Automated Number Plate Recognition

[rayc]

beemermal, you are not listening " INNOCENT MOTORISTS HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR"

I agree with everything you have said and none of the supporters of the policy in this thread have addressed your, and my, fear. None of them has been able to say why it now considered prudent to carry the insurance certificate, when it has been the norm for decades to be issued with a 7 day producer. For some reason that I cannot fathom they do not appear to support an advertising campaign to explain to drivers the current stratagy.

 

[BrianStAlbans]

Keeping your insurance with you may be the answer but as both my wife and I drive the car what do we do .The thought of rummaging down my wife's handbag to find the insurance every time I want to pop down to the shops doesn't appeal ;O(

And how about my company car, no chance of getting the certificate for that. Same goes for my wifes new lease car when it arrives soon I suppose.

 

[BeemerMal]

RayC you said:

beemermal, you are not listening " INNOCENT MOTORISTS HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR"

Sorry but I disagree, on this thread Damian sited a case where his daughter had her "insured" car impounded because the car did not show on the ANPR database.

Also, this thread is running on another Caravan forum and a members there say their cars are not shown on the ANPR database. So INNOCENT MOTORISTS DO HAVE SOMETHING TO FEAR!

I agree that to carry a certificate now is sensible but as others have suggested this is not always possible with multiple drivers of the same vehicle. That is one reason why it has always been the accepted practice for the police to offer the driver a 7 day notice to present insurance or other documents to a police station.

I know the uninsured driver will drive off and not be seen again and I think this is a downside to the argument but as it stands now the innocent, insured driver is currently being treated as a criminal and they are having their cars impounded and are effectively being found guilty, on the spot, with little redress just because the "computer says no"

The letter of the law may well say that we must all carry an insurance certificate when driving. However, if this is correct? it is a law that must be made much clearer to motorists throughout the UK. It is more important now in light of the current increase in ANPR checks.

Of course an idea would be to have a secure "insurance" window sticker, like the tax disc, with it being an offence, if it is not correctly displayed.

 

[emmitdb]

Greeting All,

I'm not going to pontificate but having read (and even commented upon ) this thread I think that there needs to be some guidance on this subject.

I give it in the spirit of friendship and I'm not trying to teach anybody how to suck eggs.

Some have said that they were unaware that it is or was a legal necessity to carry insurance.

You do now!!!

Some of you say that "several drivers drive the car." I share the car with the wife "etc etc. Good try but no cigar.

ANY evidence that you have a certificate is better than no certificate and I would suggest that you get yourself to a photocopier pronto.

No. It isn't the real thing but what you are doing is making it obvious to the policeman that you are not prepared to allow hime to take the car from you without a fight. I can tell you that a PC faced with a photocopy of his Cert of Ins and Test Cert together with his Drivers Licence (we haven't got to that yet have we? from a reasonable member of society would not risk a complaint and an interview with his Discipline and Complaints Department(or whatever the Dept. is called in that Police Authority)

Think about this logically.

If your vehicle had a valid Tax Disc, you wouldn't remove it before you drove and left it at home.

Why? Because that is evidence that the vehicle is taxed.

Why then do you not carry a similar document to prove that the vehicle is insured (and MOTed as well if the cap fits.)

When we drag our tin tents over (or under) the water, how many of us leave the Insurance, Licence and MOT at home. Not many. Why? Because your'e not sure that you can argue your way out of the argument faced in a foreign country.

And lastly, it has been said that you wern't aware and that there should be more publicity. Maybe so but I've seen enough adverts, articles, programmes on the box that advise that if I don't have a valid Tax Disc then my car is in danger of being crushed. Don't tell me that the articles etc. didn't get your brains pushing themselves ever so slightly laterally into thinking about the other documents.

Who in his right mind would want to have to visit the Police Station cap in hand and stand, sit with a load of drongo's merely because he or she wasn't prepared to carry a piece of paper.

I know what I would rather do.

Thats it

Iv'e said my piece

Where's that darkened room?

 

[RJC]

Hi all

I work in Dublin.

In the Republic of Ireland it is the law that you have to display your insurance certificate in the car. They have specially designed tax disc holders so that you can display both the tax disc and the insurance cert.

This does not completely eradicate the problem of uninsured drivers though and the gardai are introducing ANPR.

I don't understand why the UK cannot adopt a similar solution (i.e. making it law that the insurance cert must be displayed in the car). As stated above it would probably not eradicate the problem of uninsured drivers but it might help and it would solve the problem that people have desribed on here.

If a car has multiple drivers as long as the driver is named on the insurance cert then there is no need to "get yourself to a photo-copier" as the cert would be in the car whoever is driving.

I found the system when I lived in Dublin a few years back to be very straightforward and would commend it to the House!!!!.

Cheers

Richard

 

[emmerson2]

Why not go the whole hog and either include basic Road Traffic Act only insurance in with road tax, or better yet, abolish road tax, and include it in fuel cost, then supply basic insurnce instead of Road tax. That way there would be no untaxed cars, everyone would have basic insurance, and if they want extra cover, the y buy it as we do now. Or is that to simple?

