planned so more reliance on gas power stations, don't forget the gover.ent is pushing airsource heating, and France will stop exporting, power cuts will be the end result.

Your comment suggests that nothing is likely to be done between now and when your scenario might come to pass. The fact is we are increasing both solar and wind, and other forms of generation, and in conjunction with storage systems, over production at any time can be stored to assist when demand exceeds instantaneous production capacity.

Add to that improving insulation to reduce heating demand, and deep ground sourced heat and the picture is not as bleak as you paint it.

 

[Buckman]

We haven't got new nuclear power station being planned so more reliance on gas power stations, don't forget the gover.ent is pushing airsource heating, and France will stop exporting, power cuts will be the end result.

Air source heating is very inefficient and probably a main cause of pollution as the electricity has to come from somewhere. When it gets really cold air source heating does not work very well and in temperature below -11V it does not work at all. It is also much more expensive to to use to heat a home than to use gas.
Every winter our unit ices up despite having a defrost cycle and when this happens, the unit struggles to keep the temperature at 20C so it is running constantly and your bill is going up. Not pleasant in the middle of winter when the inside temperature drops to below 20C. We then have to use our ga heater to bring up the temperature, but for obvious reasons we cannot have it running for more then about 30 minutes at a time.

 

[Dustydog]

Here’s a real leap of faith. Assuming the science is correct, I am sure it is, then an 80% charge in 5 minutes is excellent.The different technologies are fascinating. Utilising the battery as part of the vehicle structure opens up many new ideas. I can still these types being used in caravan structures thus providing the tug with even more power for towing. Why not?

https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets...in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air

 

[Buckman]

Here’s a real leap of faith. Assuming the science is correct, I am sure it is, then an 80% charge in 5 minutes is excellent.The different technologies are fascinating. Utilising the battery as part of the vehicle structure opens up many new ideas. I can still these types being used in caravan structures thus providing the tug with even more power for towing. Why not?

https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets...in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air

In the winter when heating is required in the cab of an EV wouldn't that reduce the range significantly? With an ICE vehicle if stuck on the motorway in freezing weather you can run the engine to keep warm, but what would you do with an EV?

 

[Dustydog]

According to the article the batteries will do 500 miles between charges. In the situation you describe there is no evidence ,yet , that the batteries will give up before an ICE. I have struggled with the EV concept but the more I read the more I believe it is achievable. And that’s from a real sceptic, originally😜😜

 

[otherclive]

In the winter when heating is required in the cab of an EV wouldn't that reduce the range significantly? With an ICE vehicle if stuck on the motorway in freezing weather you can run the engine to keep warm, but what would you do with an EV?

Canadians and Nordic’s will have a real problem then even without getting stuck. The heating requirements are dependant on speed and driving will cool the car faster. . A puzzle then as to why so many Norwegian are buying EV. Perhaps they drive slowly when it’s cold. The Finns don’t though.

 

[Buckman]

According to the article the batteries will do 500 miles between charges. In the situation you describe there is no evidence ,yet , that the batteries will give up before an ICE. I have struggled with the EV concept but the more I read the more I believe it is achievable. And that’s from a real sceptic, originally😜😜

From being the ultra sceptic I am now starting to fall into the same camp. We would only have it as a second car, but there is still the question of being able to afford to buy one even on HP.

 

[Buckman]

Canadians and Nordic’s will have a real problem then even without getting stuck. The heating requirements are independent of speed although driving will cool the car faster. . A puzzle then as to why so many Norwegian are buying EV.

Are their roads as busy as ours? Maybe they have a system to get vehicles moving again as soon as possible.
On one occasion many years ago in the summer we were stuck on the motorway for nearly 5 hours not moving and when we did eventually start moving it was stop and go for nearly 2 hours. Apparently 2 vehicles had been involved in a collison and there had been some injuries.

