Another Tow Car/Solo Car Question

[otherclive]

Not knocking it, but getting 20-25 miles on a charge for any car doesn't seem worth having a hybrid? Our nearest town is 10 miles away so not much of an option for us although probably we will not have any choice with our next vehicle purchase.

Our SIL has the Honda hybrid CRV which is a very nice car, but the only time the battery kicks in is when starting off and for less than a mile. After that it switches to petrol for the duration of his 25 mile trip to work.

Yes but it will be regenerating to some extent during that journey thus improving fuel economy especially in urban areas which was Hondas target. Compare the emissions of the 2.0 litre CRV hybrid with the previous 1.5 litre turbo non hybrid. Quite surprising.

If your town journey and back is 20 miles a PHEV would substantially improve your overall effective mpg providing you have an electric vehicle energy tariff. But I guess a lot depends on your usage pattern. My grandsons 5 series PHEV with a 2 litre petrol has far better overall economy than the straight petrol model, and that cars electric range is 20-25 miles too.

We are looking at a late model CRV but not sure if 2.5 turbo cvt or the later hybrid. Subarus hybrid e Boxer has a similar very low electric range, as does my daughters hybrid Corolla.

 

[trevormonty]

Hello all.

Thank you for the replies. I do admit, I never had an intention of it being purely an AWD/4x4 as I appreciate from readings these forums as a guest it isn’t necessity and eats into mpg.

The ones listed on my original post just always popped up time after time.

I’ll certainly carry on looking at estate/saloon type cars as they do seem to be a happy medium.

I’m largely restricting my self, as I’m too comfortable with all the mod cons/top spec my current car offers, as I intended to keep it for many years! Until it died, and as the replacement will be something I spend 50% of my time in, it needs to be reliable with all those features and last me for a long time!

The Merc/Kuga/Sportage/Tiguan mentioned here appear to be viable, all with varying prices but are a lot better than the likes of the Sorento on MPG. The Tiguan and Merc in particular being on the upper weight which is ideal.

I have looked at some petrol/hybrid models but they don’t appear to be too great on future proofing weight/on urban mpg. I suspect the newish ones are better, but I just can’t find any used with decent specs/price. Diesel always appears to come out ontop.

I guess I need to consider how much future proofing do I really need to do as I wouldn’t have any intention of getting a new car after this one is purchased until it couldn’t move anymore!

However, I don’t think I have seen any caravan over the 1600kg limit I would ever need or want at this stage, I only assumed as I/children got older, we would actually go smaller! I could be wrong though.

It’s a shame my current car just doesn’t have the weight or power, as I’m largely going to be upgrading, if it is the Kuga/Sportage for example for something only slightly bigger! If only I would have known all this at the time, would have saved me hassle.

As others have said, I still could look at a smaller van, but having toured the country and tested them all out, mostly! Something with a bit of room and separation seemed perfect, and always fell in a higher weight bracket, and cost either less or just a tiny bit more than a smaller van. Therefore didn’t want to limit myself due to the car.

My wife is naturally skeptical of towing in general and is of the mindset, bigger and more powerful just incase anything happens given we will have our daughter with us.

The used market is up and down at the moment so I’ll have to spend some more time I think deciding on the pros and cons of them.

Alternative is buy old 2nd vehicle for towing.

 

[Tobes]

Not knocking it, but getting 20-25 miles on a charge for any car doesn't seem worth having a hybrid? Our nearest town is 10 miles away so not much of an option for us although probably we will not have any choice with our next vehicle purchase.

Our SIL has the Honda hybrid CRV which is a very nice car, but the only time the battery kicks in is when starting off and for less than a mile. After that it switches to petrol for the duration of his 25 mile trip to work.

It depends on your use case. If you cant home charge (as is your case) a PHEV is useless. They only really work if you can charge every night. But if you have a regular trip that is inside the 20 mile range, it can be astonishingly good.
Newer version of the V60 (the new shape) have 50 miles real world range, but come with a price tag to match.

