B+E automatic?

[ProfJohnL]

....

I never considered the B+E test brought anything to the table . Other than Club courses most on here are self taught.
Going forward anyone wanting to start caravanning would be hard pushed to beat a Club course and taking the Institute of Advanced Motorists test, based on the Police Roadcraft system.

Now I do basically agree with these comments, I do also think it brought some new awareness of the differences between driving solo and when towing, which drivers might not otherwise known about their importance or even legal standing.

Things like:-
Safe hitching,
Loading inc Nose load
Changes to speed limits,
Tyres
Awareness of the additional size and reduced performance, when accelerating turning and braking.
Which lanes you can use and when,
Lights
Mirrors.

We know from this forum there are some many tugger's of all ages and sizes who demonstrate their lack of skill or awareness on the roads and have been talking points here. Some will have been driving since before 1997 . other after, some a B only licence, others may have taken the +E extension.

There are so many shortcomings of the present driving licence system. It seems crazy that as a learner you are not allowed on the motorways, so you never recieve motorway driving instruction, yet as soon as you have your basic driving licence your allowed to use them, towing is another example. and there must be many other similar failures of the basic licence training and indeed other more advanced licence's also.

At the risk of being shunned by everyone, I actually believe that new drivers should only be allowed to use a solo vehicle on non motorways, and not allowed to tow until that have taken additional training and passed appropriate tests. It would also require the driver to display on the car some means of identifying the licence they hold. and it would be an offence not too or to display the wrong one.

TIme to duck!

 

[Buckman]

Hmm. A test to take your garden trailer to the local dump. I don't think so. LOL!

 

[otherclive]

Now I do basically agree with these comments, I do also think it brought some new awareness of the differences between driving solo and when towing, which drivers might not otherwise known about their importance or even legal standing.

Things like:-
Safe hitching,
Loading inc Nose load
Changes to speed limits,
Tyres
Awareness of the additional size and reduced performance, when accelerating turning and braking.
Which lanes you can use and when,
Lights
Mirrors.

We know from this forum there are some many tugger's of all ages and sizes who demonstrate their lack of skill or awareness on the roads and have been talking points here. Some will have been driving since before 1997 . other after, some a B only licence, others may have taken the +E extension.

There are so many shortcomings of the present driving licence system. It seems crazy that as a learner you are not allowed on the motorways, so you never recieve motorway driving instruction, yet as soon as you have your basic driving licence your allowed to use them, towing is another example. and there must be many other similar failures of the basic licence training and indeed other more advanced licence's also.

At the risk of being shunned by everyone, I actually believe that new drivers should only be allowed to use a solo vehicle on non motorways, and not allowed to tow until that have taken additional training and passed appropriate tests. It would also require the driver to display on the car some means of identifying the licence they hold. and it would be an offence not too or to display the wrong one.

TIme to duck!

Prof
Learner drivers have been allowed on motorways since June 2018. They must be accompanied by a licensed instructor. I think it should be a mandatory part of the training leading up to the driving test. Difficult maybe for those in northern Scotland , west Wales or Cornwall but that’s life.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/learner-drivers-will-be-allowed-on-motorways-from-2018

 

[Dustydog]

I agree Prof, You won’t be shunned by me so don’t duck😵‍💫😵‍💫

BTW learner drivers , accompanied by a full licence instructor qualified person, have been allowed to drive on motorways since the 4th June 2018.
The real problem is the test itself. Learners are taught to pass the test , not control the vehicle.The test is so basic it amazes me we haven’t had more accidents. IMO the test should be based on the IAM Roadcraft level of competence. Virtually the same level as a class one police driver, including the verbal running commentary.
I‘ll duck now🤪🤪

 

[CustardAvenger]

As someone who did the test, the reversing portion is identical to tests performed for C1, C & CE. You reverse round a cone and have to get the the trailer into a bay with the rear end in a certain zone.

The show me/tell me is a complete waste of time, it just confirms sky is blue and water is wet.

The unhitching and re-hitching it to prove you are competent to safely hitch-up to trailer you may never have seen before. (I still perform the same process when hitching the caravan today).

The driving portion is the hard bit. Nearly an hour of driving round Birmingham under test conditions. The training i paid for was well worth it for the reversing coaching and general driving with a trailer.

There has never been a requirement to test for small trailers as there is a caveat which allows 3500KG vehicles to be driven by 'B' licence holders and tow max 750KG trailers.