 

[otherclive]

Are their roads as busy as ours? Maybe they have a system to get vehicles moving again as soon as possible.
On one occasion many years ago in the summer we were stuck on the motorway for nearly 5 hours not moving and when we did eventually start moving it was stop and go for nearly 2 hours. Apparently 2 vehicles had been involved in a collison and there had been some injuries.

I guess in summer you turn the EV air on off and use windows. But when stopped you use no charge and very little when going slowly and braking or easing off brings regenerative charging into play.

 

[Buckman]

I guess in summer you turn the EV air on off and use windows. But when stopped you use no charge and very little when going slowly and braking or easing off brings regenerative charging into play.

The same situation in the winter may cause issues for an EV driver. If we were lucky enough to afford to be able to own a small EV, it will only be for town use and not motorway anyway.

 

[ProfJohnL]

In the winter when heating is required in the cab of an EV wouldn't that reduce the range significantly? With an ICE vehicle if stuck on the motorway in freezing weather you can run the engine to keep warm, but what would you do with an EV?

Exactly the same issue would result in an ICE vehicle if the tank was near empty, when the fuel runs out no more heat or motive power.

The real situation is that even though the heating in an ICE vehicle is derived from the waste heat generated by the engine, not all the waste heat is available to cabin heating, so you will be using fuel very inefficiently indeed (probably less than 10% efficiency) if you are only trying to keep warm.

By comparison in an EV any power used for heating all goes to the heating and that will consume less energy than the ICE car trying to do the same thing. It will be even better if the EV uses a heat pump where you actually get more heat energy than the electrical energy consumed.

However, many EV's have electrically heated seats, and it is actually even more efficient to use those than trying to heat the whole mass of air in the cabin. Whist from the electrical point of view the same would apply to ICE vehicles, the problem they have is the small size of battery they have would restrict how long you could do it, before you endanger being able to start the car.

Putting the whole scenario into perspective, What percentage of UK drivers get stuck in freezing conditions for hours on end each year? I'd guess at less than 0.001%. Is this a real problem for the UK?

 

[Dustydog]

Prof , there are two threads running which seem to be covering the same subject. Not sure if you have a chance to read it? See #781.
Tobes and Peter Day have brought a lot to the table recently with facts which have helped me get a much better understanding of EVs👏👏👏
No new diesel cars after 2030

 

[ProfJohnL]

Yes I am very much aware of all these threads. But whilst this thread is open the point needed to be clarified here.

 

[Peter day]

Unfortunately like all doom merchants, you are cherry picking headlines which do not represent the full scope of the issues.

There are literally billions being spent on developing new battery technologies. Some of these are still hush hush, but others have published and give some very clear indications that new technologies stand a good chance of doubling the present energy density of LI Ion. They can also have much greater charger rates, reducing stoppage time to recharge to minutes rather than 10's. Batteries will have much better tolerance of deep cycling, and better degradation characteristics.

When these do come to market, most cars will 400 to 500 mile ranges, which is much closer to present day ICE vehicles, and thus far more likely to be suitable as a towing vehicle.

Just becasue you don't think any of them will suit you, does not mean they will not suits some others.

The choice is largely being made for us by Government over which we have virtually no control, so the change is coming whether you like it or not.

two things against doubling battery energy for everyday use chemistry and physics

Why not detail the new the chemistry, physics, the only battery that is rechargable in the laboratory with major increase in power density runs at 500c.

You then have those who want funding who promise the world, a bit like the snake oil you can buy to increase mpg 20%, power by 50%

 

[arob.wk]

No energy expert here, but thought I'd add a few random thoughts.

Firstly - Producing liquid fuels from atmospheric carbon dioxide. This has been under study for years by many scientific teams and the economic viability was predicted many years ago. (I seem to think limestone is required in the process so there is a potential environment/mining issue in the offing if the process chemistry is entirely dependent on limestone - I dont know.) I believe this means of recycling CO2 for any type of motive fuel is primarily seen as a solution for aviation, shipping and commercial road transport, but ! (that's the Geordie 'but !' - I learned it off many Geordie friends at uni') .

