Can a brand new caravan be sold with a repaired tyre?

[Surfer]

Yesterday we had a mobile techinician service our 2 year old
caravan which is a Lunar Delta TI. As part of the service the tyres are
removed and checked.

On checking the tyres it was discovered that there was a bung in one
of the tyres indicating that at soem point in the past, the tyre had
been punctured. This obviously happened prior to purchase of the new
caravan.

This also indicates that at the last service the caravan tyres were
not checked properly. Can a brand new caravan be sold with a "repaired"
tyre?

BTW Year of manufacture of the tyre was 2009 and caravan is a 2011 caravan?

 

[otherclive]

Th etyres may have been checked at the last service and whoever did the check might not consider that a properly repaired puncture was an issue. The technician may have thought you had had the tyre repaired. But as far as a new van having a tyre with a puncture repair I think that is a distinct NoNo and shows the dealer ina bad light. But again it may have happened during shipping to the dealer as it was moved from the makers line to the shipping vehicle or whilst being moved by the shipper. Dealer PDI wouldnt pick up such a repair necessarily.

 

[Surfer]

Th etyres may have been checked at the last service and whoever did the check might not consider that a properly repaired puncture was an issue. The technician may have thought you had had the tyre repaired. But as far as a new van having a tyre with a puncture repair I think that is a distinct NoNo and shows the dealer ina bad light. But again it may have happened during shipping to the dealer as it was moved from the makers line to the shipping vehicle or whilst being moved by the shipper. Dealer PDI wouldnt pick up such a repair necessarily.

My thoughts exactly and I wouldn't expect the dealer to pickup the repaired tyre on hand over. However I thought there would be a note of the bung on the service in 2012 unless they never checked the tyres properly. Also at the same time last year I had the tyres balanced. If they had checked the tyres against the service manual it should have been noted that the tyre pressure was 36psi maximum as opposed to the 42psi stated in the service manual.

 

[TonyG]

Th etyres may have been checked at the last service and whoever did the check might not consider that a properly repaired puncture was an issue. The technician may have thought you had had the tyre repaired. But as far as a new van having a tyre with a puncture repair I think that is a distinct NoNo and shows the dealer ina bad light. But again it may have happened during shipping to the dealer as it was moved from the makers line to the shipping vehicle or whilst being moved by the shipper. Dealer PDI wouldnt pick up such a repair necessarily.

My thoughts exactly and I wouldn't expect the dealer to pickup the repaired tyre on hand over. However I thought there would be a note of the bung on the service in 2012 unless they never checked the tyres properly. Also at the same time last year I had the tyres balanced. If they had checked the tyres against the service manual it should have been noted that the tyre pressure was 36psi maximum as opposed to the 42psi stated in the service manual.

far greater concern for me would be that your tyres were 2 years old before they were even fitted to your van... if the recommended replacement is 5 years regardless of tread, potentially you will need 4 new tyres next year

 

[Martin_E]

As far as I understand it......
providing the the tyre is stored correctly by the caravan manufacture (used as an example) prior to fitting then the 5 years (maximum 7 years) start from when the tyre is fitted. I would say though if I didn't know the history of the van/tyres then I would go by the date stamped on the side wall.

the puncture could be a simple case that the service agent had two vans the same in with the same wheels and they got mixed during the service who knows.

 

[otherclive]

As far as I understand it......
providing the the tyre is stored correctly by the caravan manufacture (used as an example) prior to fitting then the 5 years (maximum 7 years) start from when the tyre is fitted. I would say though if I didn't know the history of the van/tyres then I would go by the date stamped on the side wall.

the puncture could be a simple case that the service agent had two vans the same in with the same wheels and they got mixed during the service who knows.

How does the owner know when the tyre was fitted? It has to be referenced back to date of manufacture, but you are correct in that van tyre should last for 7 years from DoM provided they are looked after. Ie reduced UV expsoure, correct inflation, not stood for long periods, removed during lay-up (if practicable) well inflated during storage etc, regular inspection for groove, tread and sidewall cracking/damage.

 

[Martin_E]

Clive,
this is where the problem lies, customers don't know the history of their tyres prior to getting their caravan/Motorhome, but the manufacturer would, so this would be why they can put tyres that are two years old on the vehicle. As consumers or engineers we go by the date stamped in the tyre as it is a known timeline, but in theory the life could be longer.