 

[Meister]

When I win the Euro Millions Lottery (oh yes I will lol) I am going to buy myself a shiny new Range Rover, put my personal number plate on it and

DRIVE WITH NO INSURANCE AT ALL

yet still be fully within the law !!!

Now then ...... who is going to tell me how this can be true ??

Steve

 

[emmitdb]

Greeting again,

Putting the price of the tax came up a couple of weeks ago when the government discovered that apparently 29% of motorcycles arn't taxed.

It was said by those in the m/cycle community is that they have several vehicles each and it wasn't worthwhile taxing all the vehicles to use on only a few days a year.

The important piece that came out of this was a government spokesman who insisted that it was ineffiecient to put the tax on the fuel.

For efficient read expedient.

If all that was needs was the man at Shell to add x to his daily cheque he sends to the treasury to pay for the taxation on the fuel leaving their depots,

WE WOULDN'T NEED AN ARMY OF BEAUROCRATS AT SWANSEA.

That army are government employees that have been created in what was an unemployment blackspot.

 

[emmitdb]

When I win the Euro Millions Lottery (oh yes I will lol) I am going to buy myself a shiny new Range Rover, put my personal number plate on it and

DRIVE WITH NO INSURANCE AT ALL

yet still be fully within the law !!!

Now then ...... who is going to tell me how this can be true ??

Steve

Meister,

Youy are going to deposit an amount of money into the High Court.

Cant tell you what it is now but it used to be

 

[RogerL]

When I win the Euro Millions Lottery (oh yes I will lol) I am going to buy myself a shiny new Range Rover, put my personal number plate on it and

DRIVE WITH NO INSURANCE AT ALL

yet still be fully within the law !!!

Now then ...... who is going to tell me how this can be true ??

Steve

Del beat me to it - does the High Court have to update the MID in this case?

 

[emmerson2]

Meister, this would be quite legal, provided you lodged, I think

 

[colin(bridgend)]

My daughter was stopped at Builth Wells by VOSA a few years ago whilst driving my Daihatsu Fourtrack. It was the week before the Royal Welsh Show. They were doing a spot check on diesel fuel. She told the inspector as a joke that if it was pink diesel then they had better check the fuel tanks in Tesco in Bridgend as she had filled up there before leaving for North Wales and showed the receipt to him (sorry Diane LOL). The police officer on duty then proceded to ask her who owned the vehicle and whether it was taxed, insured and MOT. She told him that as he had a computer in his car he could check all that up himself by just typing in the registration mark. After a few terse comments from both sides my daughter told him that he could have saved a lot of time by doing it whilst the fuel was being checked. He then asked her what she meant to which she replied that she worked for the police for six years in admin. support unit and was fully aware of procedures when stopping motorists. He apologised and told her all was OK and to carry on. Jumped up little officer after his stripes no doubt.

 

[emmitdb]

My daughter was stopped at Builth Wells by VOSA a few years ago whilst driving my Daihatsu Fourtrack. It was the week before the Royal Welsh Show. They were doing a spot check on diesel fuel. She told the inspector as a joke that if it was pink diesel then they had better check the fuel tanks in Tesco in Bridgend as she had filled up there before leaving for North Wales and showed the receipt to him (sorry Diane LOL). The police officer on duty then proceded to ask her who owned the vehicle and whether it was taxed, insured and MOT. She told him that as he had a computer in his car he could check all that up himself by just typing in the registration mark. After a few terse comments from both sides my daughter told him that he could have saved a lot of time by doing it whilst the fuel was being checked. He then asked her what she meant to which she replied that she worked for the police for six years in admin. support unit and was fully aware of procedures when stopping motorists. He apologised and told her all was OK and to carry on. Jumped up little officer after his stripes no doubt.

Colin,

Some of got them without being 'jumped up' (but I know what you mean)

 

[ProfJohnL]

The increased use of ANPR systems is an effective method by which a vehicles status can be quickly assessed. It would be interesting to know how stolen many vehicles have been recovered because an ANPR in a police vehicle has detected a reported number plate. How many of these would have gone un-noticed if it simply relied on the vigilance of police officers.

If it also flags up vehicles that are suspected of not having tax or Insurance of MOT, then all the better. People who evade these requirements are stealing from all of us, and pushing costs of car ownership even higher.

We have to display a current tax disk, (though like a previous respondnat I think it would be better to load the fuel duty) and that is relatively easy because it related directly to the car, and does not have to carry any personally identifiable information. The same could be said of the MOT, and it might help to have to display an MOT disk.

But when it comes to insurance, there are difficulties relating to the information that would be required to be displayed to make it have any viable use.

Car insurance is related to named driver(s) and it would be inappropriate to have the names and addresses of the insured on public display.

So an insurance disk would not name who is eligible to drive the vehicle. Equally ther are occasions when unnamed driver can legitimately drive most cars, such a garage mechanics, hotel parking attendants etc.