2ndly - Maybe someone will develop even better battery technology idc not based on the fairly rare lithium element, but right now lithium is the sexy element everyone is depending on to substantially contribute to getting us all out of the climate mess. I'm just hoping Cornwall is not now majorly geologically raped (on top of kaolin mining) to get a profligate world out of a bind !!

3rdly - There was (maybe still is) a conspiracy theory that the petro-chemical industry suppressed the hydrogen powered car. Unfortunately it costs a lot of money to bottle the most common element in the world ! But like producing power from wind turbines (see below), maybe time will turn the tide ?!

4thly - Green electricity. At the start of the "green energy" age knowledgeable 'Greens' were very vociferous about the environmental/economic cost of manufacturing wind-turbines versus their "climate" savings. I don't doubt they were right - then! However, the more renewable energy one produces and uses in manufacture the less true that becomes - the "savings" must surely be exponential !?? (I have no idea whether "we" have crossed the threshold yet.)

5thly - Comparative costs. It might not be Rishi Sunak who persuades us of the direct link between stemming climate change and the cost of living (i.e. price of goods plus Tax) but we will have to accept very very soon, Survival of a planet (perhaps the only planet with sentient beings in our Universe or beyond - so some say) will not come cheap.

Summary:
I really really hate to say it, but I see nuclear power as a part of the means of saving our planet. (I hope "they" don't introduce many more nuclear-powered vehicles though - nuclear powered subs is already not good IMO. )
Perhaps, in time, we will find means of cost-effectively/RELIABLY launching our nuclear waste off towards the sun.
In the meantime, finding any really eureka-moment web-searches for scientific/alternative earth-saving energy developments makes my brain ache.
There will be, I'm sure though, increasingly (urgent) technologies investigated/developed and (equally urgent) human behaviours emerging , not least because of Covid-19 !!

[I stopped heating my house during winter many years ago - woolly pullies and layering really does work AND I am also helping to limit a proportion of the UK's economic wealth ending up in the pocket of energy companies/share-holders across the channel !!]

Just some random thoughts.

Edit: And then I forgot to add the thought/s that initiated the above - I reckon there will be acceptable alternatives to purely EV cars, but if not and if EV battery mileage/charge rates etc do not improve dramatically, then perhaps folk will get to know and enjoy their local environment rather more than hitherto !! Nothing wrong with the latter at all 🙂

 

[Peter day]

Unfortunately like all doom merchants, you are cherry picking headlines which do not represent the full scope of the issues.

There are literally billions being spent on developing new battery technologies. Some of these are still hush hush, but others have published and give some very clear indications that new technologies stand a good chance of doubling the present energy density of LI Ion. They can also have much greater charger rates, reducing stoppage time to recharge to minutes rather than 10's. Batteries will have much better tolerance of deep cycling, and better degradation characteristics.

When these do come to market, most cars will 400 to 500 mile ranges, which is much closer to present day ICE vehicles, and thus far more likely to be suitable as a towing vehicle.

Just becasue you don't think any of them will suit you, does not mean they will not suits some others.

The choice is largely being made for us by Government over which we have virtually no control, so the change is coming whether you like it or not.

So 25 years plus might be batteries with 50% more charge per kg.

 

[Raywood]

I would not quote Wickipedia, you need a reliable source to justify and allegations of this type.

 

[Buckman]

I would not quote Wickipedia, you need a reliable source to justify and allegations of this type.

What allegations?

 

[ProfJohnL]

two things against doubling battery energy for everyday use chemistry and physics

Why not detail the new the chemistry, physics, the only battery that is rechargable in the laboratory with major increase in power density runs at 500c.