I think everyone knows my view - full EV is better still, but finding one that can tow 1500 - 1600kg in the OPs price range (they ruled out a used Polestar) is a tall order.

PHEV can be useful, but it's a definite "it depends".

 

[Hutch]

Remember some of the heavier cars ie Santa Fe and Sorrento, are not fixed 4x4 mine is front wheel drive , but I can lock the rear axle to give 4x4 but only upto 25 kph.

 

[RogerL]

Remember some of the heavier cars ie Santa Fe and Sorrento, are not fixed 4x4 mine is front wheel drive , but I can lock the rear axle to give 4x4 but only upto 25 kph.

Most "soft-roaders" are FWD most of the time - even LR Freelander and Discovery Sport are FWD most of the time, although in their case they always start from stationary in 4x4 mode.

Part-time 4x4 is more economical on fuel consumption but if a fault develops in the part-time mechanism they may not notify the fault and simply not operate just when needed most.

 

[Buckman]

Yes but it will be regenerating to some extent during that journey thus improving fuel economy especially in urban areas which was Hondas target. Compare the emissions of the 2.0 litre CRV hybrid with the previous 1.5 litre turbo non hybrid. Quite surprising.

If your town journey and back is 20 miles a PHEV would substantially improve your overall effective mpg providing you have an electric vehicle energy tariff. But I guess a lot depends on your usage pattern. My grandsons 5 series PHEV with a 2 litre petrol has far better overall economy than the straight petrol model, and that cars electric range is 20-25 miles too.

We are looking at a late model CRV but not sure if 2.5 turbo cvt or the later hybrid. Subarus hybrid e Boxer has a similar very low electric range, as does my daughters hybrid Corolla.

I was referring to the normal hybrid and not the PHEV as cannot plug in a PHEV. If you took out the heavy battery the range using fuel could perhaps be another 25-30 per tank full?

 

[otherclive]

I was referring to the normal hybrid and not the PHEV as cannot plug in a PHEV. If you took out the heavy battery the range using fuel could perhaps be another 25-30 mpg?

Normal hybrids generate pretty well continuously especially in urban environments through stop and go driving. But electric range is very limited. My daughter halved her fuel bills going from a 2016 1.6 petrol Focus auto to a 1.8 litre Corolla hybrid petrol auto. Her usage profile wasn’t any different.

Must have got sidetracked by your reference to Honda CRV hybrid as opposed to your firts para which mentioned hybrid in the context of PHEVs

Apologies

 

[Buckman]

Normal hybrids generate pretty well continuously especially in urban environments through stop and go driving. But electric range is very limited. My daughter halved her fuel bills going from a 2016 1.6 petrol Focus auto to a 1.8 litre Corolla hybrid petrol auto. Her usage profile wasn’t any different.

Must have got sidetracked by your reference to Honda CRV hybrid as opposed to your firts para which mentioned hybrid in the context of PHEVs

Apologies

Their Honda CRV is not a PHEV so apologies if I worded it incorrectly. We have been looking at the Toyota RAV AWD which is hybrid, but not PHEV. However we are also looking at other smaller AWD vehicles like Honda CRV, Mitsubishi etc.

 

[Guzzilazz]

I was referring to the normal hybrid and not the PHEV as cannot plug in a PHEV. If you took out the heavy battery the range using fuel could perhaps be another 25-30 mpg?

As an HEV owner, that's wrong. The benefit you get with and HEV is at lower speeds in traffic. I can't get more than a mile or so on pure electric, BUT with the mix my normal driving (mixed urban, country roads) the consumption is 53mpg. On motorway trips the consumption is 43-45. Ican go to pick up a kebab a couple of miles away, and often the return journey (car warmed up), is between 80-100 mpg.

I am delighted that I've swapped to an HEV much better than the previous XC40 mHEV (mild hybris is marketing BS) where the BEST fuel consumption was 36mpg. The Sportage averages 53...

