Parksy
Moderator
I've added this thread to the B+E Automatic thread because there are at least three threads currently running about the same topic.
I wonder if I am eligible for a refund on my Test Fees?
Kind of annoying, that something I paid to train for and took an additional formal driving test for, is now automatically available [free] to everyone, even if they are not competent.
Kind of annoying, that something I paid to train for and took an additional formal driving test for, is now automatically available [free] to everyone, even if they are not competent.
I could ask the same question as to why after paying for the required amount of stamps my State Pension is lower than someone retiring now who hasn’t worked and paid for as long as I did?
So basically my Wife who passed her test in 99 will still need to have a test to tow above 3500 mam, or am i reading this wrong?
You're reading it wrong - from later this autumn, your wife will be able to drive a vehicle up to 3500 kg towing a trailer up to 3500 kg - when she renews her licence, it'll be updated to show BE
Hold on, there are suggestions that due to public opposition the change may not take place. Possibly we need figures to see if the change in regulations made any difference. I doubt it but could be proved wrong.
What public opposition and why would any one oppose it if it is advantageous to them?
What public opposition and why would any one oppose it if it is advantageous to them?
I guess the only opposition is from people who have trained and paid for a test which is now moot. Also B+E training providers are now surplus to requirements.
On the bright side, my wife can now tow our caravan should she want/need to.
Whilst the latest revelations on the Gov't web site are a strong indication of intent, until it actually happens and it is enshrined in law, do not assume it's a slam dunk.
The Gov't web site has been wrong before on towing regulations due to the fact the web site is written by mandarins who have interpreted the regulations incorrectly, for example failing to understand the difference between a measured weight and a weight limit, which would have rendered some drivers believing themselves to be within the law but were actually driving without the correct licence entitlements.
The Gov't web site has been wrong before on towing regulations due to the fact the web site is written by mandarins who have interpreted the regulations incorrectly, for example failing to understand the difference between a measured weight and a weight limit, which would have rendered some drivers believing themselves to be within the law but were actually driving without the correct licence entitlements.
There will be those who do not think it is a good move, just as there’s opposition to the changes in HGV driver hours or testing regime. Once you’ve embedded a safety based regulation it’s hard to roll it back as the critics will want evidence that safety will not be prejudiced. Of course that evidence cannot be presented until the roll back period is sufficiently long to provide a comparison. That’s why there are renewed calls for caravans to be registered and subjected to safety tests in order to try and offset any reduction in overall safety.What public opposition and why would any one oppose it if it is advantageous to them?
It must be remembered it was only introduced to please our EU overlords. Was there really any necessity for it in the UK prior to it being made law and has it made any difference. Unfortunately I doubt if any of us mere mortals will ever know. Seen or read about more caravan accidents where they are single axle and probably under the 3500kg limit.
Too many questions, not enough answers I’m afraid. But since the majority of caravans are single axle it’s not really a surprise that single axles feature more in accidents. But fundamentally I think the B-E test was a good idea as in the days since I first ventured forth cars have got faster, road speed limits have increased, ( my minivan limited to 40 mph) caravans have got bigger, and roads much more busy and crowded. So I don’t think that training and a test to show a level of competence is a bad thing.
I do agree about the test or more accurately the training leading up to the test for BE is/was a good thing. In much the same way the caravan clubs towing awareness courses have probably genuinely helped to make new towers more aware of the additional risks and responsibilities of setting up an outfit ready for towing.
Nothing wrong with the test just aimed at the wrong type of people I guess. How many of us have been passed by a vehicle towing a caravan and there is no doubt that they are doing in excess of 60mph on the motorway.
Not so long ago on an A road we were overtaken by a Disco towing a single axle older caravan and this happened in a 40mph zone. According to my Satnav we were doing 40mph.
Overloading is another issue and even B+E does not prevent this or the speeding. IMHO to make roads safer we need more traffic officers patrolling the roads and also more cameras.
However taking it a step further if it were reported in mainstream newspapers that police were targetting people towing caravans with huge fines for speeding and overloading, just maybe it will make people think and also pigs may fly!
Possibly the way forward would be to replace the test with a compulsary instruction course similar to that run by the clubs with you sending the certificate to get the B+E licence.
I would have very serious concerns if the clubs were made the arbiters of driving competence. How would they be regulated to ensure the same level of assessment of driving competence were applied equally - Sorry but it would not work.
Also it effectively promotes the clubs trainers to the position of DVLA Driving testers.
And also towing is not just the preserve of caravanners! It would not sit well with other perfectly legitimate towers having to go to the caravanning clubs to be trained and get a certificate to obtain B+E.
Very true. All B+E training and testing is/was done with a box trailer of DVSA mandated dimensions and sandbagged to a specific weight. Not a caravan in sight.
My idea is not that they test people, and it would not be limited to the clubs. What they would do is put people through a towing course and issue a certificate to say it had been completed. I am not convinced the current test is of any real use other than to show that people knnow the basics, and if they have been towing at under 3,500 kg for some time it is probably useless.
It is not going to make people better drivers, as the current crop of idiot car drivers on the road shows, they have passed a test to drive a car and once passed do as they like.
I'm sorry Ray,
To use your words
"What they would do is put people through a towing course and issue a certificate to say it had been completed."
If I take your description face value, then by simply attending the complete course, a candidate would get a certificate. If it's only a "certificate of attendance" it has absolutely no value, it shows no proof of the candidate's understanding or competency.
