Caravan charger/ psu /battery problems

[BigTim]

Hi

Further to my earlier posts regarding problems with the caravan/battery on our Bailey Senator Arizona (2006/5 Series) while we were away at Keswick CCC.

We got home yesterday and I put the caravan battery on charge on my Halfords Automatic charger for 20+ hours. The charger indicator was showing the battery as fully charged and on "maintenance" after this period. I then took the battery off charge and left it for 4+ hours and I am now getting a reading of 13.4v on my multimeter so the battery seems to be holding the charge okay.
However with the caravan hooked up to the mains there is now a zero reading from the battery terminals in the battery compartment, with no battery connected. In that state the 240v items - microwave, fridge, etc work but the 12v ones don't. I've checked the caravan fuses on the front of the psu/charger unit in the 'van and the battery one is okay.
I've, also, removed the cover of the psu as someone previously suggested the main lead can become detached - it wasn't, in fact someone has secured it place with a cable tie! There are no other obvious fuses in the psu or between it and the battery box so it looks as though there is a problem with the psu itself.

I'd appreciate any helpful comments before I call out the mobile service engineer.

Thanks
Tim

 

[Beehpee]

Hi, this is probably so obvious I am reluctant to even suggest it, on my van the charger has an on/off switch, I don't know if all chargers have the same facility but has yours got a switch and if so I am assuming you've checked it is actually switched on, I know that the location of mine means it would be easy for it to get switched off accidentally with all the gear that gets piled in the cupboard where the charger is, as I say bit too obvious but sometimes it's the obvious that gets overlooked, good luck getting it sorted anyway.

 

[BigTim]

Thanks for replying Beehpee I agree that the the simple answers are easily overlooked. However, unfortunately on this occasion I think I've covered all of those as I spent a lot of time trying to solve the problems whilst we were away in Keswick. The PSU on the Senator does not seem to have a switch.
Thanks again
Tim

 

[BigTim]

Hi Folks

Forgive me if these are stupid musings but I would be grateful if anyone could check my "logic".

I've now re-installed the charged battery in the battery box, 12v systems are now working again with and without the mains ehu connected. All switches and relevant fuses on the PSU front panel have been checked.

Mains is connected as far as the PSU/Charger in the 'van as the elcbs on the PSU front panel are operative. I, also tested and found a live supply just behind the PSU - at an inline push-together connector on the mains lead near to where it enters the PSU.

Presumably the 12v supply from the battery goes through the PSU to the 12v system using the same wires from the battery terminals as the recharging current from the PSU going to the battery. So if the battery is not charging from the PSU the PSU must have failed. If there was a disconnection between the PSU and the battery, rather than a PSU fault, surely the 12v from the battery would not be reaching the 12v system.

Is there any way that the 12v current could be flowing from the battery to the PSU but not back from the PSU to recharge the batter, other than a PSU failure?

Is my "logic" correct, I'm no electrical expert!, the PSU must have failed.

Comments please!!

 

[Reg]

Although I don't know the charging circuit used in caravans as a starting point I would put an ammeter in the positive (i.e.IN SERIES) line going to the battery. If you can get hold of one from a breakers yard from an old car this would be ideal.
Then you can see what is really going on. If something is draining the battery it would show up

By the way a mute point but this is how you measure current not as you said "12v current"

 

[Beehpee]

I am starting to get confused by talk of current and volts and the need for an ammeter and I am an auto electrician, the way I see this problem is not that something is draining your battery but simply that it's not charging, if you do want to check current then yes you would need an ammeter, if your checking the voltage with a multi meter then most half decent ones also can check current it's just a case of swapping leads around on the meter and putting it on a different setting, anyway I digress, I believe what you did to start with was put the van on electric hook up then checked if there was a voltage on the battery terminals with no battery connected? If there is no voltage on the terminals when the battery is not connected but it's hooked up to mains then it obviously has no output to charge your battery, when on hook up you should expect to be getting around 13.5 volts on the battery leads measured simply by putting your meter on the pos and neg leads, so no voltage on the leads faulty charger, now on my van the psu and charger are 2 separate items so it could be a faulty psu or a faulty charger, I have never had the need to actually take too much of an interest in quite how the circuits run to be honest and not got a great deal of time this week as got a really busy week ahead but if I get chance I am gonna try this aft to look at mine tho not certain will be much help as doubt all vans are similar let alone the same, one thing I don't think you can just take for granted is that it is the psu if I manage to have a look at mine I will get back to you, just on the off chance with out giving too much away where about are you as in maybe just the county for now just in case you happen to be on my doorstep. Beehpee.