 

[otherclive]

I agree Prof, You won’t be shunned by me so don’t duck😵‍💫😵‍💫

BTW learner drivers , accompanied by a full licence instructor qualified person, have been allowed to drive on motorways since the 4th June 2018.
The real problem is the test itself. Learners are taught to pass the test , not control the vehicle.The test is so basic it amazes me we haven’t had more accidents. IMO the test should be based on the IAM Roadcraft level of competence. Virtually the same level as a class one police driver, including the verbal running commentary.
I‘ll duck now🤪🤪

I really cannot conceive that new drivers should have to reach the level of a Class 1 police driver including running commentary. When I had police instruction I was told that a lot of candidates are dropped because they are not at ease with high speed driving, or not good at the commentary. But they can still go on to become good drivers. Given that there are more cars than ever on the roads and the current testing regime has run in parallel with a reduction in fatalities and critical injuries, whilst cars have become safer, what is it that influences you to recommend such a big step change in standards?

What I would support is more police presence on the roads.

 

[Parksy]

Some interesting points are being raised here, but what happened before the B+E requirement was introduced?
Were there multitudes of wrecked caravans littering the highways and byways of Britain, or did drivers who towed touring caravans exercise a degree of caution when towing in order to avoid accidents and to protect their automotive investment?
There is much more easily accessible information about everything on the internet than was available to the average person not too long ago, and towing safety is no exception.
One would have to be a special kind of stupid for a driver not to notice the difference betwen towing a caravan or driving solo.
Despite the cessation of the B+E test, I don't foresee a dramatic rise in accidents involving touring caravans.

 

[RogerL]

There are so many shortcomings of the present driving licence system. It seems crazy that as a learner you are not allowed on the motorways, so you never receive motorway driving instruction, yet as soon as you have your basic driving licence your allowed to use them, towing is another example. and there must be many other similar failures of the basic licence training and indeed other more advanced licence's also.

That's been overcome already - learners are now permitted to drive on motorways under supervision of an ADI instructor - drivers who have passed their car test have always been able to drive on motorways as learners in other groups, obviously when supervised by a suitably qualified driver.

 

[Gafferbill]

I passed my UK car test at the age of 18.
Back then, when you had your 21st birthday, you were automatically licenced to drive any HGV.
No training. ..no test ...nothing! .......there was only the age requirement.

Hope no one in government reads this

 

[Buckman]

I really cannot conceive that new drivers should have to reach the level of a Class 1 police driver including running commentary. When I had police instruction I was told that a lot of candidates are dropped because they are not at ease with high speed driving, or not good at the commentary. But they can still go on to become good drivers. Given that there are more cars than ever on the roads and the current testing regime has run in parallel with a reduction in fatalities and critical injuries, whilst cars have become safer, what is it that influences you to recommend such a big step change in standards?

What I would support is more police presence on the roads.

After the police driving course which lasted a week we had to write parts of the book and you would lose points for poor spelling etc. On the commentary side it can be difficult when travelling at close to 100mph, but general speed was about 60mph. On returning to base several beers to cure the thirst. LOL!

 

[Dustydog]

I really cannot conceive that new drivers should have to reach the level of a Class 1 police driver including running commentary. When I had police instruction I was told that a lot of candidates are dropped because they are not at ease with high speed driving, or not good at the commentary. But they can still go on to become good drivers. Given that there are more cars than ever on the roads and the current testing regime has run in parallel with a reduction in fatalities and critical injuries, whilst cars have become safer, what is it that influences you to recommend such a big step change in standards?

What I would support is more police presence on the roads.

The point is that the current test level is hopelessly inadequate.

 

[Hutch]

I know one thing, I am fine reversing my Longish Coachman, I would make a right hash of reversing a short trailer.

 

[otherclive]

I read that although the trailer tests for BE were stopped on 20 September DVSA haven’t yet announced the new law is in place. That leaves uncertainty to a drivers status, which strictly would mean it’s still illegal to tow a combined mass plated mass exceeding 3500 kg unless accompanied etc. Well actually no uncertainty. If the new law isn’t in place it is illegal to break the existing law. You couldn’t make it up.