 

[otherclive]

Clive,
this is where the problem lies, customers don't know the history of their tyres prior to getting their caravan/Motorhome, but the manufacturer would, so this would be why they can put tyres that are two years old on the vehicle. As consumers or engineers we go by the date stamped in the tyre as it is a known timeline, but in theory the life could be longer.

Martin
sorry but I dont quite understand your reasoning. Surely if the date of manufacture stamp on the tyre is moulded into the sidewall when the tyre is made how can 'the life be longer'? Are you saying that we could take tyres beyond 7 years, which irrespective of any advice from the Clubs, or Industry I would be loathe to consider. I always used to change my car spare within 7 years even though it was never used and shielded from UV.

 

[RogerL]

Tyres don't suddenly disintegrate on their 7th birthday - while some won't last that long before deteriorating other will last longer than that - 7 years is a timescale considered sensible by tyre engineers to change caravan tyres.
It should perhaps be noted that very few non-caravanners in the UK have even heard of the 7-year guideline - it's equally relevant for the low wearing rear tyres of modern fwd cars, especially if they're low mileage as many 7-year old cars are - it may trigger an advisory at MoT time but the external examination takes precedence.

You do all realise that 5-7 year-old but barely worn caravan tyres, taken off when new tyres are fitted, go back into the UK supply chain as part-worn tyres for subsequent fitment to cars and vans - don't you?

 

[otherclive]

I apreciate that 5/7 years are only a guideline but its a sensible one, and whilst tyres dont drop off a cliff after 7 years the van tyres are more heavily loaded than car tyres and dont have the benefits if a good suspension system. I cannot understand why fwd cars should have rear tyres older than seven years unless the cars total mileage is very low, as when I change front tyres the rears get brought to the front and the new ones go onto the back. I always change the car tyres at 3mm as with a less tread depth your wet braking and handling is compromised, and winter traction suffers.

 

[Martin_E]

What at I am saying is that in theory if the tyre is stored correctly (there is a time limit for shelved tyres not sure what it is though) then the start date is when first fitted, although common sence when servicing would say change them at or before 7 years as it is not worth risking the unit or even worse a life for the sake of £60

Clive,
this is where the problem lies, customers don't know the history of their tyres prior to getting their caravan/Motorhome, but the manufacturer would, so this would be why they can put tyres that are two years old on the vehicle. As consumers or engineers we go by the date stamped in the tyre as it is a known timeline, but in theory the life could be longer.

Martin
sorry but I dont quite understand your reasoning. Surely if the date of manufacture stamp on the tyre is moulded into the sidewall when the tyre is made how can 'the life be longer'? Are you saying that we could take tyres beyond 7 years, which irrespective of any advice from the Clubs, or Industry I would be loathe to consider. I always used to change my car spare within 7 years even though it was never used and shielded from UV.

 

[RogerL]

I apreciate that 5/7 years are only a guideline but its a sensible one, and whilst tyres dont drop off a cliff after 7 years the van tyres are more heavily loaded than car tyres and dont have the benefits if a good suspension system. I cannot understand why fwd cars should have rear tyres older than seven years unless the cars total mileage is very low, as when I change front tyres the rears get brought to the front and the new ones go onto the back. I always change the car tyres at 3mm as with a less tread depth your wet braking and handling is compromised, and winter traction suffers.

Like you, I always put new tyres on the rear when done in pairs and change at 4mm winter or 3mm summer - but the vast majority of UK motorists don't, they use the tyres until they fail an MoT and just replace in-situ!

 

[RogerL]

Correct storage helps extend the tyre life but doesn't extend the 7-year guideline as deterioration still occurs in storage, just at a slower rate. UV is one of the main causes of deterioration, greatly reduced by storage in the dark - oxidation is the other main cause and it happens all the time, even in storage.

 

[otherclive]

I apreciate that 5/7 years are only a guideline but its a sensible one, and whilst tyres dont drop off a cliff after 7 years the van tyres are more heavily loaded than car tyres and dont have the benefits if a good suspension system. I cannot understand why fwd cars should have rear tyres older than seven years unless the cars total mileage is very low, as when I change front tyres the rears get brought to the front and the new ones go onto the back. I always change the car tyres at 3mm as with a less tread depth your wet braking and handling is compromised, and winter traction suffers.

Like you, I always put new tyres on the rear when done in pairs and change at 4mm winter or 3mm summer - but the vast majority of UK motorists don't, they use the tyres until they fail an MoT and just replace in-situ!