It is a good idea to carry policy details with you, but if you are required to produce a Certificate of Insurance to satisfy the authorities, then the Insurance companies are not very helpful when they seem to print them on A4 sheets, which don't fold up and cannot be easily stored in a pocket or handbag.

It seems to me that the Insurance companies should issue the certificate in the form of a chip and pin plastic card. - easy to keep in a wallet or handbag. It would mean that you would have your insurance details to hand in the event of needing to quote your policy number and company. The chip and pin could be used driver and the police to verify the holders identify and thus the cover afforded by the policy. Or when purchasing a new tax disk.

 

[Chrisbee]

I'm all for ANPR systems. I drive past a site where a van is positioned every couple of weeks on my way to work. Because I'm legal I don't get stopped. Once apon a time I would often get stopped in "routine checks" even though I was fully legal. A time consuming exercise which had little chance of catching a decent proportion of motoring offenders but made me late for work!

Chrisbee

 

[RogerL]

Apparently the main benefit of ANPR isn't the detection of motoring offences - it's the opportunity to stop, search and question serious criminals, with resulting crime reduction and clear-up, as they don't bother keeping the cars legal.

 

[CheapnCheerful]

I think that most, if not all the posters here are in favour of ANPR in principle as it is a very powerful tool in crime fighting, not just motoring issues. I am sure it is often the case that a serious criminal responsible for much more serious crimes gets caught as a result of a minor motoring offence picked up by ANPR.

However, the problem appears to be over zealous police offices who will not believe anything other than the computer. One wonders if even the production of a valid certificate would pacify them since they could argue it might be a forgery...

 

[RogerL]

Even if you've got your insurance certificate with you, the police CAN'T tell if it's a forgery - nowadays many policies are internet only so you print your own! If they have any reason for suspicion they can contact the insurer on the certificate and check the cover against the policy number.

 

[Meister]

Those who answered my question about having no insurance are correct.

There is no legal requirement to have insurance IF I have lodged a sum of money as surety with the appropriate government person/department.

When I did my Police training (which was quite a few years ago lol) it was the Secretary of State for Transport and the sum was something like

 

[EmmanuelMuldoon]

Slightly OT but relevant. I am sure I heard a year or two ago that the Police advise you should not carry your Driving licence with you thesedays.

If this is the case, and you get pulled over miles from home, say on a fortnights holiday, how are you supposed to present it to a Station within 7 days?

 

[rayc]

beemeral, with reference to you post

"RayC you said:

beemermal, you are not listening " INNOCENT MOTORISTS HAVE NOTHING TO FEAR"

Sorry but I disagree, on this thread Damian sited a case where his daughter had her etc."

Beemermal, it was a cynical response to Martin's statement. Sorry if you misunderstood. I went on to agree with everything you said and if you read my posts on this subject this has always been my stance..

 

[BeemerMal]

RayC....No worries, sorry, I misunderstood your earlier comment. Obviously the Capitals jumped out and I reacted to those more than anything.....Anyway I am allowed a "senior moment" am I not?

 

[colin(bridgend)]

Brilliant excuse - any problems with any of my postings in future will be put down to a "senior moment". Why didn't I think of that before. Well done sir.

 

[Thorpedo]

I hadn't realised that it was a legal requirement to carry insurance and possibly other documents with me all times.

Of all the ludicrous nonsense.

Should my vehicle or my wallet be pinched the low life now has proof of identity with my driving licence, my car insurance and my MOT etc.

How can this possibly work when more than 1 person drives the same vehicle? Myself, wife and daughter all use the same car, so the only practical way to adhere to the law is to leave the docs in the car.

Perhaps I should leave my passport, cheque book and credit card in the car as well; I wouldn't like to think the car thief was short of cash for his next fix.

Think I'll write my pin numbers on the back of the sun visor.

I'm not against sensible surveillance, and picking up non insured, non taxed, drunk, drugged up, and dangerous drivers is a priority, I'd even go as far as saying dangerously laden and mismatched Car/Caravans outfits should be pulled, but surely there has to be sense applied by OUR police, yes OUR police, we pay for them we should expect to be treated with respect.

Just as if we really have done something seriously wrong we should expect to pay the penalty.

Unless there is more to Damians story than meets the eye his daughters experience shows a total disregard by the authorities for the very people who employ them (The taxpayer).

A full refund and an apology would have been in order.

 

[Lutz]

Following RJC's comment on how the Irish try to prevent uninsured vehicles from being used on the road, here's another alternative which is used in some other countries, including parts of the United States:

The vehicle licensing office sticks the tax disk (or equivalent) to the number plate and it can't be removed without destroying it. Whenever the car is sold and tax is no longer paid, you take the car (or just the plates) to the licensing office, and they remove the tax disk. The plates without the tax disk can then be put back on the vehicle but it can no longer be driven on public roads (no tax - no insurance, and vice versa). It is therefore relatively easy to recognise a plate without a tax disk.

The main shortcoming of this system is when somebody fails to pay his premium at some later time, but then the licensing office still has his address on file so it shouldn't be difficult to find the car. Of course, this system also only works if the insurance companies exchange the necessary data with the vehicle licensing office.