 

[Dustydog]

Typical HMG faff.
As Clive says Tests for the category B + E (car + trailer) category will cease on 20 September 2021 and the new changes will come into effect in the autumn. The exact date has not yet been confirmed.
Weird! No actual effective date yet🙀🙀🙀

 

[ProfJohnL]

AS I suggested previously, until this sort of thing actually happens, don't assume anything.

 

[Raywood]

There has been opposition to it mainly from people who do not understand the subject and those making money from the training. I saw one person thought the training would stop people towing at 70 mph, needs to think more clearly, as if he was right we would all drive to the speed limit. Frankly if a driver has been towing at under 3,500 kg for some time moving above this should not be a problem, although I do have doubts about those who start out with a big twin axle.

 

[Buckman]

Frankly if a driver has been towing at under 3,500 kg for some time moving above this should not be a problem, although I do have doubts about those who start out with a big twin axle.

For a newbie a twin axle is properly easier to handle than a single axle? Our first caravan was a single axle and we had it for about 4-6 weeks. Second one was a single axle which we had for about 6 months. Had twin ever since.

 

[Fraseb01]

I agree, back in the day when i started towing, the larger trailers either twin or single were much better to start with.👍

 

[ProfJohnL]

It's the length and load balance of a caravan that most radically affects handling, not the number of axles.

The longer a caravan is the axle will be further away from the hitch, which tends to reduce the instantaneous sideways forces that a caravan will apply to a car. Generally TA's are longer caravans and will conform to the point I made.

 

[Dustydog]

Here’s the latest from HMG on driving licences and towing.

​ GOV.UK

​

​

	Daily update from GOV.UK for: Towing New rules for towing a trailer with a car from 15 November 2021 Page summary: There will be new rules about towing a trailer or caravan with a car from 15 November 2021. Find out how the changes affect you. Change made: Updated to confirm that the rules will change on 15 November 2021, subject to Parliamentary approval. Time updated: 3:29pm, 19 October 2021 Why am I getting this email? You asked GOV.UK to send you one email a day about: Towing

 

[Dustydog]

New caravan rules changes set to come into effect next week are delayed by DVSA..

Another U turn! Who makes these things up?

 

[Dustydog]

Didnt realise that the delay from 15 Nov had been deferred another week then U turned again.

Re your post #14. Should we be getting worried about you wanting to receive a daily email about Towing from HMG?

Relax. They haven’t sent me any emails👏👏👏
Apparently a large number of people have invested in caravans and Motorhomes in the expectation the new Law would come into force on the 15 .11.21. My son is one of them, all tow barred and no where to go😥.
I wonder why the DVLA are dithering? No indication that tests will be reinstated.

 

[Raywood]

It is not the DVLA but the government. The final vote has been put back until the end of the year. Possibly your son jumped the gun a bit as the change was always subject to parliament passing the change and there was never any guarantee of that.

 

[otherclive]

Relax. They haven’t sent me any emails👏👏👏
Apparently a large number of people have invested in caravans and Motorhomes in the expectation the new Law would come into force on the 15 .11.21. My son is one of them, all tow barred and no where to go😥.
I wonder why the DVLA are dithering? No indication that tests will be reinstated.

Its because two years ago they undertook to see how trailer accidents which were predominantly caused by human error could be reduced. They have done very little that has been put out for consultation. The Commons All Party Committee produced a very good report on accidents involving trailers. Trailers encompassed the whole spectrum from HGV to little ones. Various bodies submitted data the report. It was a very good report and one major conclusion was that mechanical failure, or tyre failure were not principal causes of accidents and trailer registration schemes and "MoT" gave virtually no cost benefit for the large expense incurred in introducing such system. But human errors were seen as the more important cause. The scope and depth of the report may surprise those who say nothing has been done to see what statistics and evidence are available for trailer accidents. The report scotches that one.

I posted link to it in one of the earlier posts (10) on the thread " New Rules for drivers.......". It is copied below. DVLA/DVSA have come under some pressure as this move to alleviate the shortage of HGV drivers has been seen by some as a U turn on their undertakings given to the All Party report.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...40182/trailer-safety-statutory-report-web.pdf

 

[Dustydog]

It is not the DVLA but the government. The final vote has been put back until the end of the year. Possibly your son jumped the gun a bit as the change was always subject to parliament passing the change and there was never any guarantee of that.

Agreed Ray. He was always going to take the test before the new proposals came in so it made sense to get his car organised. For now there no tests nor changes. All in a limbo.