Agreed and thats why winter traction suffers so much, although a lot of modern tyres have very limited snow traction even when new. If the EEC wanted to make an easy to implement saftey regulation just haviing tyres with a minimum tread depth of 3mm would produce far bigger safety gains, at much lower cost and beaurocracy, than any mad cap idea to "MoT" caravans.

 

[RogerL]

There's general technical consensus that the tread depth limit should be changed to 3mm - but getting the necessary political consensus takes longer, especially among the newer EU members.
One thing that doesn't help UK safety is the German domestic rules - they seem to replace at 4mm winter and 3mm summer which is laudable but their "trade-in" tyres seem to find their way to UK as part-worn tyres - not good in my view.

 

[Surfer]

There's general technical consensus that the tread depth limit should be changed to 3mm - but getting the necessary political consensus takes longer, especially among the newer EU members.
One thing that doesn't help UK safety is the German domestic rules - they seem to replace at 4mm winter and 3mm summer which is laudable but their "trade-in" tyres seem to find their way to UK as part-worn tyres - not good in my view.

Many years ago we purchased a car from a relative. Bad move! Anyway a couple of months later and just befroe the MOT, we had a puncture and went to fit the spare only to find that it was flat due to a cut in the sidewall.
My mistake I had trusted the relative too much and just looked at the tyre which had good tread. We then bought a second hand tyre from a dealer for £10 and had it fitted. The car passed the MOT no issue and we traded it in a few months later.
I agree that the part worn tyres is not a good idea but if you are short of cash at least your vehicle is road legal. I suspect many cars get through a MOT with part worn tyres.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The Part worn tyre market is growing at quite a rate. Its driven by consumers looking for what seems to be a good price. Unfortunately the trade is not well regulated, and it seems like a new PWT outlet in our area springs up every month.

They often trade behind a poorly painted frontage, and seem to be staffed by more young men than is necessary, using second hand tyre fitting machines. I seriously wonder if these people have been trained properly to check and fit tyres.

There are some serious concerns about the the safety of some part worn tyres. Trading standards and Police have carries out some joint raids on PWT outlets.

Several fitting stations were visited and several hundred tyres removed as evidence. In the worst cases, a tyre had obviously been run flat (Witnessed by the degradation of the inner side wall to the fabric and compound powder inside the cover, yet it was marked up as fit to be fitted.

The big problem is tyres are subject to very serious wear, and I suspect the majority of consumers are not really aware of how to identify some serious tyre defects. Tyres can be seriously damaged, but the damage is not visible to naked eye when the tyre is fitted to a rim.

Its only fair to say that there must be some entirely satisfactory tyres available, but the big problem is do most consumers have the nous to recognise to good from the bad? and how do you know the back room fitting boys actually fit the tyres you choose when there out of sight round the back of the shop?

And would you trust your safety in the car or the well being of your caravan to what seems to be an expanding and unregulated market?

 

[RogerL]

Yes, it's an issue of regulation - good part-worn tyre outlets will inspect the tyres, internally and externally, before fitment - an examination that doesn't happen part way through the life of tyres bought new so it can be argued that good part-worns are better than leaving existing tyres on when they become part-worn !
Because they're being sold at low prices the temptation for the not-so-good outlets to cut corners is huge.
Increasingly, technical authorities are accepting that the minimum tread depth should be increased to 3mm which may curtail the part-worn trade altogether.

 

[Surfer]

Yes, it's an issue of regulation - good part-worn tyre outlets will inspect the tyres, internally and externally, before fitment - an examination that doesn't happen part way through the life of tyres bought new so it can be argued that good part-worns are better than leaving existing tyres on when they become part-worn !
Because they're being sold at low prices the temptation for the not-so-good outlets to cut corners is huge.
Increasingly, technical authorities are accepting that the minimum tread depth should be increased to 3mm which may curtail the part-worn trade altogether.

If the outlet is paying VAT and taxes the government may not be too keen for these outlets to close due to legislation as ther ewill be a loss in VAT & taxes plus will also create unemployment. A Catch 22 situation for the government!

 

[RogerL]

If the outlet is paying VAT and taxes the government may not be too keen for these outlets to close due to legislation as ther ewill be a loss in VAT & taxes plus will also create unemployment. A Catch 22 situation for the government!