 

[Reg]

Don't know the diffrence between voltage and current?........ no you cannot use a meter and just change the settings. IT MUST BE IN LINE!!!
Auto engineer?
Ah Well!
The reason I said I would put an ammeter in line would allow you to actually see what was happening to the charge and discharge. (Like what you could do with your old cars).
If you see it charging when hooked-up then this is what to expect and you don't have a problem. Obviously you will have to have the battery connected. Also if it is permantly discharging then you do have a problem.
It's called diagnostics!!
Its no good looking for a problem if you do not know what the problem is.

 

[Beehpee]

If you had read the post properly firstly I didn't say I didn't know the difference between voltage and current, I would be out of a job if I didn't and secondly I didn't say just change the settings on a meter, you can check current with a multi meter FACT! I do so regularly, I spend a large part of my life putting right work done by diy ers who think they know what they are doing when clearly they don't, I can only think if you don't know how to check current using a multi meter then your maybe one of the diy type.

 

[Reg]

Beehpee,
Well I have read it again and here's what you said........... "am starting to get confused by talk of current and volts and the need for an ammeter and I am an auto electrician"
Confused or don't know the difference?.................... still doesn't inspire confidence!
However I don't suppose Big Tim has even got a multi-meter let alone knows how to use. I think you kind of miss the point of the forum. We post questions so that another caravaner might have had a similar experience or can offer advice. Yes many of us are DIYers but prior to retiring held skilled and professional occupations often in relavant industries often highly qualified.

I wish you well!!

 

[Beehpee]

Hi Reg, I think the main problem with people posting answers on here is an inability to read the original post properly, if you had read it and taken it in you would see that the voltage was measured using a multi meter so he must have one I guess, as for being confused I am not at all confused as to the difference but as is clearly again stated in the original it's not battery drain that's a problem if it was then current drain would need to be measured, it's not a problem so current drain does not need to be measured, if it did as I said before this can def be done using a multi meter, it's not wrong answers so much as an answer that is for a problem that doesn't exist I find a problem with

 

[xtrailman]

And the winner is Beehpee.

Judges qualifications.
T5 technicians course. CG
C certificate electrical installation course. CG

 

[Reg]

Hi Beehpee
Well my logic would to be add an ammeter in line with battery connected and then do the following:-
1. With the EHU dissconnected turn on several lights within the van. This should show a discharge on the ammeter (current drain)
Leave on for some time to discharge the battery a bit.
2. Turn off the lights and hook up the mains and now the ammeter should show a charge. Leave connected until the battery is fully charged.
It's very likely that the built in charger (PSU) has a detection circuit for when the battery is fully charged and will stop charging. This is to prevent overcharging. Now at this point the meter should read zero unless current is being drawn. Also with the battery disconnected the voltage reading will probably be zero but I'm not so sure that this is a good indication.
Disconnect the mains and leave for about 24 hours or more. If the battery is at fault the caravan volt meter (if fitted) will indicate a volts drop.
Reg

PS
The joker whoever he was I didn't realise this was a contest!!

 

[Guest]

Quote; I am starting to get confused by talk of current and volts and the need for an ammeter and I am an auto electrician, the way I see this, problem is not that something is draining your battery but simply that it's not charging,

I agree Ray as in the full context the above is talking in sympthy with the questioner rather than his own confusion, having said that, neither is Reg wrong in what he says albeit perhaps asking too much of the OP.
I woud though ask what make van uses a seperate PSU and charger?!

So back to the question
First, a good battery should have returned to near 12.8v after a few hours off charge, not stay well above 13 volts?
I don't know how this system is wired but mine, (Plug in Systems) is wired so the central position of the car/van switch is psu/charger only on hookup, and van circuits off altogether when not hooked up, battery and psu together when switch set to 'van'
I say this because given the high voltage I'm not sure the psu is not working, simple test for this, as suggested, is by disconnecting the battery and seeing what you get in the way of things working
The other way is to read the voltage at the battery and with charger on and off, you should get 13.5v to 13.8v, even if the battery is showing +13v off charge, it must show an instant rise, however small, when a working psu/charger is switched on

 

[Afyfe]

We had a similar problem last week happily it's now sorted
First noticed battery voltage was not increasing when charger switched on.Voltage at battery connectors 0 volts without battery connected - no dc equipment operating in van.
Got an exchange unit from caravan dealer - still the same - battery voltage not increasing when charger switched on and voltage at battery connectors 0 volts.
Connected battery - all dc equipment working.
Removed switch panel that has the Car - Caravan selector switch - found the wire going to the charger from the switch had come off and was disconnected from the switch (spade connector)
Connected wire and hey presto ! everything now ok
Interestingly didn't know the THetford fridge needed 12V dc in order to switch it on and to make gas/12V/230V selections.