 

[Buckman]

As an HEV owner, that's wrong. The benefit you get with and HEV is at lower speeds in traffic. I can't get more than a mile or so on pure electric, BUT with the mix my normal driving (mixed urban, country roads) the consumption is 53mpg. On motorway trips the consumption is 43-45. Ican go to pick up a kebab a couple of miles away, and often the return journey (car warmed up), is between 80-100 mpg.

I am delighted that I've swapped to an HEV much better than the previous XC40 mHEV (mild hybris is marketing BS) where the BEST fuel consumption was 36mpg. The Sportage averages 53...

What is a HEV?

 

[otherclive]

What is a HEV?

Hybrid (HEV ) is on a par with your sons CRV, my daughters Corolla etc. It has a small battery that gives limited range on electric but has improved overall fuel consumption cf an equivalent ICE. Don’t know what RAV you may be looking at but until recently most Toyotas with electric drive were hybrid. IE not plug ins.

For completeness here’s a link explaining a mild hybrid as opposed to Hybrid or PHEV.

What is a mild hybrid car and should you buy one?

Many cars have mild-hybrid engines but how does the tech work and how are they different to hybrids and PHEVs? Here's everything you need to know about MHEVs...

www.whatcar.com

 

[Buckman]

Hybrid (HEV ) is on a par with your sons CRV, my daughters Corolla etc. It has a small battery that gives limited range on electric but has improved overall fuel consumption cf an equivalent ICE. Don’t know what RAV you may be looking at but until recently most Toyotas with electric drive were hybrid. IE not plug ins.

For completeness here’s a link explaining a mild hybrid as opposed to Hybrid or PHEV.

What is a mild hybrid car and should you buy one?

Many cars have mild-hybrid engines but how does the tech work and how are they different to hybrids and PHEVs? Here's everything you need to know about MHEVs...

www.whatcar.com

Thanks as I was not aware of the mild hybrid probably because none of the models appealed to us.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I was referring to the normal hybrid and not the PHEV as cannot plug in a PHEV. If you took out the heavy battery the range using fuel could perhaps be another 25-30 mpg?

I have a VW Passat GTE PHEV, with a 10kWh battery, I don't have a dedicated charger, I use a normal 13A socket with cable and inline charger that takes allows a 2.4kW charge rate. Using the economy 7 period (via a timer) that is entirely capable of providing a full charge overnight.

When new the car was supposed to have a 30 mile range on battery only operation, but I bought it second hand at 4 years old, and the best I can getis about 25miles BEV range. Most of my journeys used to be less than a 20 mile round trip for which the battery was absolutely fine. But since my wife passed away suddenly in June, I'm doing fewer journeys but the one I do tend to be longer, and exceed the battery only range. But that's not bad because the effect of the battery makes the petrol engine still give a combined mpg of at least 50 and up to 107 mpg.

If for any reason I cant recharge the battery from the mains, the cars ability to reclaim energy from braking helps to return a minimum of 45mpg and up to 70mpg.

Compared to my previous 168bhp diesel Passat in which I could only get about 47mpg at best (short journeys) and issues with DPF, I'm really pleased with PHEV.

If you have the opportunity to access mains power at home - a PHEV is entirely possible. If you don't have access to mains a HEV is still a realistic solution.

It is wrong to suggest that by ditching the weight of a hybrid battery would give 25 to 30 more mpg. That is simply unrealistic. In my case the 10kWh battery and drive in my car only adds about 150kg to the base vehicle weight which is roughly the equivalent to the weight of two adult passengers.

 

[GaryB]

I took delivery of an Audi A6 TFSI-e on Saturday (ex-demo, 3 months old) with a 17.9KWh battery. As per John L above I charge at home from a 3-pin plug on Economy 7 (13.4p per KWh from memory), Audi claim a range of 39 miles on a full charge. I drove to Wrexham yesterday (85 miles) in hybrid mode and returned 69mpg. On arrival the battery was pretty much depleted and I got 43mpg on the return journey. Not bad for a car with a 2150kg kerbweight.

