Hi so I recently decided to look in to buying a caravan but as said in the last post my car car only tow 850kg... With your help I found I should be OK if I can find a van light enough anyways I found 1 I am quite keen on that I am going to see tommorow it's quite old I'm guessing late 80s (almost looks vintage) it's a sprite alpine 4 i am almost sure unladen weight is about 650-700 kg bug I don't know what the laden weight is my main question isif the laden weight is say 900kg is it legal to tow it with only 50-100kg in it (it would only ever be 2 pepole traveling lightly) or is it illegal to tow anything with a gross weight over the max capacity of the car even if it's never laden. Secondly are there any other important things to check I know it has no damp and am taking a meter to be sure I hope it's legal to tow though asim quite keen on it! Thanks
Buying advice and Towing laws
- Thread starter Modcon
- Start date
Damian
Moderator
The simple answer is NO, you cannot tow it under your suggested thought.
The figures needed are the car max towing capacity and the MTPLM of the van.
You cannot rely on the unladen weight, especially as you do not know what the unladen, (or mass In running order) weight is.
Late Edit: Having looked quickly at the Sprite range of vans the lightest I found was 875Kg
The figures needed are the car max towing capacity and the MTPLM of the van.
You cannot rely on the unladen weight, especially as you do not know what the unladen, (or mass In running order) weight is.
Late Edit: Having looked quickly at the Sprite range of vans the lightest I found was 875Kg
Hi yeah im finding the exact weigths out tommorow the 650-700 isnt a guess exactly the seller said it was one or the other but didnt know the laden weight but it is on the plate. But say it is (without a doubt) 650 mass in running order with a laden weight of 900 i still cant legaly toe it? Even if when im toeing it its certainly weighing less (so its like an legal tecnicality)?
Yeah i did look on that giverment website but it was a bit unclear ot says something like its ilegal to tow more than the max train weight but didnt say if this was the theoretical max weight (ie the max shown on the weight plate of the car and caravn) or its actual particaly loaded weight
Damian
Moderator
The problem you have is that you are pushing the limits of what is an unsuitable car for towing.
You would need to weigh the van every time you intended to tow it to ensure you stay under the car limit, and should you go over that figure your Insurance would be void.
VOSA only use the plated weights, so you could fall foul of them.
You would need to weigh the van every time you intended to tow it to ensure you stay under the car limit, and should you go over that figure your Insurance would be void.
VOSA only use the plated weights, so you could fall foul of them.
Hello again Modcon,
The way the law is written, the car has a maximum towed weight figure which should not be exceeded. As you point out the cars limit does no thave to be the same as the trailers MTPLM. In fact the the car can tow a trailer with a much larger MTPLM than it's permitted max towed load, provided the trailer's actual weight is within the cars capacity.
Its even more generous than that, because the a trailer has two load elements, the weight carried by its road wheels (Axle load) and the nose load. Strictly speaking the car's towed load is only the load carried by the trailers wheels, and that leaves the trailers nose load, which technically is carried (not towed) by the tow vehicle.
This means provided you counterbalance the caravan to produce a nose load of 50kg, you can then tow a trailer with and axle load of 850kg, and when added together that give s a trailers total mass of 900kg
So technically I believe you could tow your proposed outfit, but how you ensure these strict and very tight limits are maintained to remain legal is very difficult.
There is another consideration which you should not ignore. The towing compatibility report that was shown in your earlier thread raised serious concerns about the cars brakes under towing condition, and that is one of your most important safety systems.
Whilst I may disagree with Damian about the cars towed weight. I have to agree with him concerning the cars suitability. For both yours, and everyone around you 's safety I recommend you consider a more capable tow car.
The way the law is written, the car has a maximum towed weight figure which should not be exceeded. As you point out the cars limit does no thave to be the same as the trailers MTPLM. In fact the the car can tow a trailer with a much larger MTPLM than it's permitted max towed load, provided the trailer's actual weight is within the cars capacity.
Its even more generous than that, because the a trailer has two load elements, the weight carried by its road wheels (Axle load) and the nose load. Strictly speaking the car's towed load is only the load carried by the trailers wheels, and that leaves the trailers nose load, which technically is carried (not towed) by the tow vehicle.
This means provided you counterbalance the caravan to produce a nose load of 50kg, you can then tow a trailer with and axle load of 850kg, and when added together that give s a trailers total mass of 900kg
So technically I believe you could tow your proposed outfit, but how you ensure these strict and very tight limits are maintained to remain legal is very difficult.