 

[BigTim]

Thanks for all the replies.
A few comments.
I'm NOT an expert in matters electrical but reasonably intelligent and practical at a DIY level.
I DO have a multimeter which is what I have been using to measure the VOLTAGE at the battery terminals
The electrical system in my 'van does NOT have a switch to switch on the charger or a car/caravan/off switch (I have had these on previous caravans).
My caravan's PSU/Charger/consumer unit/ is all combined in one unit with the 240v elcbs and 12v fuses on the front panel - I think this may be a BCA Leisure unit but I'm not sure as it is only badged "Bailey",
Since reinstalling the battery on Monday I have taken various voltage reading with my multimeter at the battery terminals /Caravan panel meter. (12v load is all the 12v halogen lights, heater fan and water pump ON.)
I then used the motor mover to move the 'van in and out of our drive to take it for new tyres. After this I got the following readings:
No Ehu/NO 12v load No EHU/12v load EHU/12v load EHU/NO 12v load
12.0v 10.5v 10.5v ------ 'Van meter
12.8v 12.06v 12.04v ----- Multimeter

I then left the 'van on EHU for 4 hours and got the following readings, 12 volt system OFF for this 4 hour period:
12.25v 10.5v 11.9v 12.8v 'Van meter
13.19v 12.5v 13.19v 13.7v Multimeter

I then left the van on EHU with the 12 volt systems OFF for 25 hours and got the following readings :
12.5v 11.5v 11.0v 12.75v 'Van meter
13.39v 12.9v 12.9v 13.73v Multimeter

I then left the 'van on EHU with the 12 volt systems ON for 3 hours and got the following readings:
11.75v 10.0v 10.75v 12.1v 'Van meter
12.49v 11.92v 12.21v 12.91v Multimeter

I've no left the 'van on EHU with the 12v systems OFF
I'd appreciate any comments from you folk who have greater electrical understanding than me.
Thanks
Tim

 

[esdave]

Hello Tim, the simple easy way to test if your charger/power supply is working is not just with your meter, because your meter can show correct volts ie 13-14volts and your charger could still be at fault you need to load the output, so this is the correct way to test a charger/power supply, take off all dc output wires (do a diagram if not on plugs) then put across DC output a 65watt car headlamp bulb on wires this will load the charger to just below 5amps ,now with just mains on see if your bulb lights ok and you have correct dc output volts if so your charger is not the fault,(leave bulb connected for about 5 minutes) but if it does not light or lights then goes out your charger is 100% at fault , you take off all out put wires in case you have a slight leakage to ground from one of your appliances , giving the effect of a faulty charger or leisure battery, if your charger needs repair I can repair if required, kind regards Dave http://www.leisureelectronicrepairs.co.uk

 

[BigTim]

Thanks for your suggestion esdave - do you mean remove the main 12v output plug from its socket or the seperate wires to each 12v appliance. If the latter I don't really feel confident about doing that as the PSU/charger and its connectors are built into a wooden housing in an underbed locker and not really very accessible. Would removing the 12v appliance fuses have the same effect as removing the wries - I COULD do that as the fuses are mounted on the front panel of the PSU/charger.
Thanks for your offer of repairing the PSU/charger if its not working but I wouldn't feel confident about disconnecting/reconnecting it.
Thanks for you advice.
Tim

 

[esdave]

Hello Tim, the whole object of the test is to see if your charger is working with all your outputs disconnected that go to your appliances, and then to put on your own load ie 65w bulb , so taking out fuses that go to your output sockets there would be no 12volts to your bulb, so no it is not suitable to remove fuses for this load test, that would be,ok if you had a leakage to ground ie short, if you could tell me make and model of your charger/power supply I could devise an option, kind regards Dave

 

[BigTim]

Thanks for replying again Dave,
Unfortunately I'm not sure what the make and model number of the PSU/charger is. It is just "badged" Bailey. I suspect it a "Leisure" unit. I will contact Bailey tomorrow. to find out the make and model number.
Tim

 

[Damian]

I think you wil find it is a BCA unit

 

[BigTim]

I'm a bit confused as when I contacted Bailey they said that the charger was this BCA unit:

http://www.bailey-parts.co.uk
Product.aspx?PartNumber=1011000

However the unit in my van includes 12v fuses and 240v elcbs. Is above the charger built into this plastic-cased unit?
I've just checked again on the caravan meter:

With the just the radio on the voltage reading rises from 12.2 to 12.75v when the ehu is switched on.
Tim

 

[BigTim]

I spent the afternoon today on the caravan trying to further investigate the charger/battery problems. This included carrying out some test suggested by folks on this and other forums.