You then have those who want funding who promise the world, a bit like the snake oil you can buy to increase mpg 20%, power by 50%

I am not privy to all the details of projects presently under development, and I doubt you are either. However in various respectable journals there have been various articles about different technologies, for example glass, and other solid state materials there are flow batteries . These are real projects and have demonstrated improved characteristics.

I seriously doubt that the kind of investment that has been made in alternative battery technologies would be taking place if there were not a realistic chance that they will pay off in the end. I'm not talking about crowdfunded projects where the investors are often unaware of the real difficulties of the development, but serious large organisations like car manufacturers inc. Tesla, several merchant banks and oil companies. These are organisations who have their heads screwed on and understand how to assess the viability of projects.

Obviously some projects may not work out as well as they hoped, but any improvement that reduces

• the reliance of rare or politically sensitive materials
• recharge times,
• battery mass per kWh
• battery size per kWh
• risks form being damaged
• Memory effects.
• dendrite creation
• non recyclable materials
• and
• manufacturing cost

Any reduction of any or all of these points has to be a good thing.

It is the very nature of new developments especially where they are looking to improve what has become an established norm, that they tend to take a long time, and the the benefits may arrive progressively rather than at once.

This is why using the norms of today to judge what the future holds has so often been proven wrong. The future look bleak, but in reality as we move forward the continual introduction of new solutions may barely be noticed on a day to day basis but collectively they can and will make some significant changes a few years down the line.

I'm not suggesting that all the problems will be solved by 2030 or even 2035 and some apsects may be difficult for some people, but I'd bet that many of the issues you consider to be major now, will either no longer be an issue at all either becasue they have been resolved, or teh circumstances have changed and the issue simply no longer exists. It will be a combination technologic development, or a change in habits or requirements that resolves them.

The issues do need to be discussed, but they should be done objectively with good evidence. We do need to make changes, but making unsubstantiated or inaccurate claims about how it can't work is a very negative perspective.

Just consider how many times in the past perceived barriers have eventually been broken? I'm looking forward to travelling faster than light.

 

[otherclive]

I would not quote Wickipedia, you need a reliable source to justify and allegations of this type.

You’ve lost me on this one. # 42 screen shot doesn’t make allegations it’s just stating some information. You May agree or disagree but certainly not allegations. It would be helpful if your comment either quoted or replied to the specific post concerning you.

 

[Dustydog]

I must have missed something? Was this article of no relevance. A few people seem to be mentioning bits of it , yet the article is scientifically specific? It must my age😃😃

Future batteries, coming soon: Charge in seconds, last months and power over the air

Energy capture, storage and generation remains a vibrant area of research. Here we examine show of the research breakthrough in future battery tech

www.pocket-lint.com

 

[ProfJohnL]

I must have missed something? Was this article of no relevance. A few people seem to be mentioning bits of it , yet the article is scientifically specific? It must my age😃😃

Future batteries, coming soon: Charge in seconds, last months and power over the air

Energy capture, storage and generation remains a vibrant area of research. Here we examine show of the research breakthrough in future battery tech

www.pocket-lint.com

Thankyou Dusty,

I have not seen this article before, but it does indeed point to a whole range of new battery types which seem to have many advantages over the presntday LI Ion. And does show that Peter day has not done his homework.

Peter does however raise points which less well read people may not have realised, and there is discussion to be had.

 

[Tobes]

I also tow an land rover on a trailer with generaly Generally 400 mile trip EV won't work for me!

I just did a 400mile (South Northants to Whitby) trip with my caravan (Bailey Unicorn S3 Vigo Max weight upgrade MTPLM 1550) , towed by my EV (Polestar 2 Launch edition). It took me maybe 10 to 15 mins longer than it would have done towing with my PHEV.

 

[Dustydog]

Thanks Prof
As a past sceptic I am fascinated that the future batteries can be part of the superstructure which vastly reduces weight as opposed to the EVs of today. With that in mind , just imagine caravans built with such materials adding to the useful range of the combined outfit.
Maybe I’m just a dreamer😉😉