The part-worn tyre trade isn't a big sector of the economy so any loss in taxes, etc will be more than made up by the increased taxation by forcing people to buy new tyres at a higher price.

 

[intransient1]

It would appear that throughout this post the original question seems to have got lost.
The tyre in question has been repaired using what in the trade used to be called a plug.
These were eventually deemed as being unsafe as they could work their way out resulting in a dangerous loss of pressure, and as caravan tyres require higher pressures this is more of an issue.
The tyre fitted was 2 years older than the van, my first question here would be is the other tyre the same age.
I can not imagine that the van manufacturer ordered the amount of tyres that they were still using them 2 years later, besides the storage problems the cost would be prohibitive.
Further investigation or questions need to be made to the dealership regarding this.

 

[otherclive]

It would appear that throughout this post the original question seems to have got lost.
The tyre in question has been repaired using what in the trade used to be called a plug.
These were eventually deemed as being unsafe as they could work their way out resulting in a dangerous loss of pressure, and as caravan tyres require higher pressures this is more of an issue.
The tyre fitted was 2 years older than the van, my first question here would be is the other tyre the same age.
I can not imagine that the van manufacturer ordered the amount of tyres that they were still using them 2 years later, besides the storage problems the cost would be prohibitive.
Further investigation or questions need to be made to the dealership regarding this.

Was the repair effected by just using a 'plug', as modern repairs use a plug that is mouled into a patch. The plug is pulled into the hole from the inside and when fully insetred the patch is in contact with the tyres inner surface which is then vulcanised. From the outside you see the plug stem extending, which is then trimmed off. So visually the two types of repair look the same from the outside. the modern plug-and patch is good for high speed rated tyres given certain constrainst such as proximity to sidewall, or limits on the number of repairs per tyre, or measured distance between repairs.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Getting back to the OP's question:-

SoGA requires new products sold must be free from defects. If a tyre has been repaired it means it must have been faulty at some point in its past life.

If the dealer knew or had reasonable means to establish the condition of the tyres on a new caravan they should not sell tyres with a puncture or a repair on a new caravan.

You should tell you dealer about this as it should concern them, but I'm not sure what it is likely to achieve in this case, Bear in mind that its two years since you had the caravan, and the even though the tyre was repaired, you did not know it to be so and it has not prevented the caravan from being used safely and normally.

Even when you purchased the caravan you had known the tyre had been repaired and you insisted on having it replaced (which is of course your right) you could have suffered a puncture on the road coming away from the dealership which you would have had repaired, and presumably used the caravan without a second thought. So have you suffered a loss of function or value in real terms ? I think the answer is no.

Now I am not condoning the practice of selling repaired tyres as new. Far from it, but I think there has to be a sense of realism here. Whilst you are certain you have not had the tyre repaired, and that is why you believe the tyre was repaired before you purchased it, you problem may be proving that to be the case.

As you have not suffered a loss as a result of the repair what is there to be gained by pursuing a case of which there is no certainty of success.

Even if you were successful what would be fair remedy? The tyre is now two years old from purchase, so a new tyre is not a fair option, The tyre has already been repaired apparently successfully so no further repair is called for. So all that is left is compensation. The only loss you have suffered is the difference in value at the time between a brand new tyre and the value of the repaired tyre, Who can value a repaired tyre?

I have to say there are several different points in the supply chain where the tyre could have collected a puncture and a repair made, of which the dealer may genuinely have no knowledge of its occurrence. Even though the dealer may be innocent of having the repair carried out, SoGA makes it very clear that the seller is legally responsible for defects in goods they sell.

I think telling the dealer of the issue is necessary (because they need to be aware of the issue and the fact it has been detected all be it 2 years on) But bearing in mind the facts of the case as presented here, and unless this forms part of a larger issue with the dealer, in my opinion, demanding some form of compensation is going to muddy the water. Hopefully and assuming the dealer is basically honest, they could offer some goodwill gesture of some sort, perhaps money off a service, or a discount on a purchase from their shop.

As consumers we do need to vigilant, and dealers need to understand the legal responsibilities they have when selling goods, and the buying public is becoming increasingly savvy about their statutory rights and how to use them.

 

[Surfer]

John, the whole issue revolves around proof. I cannot prove that we have never had the tyre repaired. However the wear is consistent with the rest of the tread. At the moment the caravan is sitting at the dealership pending release subject to the heating issue being repaired or modified and a further inspection by an independent engineer.