Before starting I checked out the voltage at the battery TERMINALS whilst the terminals were still connected to the 'van leads - the 'vsn had been on EHU for a further 3 days with the 12v master switch off on the main panel.
No Ehu/NO 12v load No EHU/12v load EHU/12v load EHU/NO 12v load
12.5v 10.5v 10.5v 12.75 'Van meter
13.48v dropping 12.48v dropping 12.26v 13.73 Multimeter

With the battery disconnected the battery TERMINALl readings were 12.v & 0.2 amps (Multimeter set to 20A)

I then tested to see if the battery is receiving a charge by disconnecting the red pole and connecting the red lead of the multimeter to the battery red lead and the black lead of the multimeter to the battery's positive terminal. The multimeter was set to 20A. I got the following readings:
All 12 v equipment off (not quite all as there was something I could not identify drawing a small current) Minus 0.1 A
One 12v light switched on Minus 0.91A
All 12v ligths switched on Minus 13.6A
The reading were the same with or without the EHU.

I then checked the disconnected battery LEADS these showed 0v with the EHU on or off

I then moved inside to investigate the charger, This is a little complicated as the charger slides into a plastic housing which, also, houses the mains elcbs and 12v fuses. The plastic housing cover is a VERY tight fit and hard to remove.
When I slid the charger out I discovered that it was labelled on the base!!!
PS276-1-BC Issue 7
PSU Type 2014, 20A
Output: Voltage :13.8v Current 12A
I then checked the leads to the PSU with my multimeter with the 'van on EHU
The mains lead gave a reading of 230 volts where it plugged into the PSU
The output lead gave readings of 9.55v and 0.2A

So the charger does seem to be giving some output (9.55v) but there is no corresponding output at the battery terminals. I was unable to find any other fuses between the PSU output and the battery terminals. I was unable to check inside the charger case for fuses as it is rivited shut.

I'd be very grateful to receive any comments from those who have more knowledge than me.

 

[TD42]

Hi Tim. I hope by now you have your problem sorted, Today i have been working on my series 5 pagent with EHU connected, & noticed that without the battery on board & the master switch on, 13 .5v was showing on the volt meter .I seem to remember having no 12v a few years back & it was down to an inline fuse between the dis board & the battery.How ever I cannot remember where it was located,& looking at the circuit diagram in the sevice book there does seem to be what may be an inline fuse but could be a 3 way connector?? how ever a 16amp fuse on the dis board is marked "van battery+" have you checked this fuse?? & also double check the fuse holder as these also seem to play up according yo the circuit diagram it is the top fuse

Hope its some help
TD42

 

[BigTim]

Hi TD42
Thanks for asking. I've not really got the situation sorted yet although I've now got a bit more information to work on. I'm still a bit puzzled that I don't get any voltage reading at the battery terminals with the EHU connected and the master switch on. I appreciate that the PSU was only showing an output of 9.55v but I don't understand why I'm not even getting that at the terminals. I've had a thorough search of the cables from the battery to the PSU and could find no fuses - only connectors. I had the drawers out to look behind/under the battery box but found no fuses or disconnections.
I'm considering buying a new PSU but I'm not sure if that will cure the problem or not - certainly the PSU does not seem to be producing the voltage output that it should. The battery may, also, be suspect.
Questions, questions??
I'll probably have another look after tomorrow but at the moment I've got to concentrate on material for our Church Easter Day celebrations!!!
Thanks again for your thoughts.
Tim.

 

[BigTim]

Hi TD42
Thanks for asking. I've not really got the situation sorted yet although I've now got a bit more information to work on. I'm still a bit puzzled that I don't get any voltage reading at the battery terminals with the EHU connected and the master switch on. I appreciate that the PSU was only showing an output of 9.55v but I don't understand why I'm not even getting that at the terminals. I've had a thorough search of the cables from the battery to the PSU and could find no fuses - only connectors. I had the drawers out to look behind/under the battery box but found no fuses or disconnections.
I'm considering buying a new PSU but I'm not sure if that will cure the problem or not - certainly the PSU does not seem to be producing the voltage output that it should. The battery may, also, be suspect.
Questions, questions??
I'll probably have another look after tomorrow but at the moment I've got to concentrate on material for our Church Easter Day celebrations!!!
Thanks again for your thoughts.
Tim.