There is another consideration which you should not ignore. The towing compatibility report that was shown in your earlier thread raised serious concerns about the cars brakes under towing condition, and that is one of your most important safety systems.
Whilst I may disagree with Damian about the cars towed weight. I have to agree with him concerning the cars suitability. For both yours, and everyone around you 's safety I recommend you consider a more capable tow car.
I attach a reply on a similar subject from the C&CC forum posted by an Officer involved in checking caravans. This does not agree entirely with the answer from the Prof and I certainly thought that it was illegal to tow if the maximum laden weight of the tow car and the MTPLM of the caravan exceeded the gross train weight whatever the actual weight of the caravan, I was sure I had seen this on the CC web site but could not find it again when I looked. In this case I suspect that the actual weight of the caravan would have to be used as getting the MTPLM without a plate on the caravan showing this might be very difficult for the Police. Anyway read on:
Hi, if it helps I can outline how the UK agencies handle such matters with trailer weights. As I have worked alongside the Midlands motorway traffic police and (formerly) VOSA officers with operation Velopy.
Firstly the patrol needs a reason to pull you over, this could be a lack of towing mirrors, badly/incorrectly displayed registration plate and numerous other similar things.
Once stopped the police run a series of checks on registration, tax, insurance, licence and CRiS etc. The VOSA team look at the integrity of the combination. They also check the VIN for the weight limits and then weight he axles in turn. The sum of the axle weights must be with the train mass limit on the VIN and no axle or tyre is to be overloaded. (this applies to B+E licence holders, B licence as mentioned are capped to a maximum combined mass of 3500kg). If the weigh-pads suggest overloading they can recommend an adjustment of the load to improve things, if they believe it is grossly overloaded they have the power for a prohibition order or have you escorted to a fully calibrated weighbridge for possible prosecution evidence gathering (rare thankfully).
Thus from the above process you can see that a caravan that has an mtplm just over the towing limit may be acceptable as long as you're prepared to under-load and you have a B+E licence. With a B licence it is what's on the VIN plate what counts.
We strongly recommend you use Towsafe for matching, it is the most comprehensive database and there's a real human being behind it trying to keep it as good as possible.
For those who're struggling understanding the difference between B licence and B+E we have a very comprehensive datasheet and flowchart right here .
As for the above comment, "For instance, although either of the big clubs suggest a 80% towing weight figure, there are quite a few 4x4 manufacturers such as Land Rover who suggest you can tow at well over 100%."
We recommend an 85% weight match for beginners and to never go over 100%. As for towing limit, this is locked down in the type-approval process and I don't want to bore you with that and how some car figures are so high and other so low.
Hi, if it helps I can outline how the UK agencies handle such matters with trailer weights. As I have worked alongside the Midlands motorway traffic police and (formerly) VOSA officers with operation Velopy.
Firstly the patrol needs a reason to pull you over, this could be a lack of towing mirrors, badly/incorrectly displayed registration plate and numerous other similar things.
Once stopped the police run a series of checks on registration, tax, insurance, licence and CRiS etc. The VOSA team look at the integrity of the combination. They also check the VIN for the weight limits and then weight he axles in turn. The sum of the axle weights must be with the train mass limit on the VIN and no axle or tyre is to be overloaded. (this applies to B+E licence holders, B licence as mentioned are capped to a maximum combined mass of 3500kg). If the weigh-pads suggest overloading they can recommend an adjustment of the load to improve things, if they believe it is grossly overloaded they have the power for a prohibition order or have you escorted to a fully calibrated weighbridge for possible prosecution evidence gathering (rare thankfully).
Thus from the above process you can see that a caravan that has an mtplm just over the towing limit may be acceptable as long as you're prepared to under-load and you have a B+E licence. With a B licence it is what's on the VIN plate what counts.
We strongly recommend you use Towsafe for matching, it is the most comprehensive database and there's a real human being behind it trying to keep it as good as possible.
For those who're struggling understanding the difference between B licence and B+E we have a very comprehensive datasheet and flowchart right here .
As for the above comment, "For instance, although either of the big clubs suggest a 80% towing weight figure, there are quite a few 4x4 manufacturers such as Land Rover who suggest you can tow at well over 100%."
We recommend an 85% weight match for beginners and to never go over 100%. As for towing limit, this is locked down in the type-approval process and I don't want to bore you with that and how some car figures are so high and other so low.
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