 

[Buckman]

It is wrong to suggest that by ditching the weight of a hybrid battery would give 25 to 30 more mpg. That is simply unrealistic. In my case the 10kWh battery and drive in my car only adds about 150kg to the base vehicle weight which is roughly the equivalent to the weight of two adult passengers.

Taking into account the weight of the battery, the weight of a full tank of fuel and the driver surely that will affect the mpg?

 

[RogerL]

Taking into account the weight of the battery, the weight of a full tank of fuel and the driver surely that will affect the mpg?

The battery weight will affect the pure petrol/diesel fuel consumption - but maybe 1-2 mpg - certainly not 25-30 mpg.

 

[otherclive]

I have a VW Passat GTE PHEV, with a 10kWh battery, I don't have a dedicated charger, I use a normal 13A socket with cable and inline charger that takes allows a 2.4kW charge rate. Using the economy 7 period (via a timer) that is entirely capable of providing a full charge overnight.

When new the car was supposed to have a 30 mile range on battery only operation, but I bought it second hand at 4 years old, and the best I can getis about 25miles BEV range. Most of my journeys used to be less than a 20 mile round trip for which the battery was absolutely fine. But since my wife passed away suddenly in June, I'm doing fewer journeys but the one I do tend to be longer, and exceed the battery only range. But that's not bad because the effect of the battery makes the petrol engine still give a combined mpg of at least 50 and up to 107 mpg.

If for any reason I cant recharge the battery from the mains, the cars ability to reclaim energy from braking helps to return a minimum of 45mpg and up to 70mpg.

Compared to my previous 168bhp diesel Passat in which I could only get about 47mpg at best (short journeys) and issues with DPF, I'm really pleased with PHEV.

If you have the opportunity to access mains power at home - a PHEV is entirely possible. If you don't have access to mains a HEV is still a realistic solution.

It is wrong to suggest that by ditching the weight of a hybrid battery would give 25 to 30 more mpg. That is simply unrealistic. In my case the 10kWh battery and drive in my car only adds about 150kg to the base vehicle weight which is roughly the equivalent to the weight of two adult passengers.

Prof
Thank you for the write up. It’s not often that you read if a real life comparison ostensibly betwen two very similar cars on their journey patterns with the same driver. It mirrors my grandsons experience with a 5 series PHEV 2.0 litre petrol.

 

[Buckman]

The battery weight will affect the pure petrol/diesel fuel consumption - but maybe 1-2 mpg - certainly not 25-30 mpg.

Oops I did mean 20-30 miles over a full tank and not mpg.

 

[Tobes]

I have a VW Passat GTE PHEV, with a 10kWh battery, I don't have a dedicated charger, I use a normal 13A socket with cable and inline charger that takes allows a 2.4kW charge rate. Using the economy 7 period (via a timer) that is entirely capable of providing a full charge overnight.

When new the car was supposed to have a 30 mile range on battery only operation, but I bought it second hand at 4 years old, and the best I can getis about 25miles BEV range. Most of my journeys used to be less than a 20 mile round trip for which the battery was absolutely fine. But since my wife passed away suddenly in June, I'm doing fewer journeys but the one I do tend to be longer, and exceed the battery only range. But that's not bad because the effect of the battery makes the petrol engine still give a combined mpg of at least 50 and up to 107 mpg.

If for any reason I cant recharge the battery from the mains, the cars ability to reclaim energy from braking helps to return a minimum of 45mpg and up to 70mpg.

Compared to my previous 168bhp diesel Passat in which I could only get about 47mpg at best (short journeys) and issues with DPF, I'm really pleased with PHEV.

If you have the opportunity to access mains power at home - a PHEV is entirely possible. If you don't have access to mains a HEV is still a realistic solution.

It is wrong to suggest that by ditching the weight of a hybrid battery would give 25 to 30 more mpg. That is simply unrealistic. In my case the 10kWh battery and drive in my car only adds about 150kg to the base vehicle weight which is roughly the equivalent to the weight of two adult passengers.

Prof, I was unaware of your loss. My condolences.

