Am I missing something here or is there contradictory/confusing info?

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all out there. I have just read an article that was presented in a link on another forum,the paragraph below has been copied and pasted. I did this so as not to miss out on any of the specific detail.
The topic on the said forum was asking could someone double check my calcs?

A trailer of over 750kg MAM (which in practice means almost every
caravan) may be towed provided the combined MAM doesn’t exceed 3500kg,
and the MAM of the towing vehicle does not exceed the unladen weight of
the towing vehicle.

I refer to the part that states :- and the MAM of the towing vehicle does not exceed the unladen weight of the towing vehicle.
The maximum authorised mass of any vehicle is by definition already exceeding the unladen weight because the unladen trailer when loaded to capacity then achieves the MAM. The unladen weight of the vehicle is part of that same vehicle when fully laden and therefore at MAM.

 

[Gafferbill]

The original typescript you are quoting has a misprint.
It should read.......

A trailer of over 750kg MAM (which in practice means almost every
caravan) may be towed provided the combined MAM doesn’t exceed 3500kg,
and the MAM of the towed vehicle does not exceed the unladen weight of
the towing vehicle.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi TR,
Ignoring the misprint that SIR Baldrick has mentioned it is still confusing and also incorrect, as it refers to different things it also depends on the context that the poster was answering to, because references to a trailer of 750kg is meaningless this is a seperate issue, 750kg is the limit that a trailer can be towed without brakes, just about every caravan ever made is in exess of this,and would have brakes anyway futhermore it would have no impact on the MAM of the towing vehicle.as even the lightest of cars capable of towing have a unladen weight. higher than this never mind about it's MAM.
secondly the only time a combind MAM needs to be below 3500kg is for licence holders that do not have the B+E catagory, otherwise I believe it is over 8tonne,
thirdly the reference to the towed vehicle not having a MAM higher than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle, is also wrong exept for the B+E bit, many towing vehicles can tow trailers well above the 100% ratio, as long as the combined weight of car and trailer does not exeed the max gross train weight printed on the towing vehicle VIN plate,
so really it depends on the context of the post, if it was aimed at a newbie without a B+E licence then apart from the braked trailer bit it is near enough for all others as an answer worth about 1 out of 10.

 

[Surfer]

The original typescript you are quoting has a misprint.
It should read.......

A trailer of over 750kg MAM (which in practice means almost every
caravan) may be towed provided the combined MAM doesn’t exceed 3500kg,
and the MAM of the towed vehicle does not exceed the unladen weight of
the towing vehicle.

How would this apply to a Ford Mondeo with a MIRO of 1595kg that can legally tow 1800kgs? BTW the part "MAM of the towed vehicle does not exceed the unladen weight of
the towing vehicle." is no longer applicable due to an amendment in January in the 2013 regulations. This is to bring us into line with EU regulations.
Unfortunately there are conflicing statemenst from VOSA where one person agrees with the amendment and the other states it is not applicable. Lutz hasa been chasing this up.

 

[Phillipcharnwoodforest]

I've just spent about 10mins reding and re-reading and studying where the missprint is. Yes I eventually found it, you were mighty observant there gafferbill.

Phillip.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Surfer,

I think it has been established that the OP's quote is erroneous, as the it was the MAM of the trailer that should not exceed the ULW of the tow vehicle.
With regard to your comment about the Mondeo, the towed weight limit of the Mondeo is the capacity of the car, where as the preceding limits relate to the limits of the driver's licence not the capcity of the car.

 

[Surfer]

Hello Surfer,

I think it has been established that the OP's quote is erroneous, as the it was the MAM of the trailer that should not exceed the ULW of the tow vehicle.
With regard to your comment about the Mondeo, the towed weight limit of the Mondeo is the capacity of the car, where as the preceding limits relate to the limits of the driver's licence not the capcity of the car.

According to the new amended legislation, a driver with a B licence can now tow a unit heavier than the kerbweight of the car but not exceeding the gross maximum train weight of the car or a maximum combination where the total is 3500kgs.

 

[ProfJohnL]

That is correct,

But I suspect the OP's comment related to the outgoing legislation that had probably not been updated (or checked for accuracy).

 

[Surfer]

I am also assuming that so post now seems irrelevant with no offence to poster. Problem is that regarding the amendment it seems VOSA offer conflicting advice about it. However it would not be good practice to be towing a unit that weighs more than the vehicle.
Am I correct in assuming that if you exceed a car's maximum towing weight no offence is commited if you are within the gross maximum train weight?

 

[ProfJohnL]

..... However it would not be good practice to be towing a unit that weighs more than the vehicle.....