But if you mean by " it had been completed" that the candidate has been judged to have understood and certain procedures and been able demonstrated them to an acceptable level, and by inference that if the candidate failed to demonstrate sufficient understanding and ability the certificate would not be issued, that is by definition a TEST!
If the Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency (DVSA) required such a certificate before awarding +E then there would require evidence that all the certificates issued represented a consistent approach to the evaluation of candidates, and they would be specifying Specific or Key Performance Indicators (SPI or KPI) on which candidates need to be judged.
Who does the judging? - The DVSA would them have to introduce an inspection service to verify the performance of the various awarding bodies to evaluate proficiency of course delivery and consistency of candidate measurement.
Taking this further, there would have to be some sort of appeals procedure, if there is a problem with the issuing of a certificate, which again adds a level of complexity.
Suddenly we may as well have the DVSA undertaking the candidate assessment just as if it were an official test.
Sorry but your suggestion simply would not work.
Even before 1998 The Caravan Club , as was, were offering comprehensive towing courses. The course lasts one and half days . It is not solely related to driving. My wife did it years ago. The very detailed book she was given, which formed the backbone of the course, taught me a lot too.
The course obviously assumes you are a qualified driver in the first place.
The current towing test is in 6 parts:
The test focuses at least 50% on understanding the correct attachment of the caravan, mirrors. Testing lights hitch etc. Reversing is probably the most difficult for the novice. General driving is making sure your road position for all manoeuvres is correct. Anticipation and not driving into the hazard.
I will be doing this myself with my son very soon.
I have to disagree Prof and on the whole support Ray’s suggestion. The Club’s course is the most professional one available. Irrespective of the wording of their certificate of completion or competence they will not be slow in coming forward telling you ,you
are a failure.
This course is not cheap , but will attract people who genuinely care.
I taught myself back in the 70s so what the heck. Ray’s idea does have some provenance.
The course obviously assumes you are a qualified driver in the first place.
The current towing test is in 6 parts:
- an eyesight check
- ‘show me, tell me’ vehicle safety questions
- reversing your vehicle
- general driving ability
- independent driving
- uncoupling and recoupling the trailer
The test focuses at least 50% on understanding the correct attachment of the caravan, mirrors. Testing lights hitch etc. Reversing is probably the most difficult for the novice. General driving is making sure your road position for all manoeuvres is correct. Anticipation and not driving into the hazard.
I will be doing this myself with my son very soon.
I have to disagree Prof and on the whole support Ray’s suggestion. The Club’s course is the most professional one available. Irrespective of the wording of their certificate of completion or competence they will not be slow in coming forward telling you ,you
are a failure.
This course is not cheap , but will attract people who genuinely care.
I taught myself back in the 70s so what the heck. Ray’s idea does have some provenance.
I'm sorry Dusty, but It won't becasue of the reasons I outlined above.
I have heard some very good things about the club courses, and I certainly hope they will continue, but these are designed to meet the needs of caravanners, and whilst many of the road going issues would be the same for all trailers, the bias towards caravans would not make the courses suitable for all trailer users.
You say "
Irrespective of the wording of their certificate of completion or competence they will not be slow in coming forward telling you , you are a failure".
That is an oxymoron, If the wording of a certificate is so flexible that it allows it to be issued even when a candidate has failed required testing, what is the certificate actually telling anyone?
Ultimately its a moot argument as the Gov't has apparently decided to withdraw the +E test
I have heard some very good things about the club courses, and I certainly hope they will continue, but these are designed to meet the needs of caravanners, and whilst many of the road going issues would be the same for all trailers, the bias towards caravans would not make the courses suitable for all trailer users.
You say "
Irrespective of the wording of their certificate of completion or competence they will not be slow in coming forward telling you , you are a failure".
That is an oxymoron, If the wording of a certificate is so flexible that it allows it to be issued even when a candidate has failed required testing, what is the certificate actually telling anyone?
Ultimately its a moot argument as the Gov't has apparently decided to withdraw the +E test
With respect to passing the B+E test and not the CC towing course, I am not sure how any of the above would improve safety on the roads especially motorways? It seems to relate mainly if you are on a site.
All drivers need to do an eyesight test. All drivers have to pass a written test to get the L driving licence. It is unlikely any will be reversing a trailer down any road never mind a motorway and how many accidents have there been with someone reversing a trailer down the road? Whether a B or B+E your driving ability is still going to be the same.
Taking all the above into account with the exception of uncoupling and coupling I am not sure how it will improve safety on the road around the country? However the issue with coupling and uncoupling could happen with a B licence only driver. Granted any driving course does have some benefits even if it is a refresher.
What is in the B+E test that helps improve safety on the roads?
Ultimately its a moot argument as the Gov't has apparently decided to withdraw the +E test
What is in the B+E test that helps improve safety on the roads?
Thank Prof and Buckman.
Your above sentences admirably précis everything.
I never considered the B+E test brought anything to the table . Other than Club courses most on here are self taught.
Going forward anyone wanting to start caravanning would be hard pushed to beat a Club course and taking the Institute of Advanced Motorists test, based on the Police Roadcraft system.
What is in the B+E test that helps improve safety on the roads?
Thank Prof and Buckman.
Your above sentences admirably précis everything.
I never considered the B+E test brought anything to the table . Other than Club courses most on here are self taught.
Going forward anyone wanting to start caravanning would be hard pushed to beat a Club course and taking the Institute of Advanced Motorists test, based on the Police Roadcraft system.
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