My V60 PHEV (10kWh battery, 8kWh usable) was supposed to be 30 miles range - but based on the NEDS test data. It was only 9 months old when I got it, and managed 20 to 25 (25 in summer). It's lost none of its range and is now 8 years old. (I sold it to my FIL three years ago, he is now selling it to my son!).

Totally agree on the extra range associated with weight - any difference it does make is in the noise. Aerodynamics have a _much_ bigger impact, and (IMHO) this where PHEVs tend to lose out to BEV (but not HEV). PHEV and HEV both have an engine that needs to breathe and, more importantly, be cooled. The effect of drag caused by having a radiator exposed for cooling is significant. The 1st edition Polestar 2 (mine) had a grill that was essentially borrowed from the ICE version of the Volvo XC40. The later models closed this grill (as the level of radiator cooling provided was totally uncessary), and the real world range (with a couple of other changes) has gone from 240miles to 330 miles. Those other changes included adding a heat pump for heat (much heavier than a resistive heater) and a marginally bigger battery (78/75 usable to 82/78 usable).

 

[ProfJohnL]

Taking into account the weight of the battery, the weight of a full tank of fuel and the driver surely that will affect the mpg?

I'm not sure what the point your trying to make is? but;

Of course the items you mention will all affect the mpg, but the driver will always be present when the car is driven, so that's a common factor to all driven scenarios.

In terms of the fuel, that depends on the vehicle but a PHEV and Hybrid still have ice's so they also have fuel tanks. Often hybrids and certainly my PHEV has a smaller (50L) fuel tank compared to the full ICE version of my car, so those again are not as dramatic change in comparative weights.

The heavier a vehicle is will always adversely affect its potential mpg. That is physical certainty. The degree of the effect is always going to be difficult to predict, as there are so many other non weight related variables, such as speed and its affect on the aerodynamic drag. rolling resistance of tyres , the water moving capability of tyres when its raining also uses energy and that affects mpg, how heavy the drivers right foot is, Weather conditions.

At least with my own experience of my last two cars both Passat estates (2008 and 2017 models) I am in a reasonable position to make fair comparisons.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Prof, I was unaware of your loss. My condolences.

This is the first time I have mentioned it. but thank you.

 

[trevormonty]

Taking into account the weight of the battery, the weight of a full tank of fuel and the driver surely that will affect the mpg?

Extra weight needs more energy to accelerate up to speed and climb hills. Being hybrid alot of that energy is recovered slowing down or descending unlike standard ICE where none is recovered. On flat at speed air drag followed by rolling resistance are biggest consumers of energy. Extra mass will add a little to rolling resistance but won't affect air drag.

 

[Buckman]

Extra weight needs more energy to accelerate up to speed and climb hills. Being hybrid alot of that energy is recovered slowing down or descending unlike standard ICE where none is recovered. On flat at speed air drag followed by rolling resistance are biggest consumers of energy. Extra mass will add a little to rolling resistance but won't affect air drag.

Unless I have misunderstood surely with an ICE vehicle there is no need to recover energy? Generally if I see I am coming to a stop, I sort of "coast" up to the stop. Going downhill again very similar as no need to power downhill unless a boy racer.

 

[RogerL]

Unless I have misunderstood surely with an ICE vehicle there is no need to recover energy? Generally if I see I am coming to a stop, I sort of "coast" up to the stop. Going downhill again very similar as no need to power downhill unless a boy racer.

Whether you brake or coast to a stop, the energy used previously to get the vehicle up to speed is wasted in a pure IC vehicle. Recovering some of that energy is the whole point of regenerative braking which can then be used to assist the next acceleration cycle.

 

[Buckman]

Whether you brake or coast to a stop, the energy used previously to get the vehicle up to speed is wasted in a pure IC vehicle. Recovering some of that energy is the whole point of regenerative braking which can then be used to assist the next acceleration cycle.

Okay understand your point, but surely regenerative braking will never recover the energy used to get the vehicle up to speed especially in an urban area?