I cannot fully agree with this. Some tow vehicles are specifically designed to cope with towed masses much greater than their own weight, for example large 4x4's often rated to tow up to 3500Kg.
Along with the oft quoted 85%, the 100% towing ratio has been endowed with unproven characteristics. Classically 'the tail wagging the dog' is the most common attribute associated with exceeding 100%. The problem is an outfit that is rated as 100% isn't actually 100% as the caravan may well be below its MTPLM and the tow vehicle will be above its MIRO, so its actually below 100%

There are outfits where the tail has wagged the dog, where the notional towing ratio is well below 100% and even below 85%. So this suggests the recommendation for towing a caravan (as opposed to just any trailer) for safety, drivers should be recommended a much lower percentage.

There is an increasing chance as the % ratio increases the out fit will tend towards instability but moving the ratio upwards does not automatically mean an outfit will become unstable, or that at any notional figure (such as 100%) a particular trait will occur. Its a complex issue, with many variables. I still maintain that the only sensible advice is to only tow the smallest trailer possible.

Am I correct in assuming that if you exceed a car's maximum towing weight no offence is commited if you are within the gross maximum train weight?

I don't believe you are correct. The vehicle manufacture will have set out as part of the vehicles type approval the maximum towed weight the vehicle can handle. This is not just a paper exercise to make the weight figures work, but a practical figure based on mechanical tests. If you exceed the specified max towed weight figure even if its within the GTW, you are exceeding the stresses and strains parts of the vehicle are designed and proved to handle. Consequently if nothing else you will be using a vehicle outside its proven operating limits which is potentially classed as unsafe loading, and it could actually damage the vehicles.

Why should anyone want to exceed a manufacturers specification? It simply foolish and unnecessary, and quite likely illegal.

 

[RogerL]

Vehicles can only have one towing limit - those with a limit greatly exceeding the kerbweight, eg Land Rover and Range Rover, have a 3500kg limit to permit them to tow slow agricultural trailers of that weight - whilst not illegal, the Solihull designers would never envisage towing a 3500kg caravan (if one existed) at 60mph with a 2500kg LR/RR.
Caravans can be the the most unstable of any trailer type - accepting the ADVICE not to exceed 100% of kerbweight is simply common sense for caravans.

The towing limit doesn't have a legal status - only the Gross Train Weight, Maximum Authorised Weight and Maximum Axle Weights are relevant - HOWEVER - for most cars the towing weight is calculated by the manufacturer as GTW-MAW but this still permits towing a higher load if the tow car isn'y fully laden.

 

[Gafferbill]

Ignoring the misprint that SIR Baldrick has mentioned it is still confusing and also incorrect, as it refers to different things it also depends on the context that the poster was answering to, because references to a trailer of 750kg is meaningless this is a seperate issue, 750kg is the limit that a trailer can be towed without brakes, just about every caravan ever made is in exess of this,and would have brakes anyway futhermore it would have no impact on the MAM of the towing vehicle.as even the lightest of cars capable of towing have a unladen weight. higher than this never mind about it's MAM.

The text quoted by the OP (with the miss print) is taken from the legislation that placed restrictions on Blicence holders who passed their test after January 1st 1997.......see here
The relevance of a 750kgs unbraked trailer is that such a a B license holder can tow such a trailer with a vehicle weighing 3500kgs.....with such a combinations and a B license, the driver is legal up to 4250kgs (not 3500kgs)

 

[Surfer]

A number of non commercial vehicles can tow in excess of 3500kg, i.e. Dodge vehicles, but are downgraded to tow a maximum of 3500kg. I cannot find any legilsation regarding it being illegal to tow more than the maximum braked towing weight of a vehicle. The Peugeot 3008 has a maximum braked towing weight fo about 1200kg but the MIRO is nearly 1500kgs. Same applies to the Antara with a MIRO of 1900kg which I am sure can easily tow more than 1700kgs.

 

[RogerL]

A number of non commercial vehicles can tow in excess of 3500kg, i.e. Dodge vehicles,

Dodge don't currently sell any non-commercial vehicles in the UK.
The Ram could tow over 3,500 in some versions but pick-ups are commercial vehicles and need a C1 licence at that weight.

 

[Surfer]

A number of non commercial vehicles can tow in excess of 3500kg, i.e. Dodge vehicles,

Dodge don't currently sell any non-commercial vehicles in the UK.
The Ram could tow over 3,500 in some versions but pick-ups are commercial vehicles and need a C1 licence at that weight.

The Jeep Grand Cherokee which is a non commercial vehicle can tow well in excess of 3500kg in the USA, but is restricted to 3500kg in this country.

 

[RogerL]

The 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee can tow 7,400 lbs in the USA - that's just 3,357 kg
http://www.jeep.com/en/2013/grand_cherokee/capability/towing/