hi i have a bailey caravan and would like to get the nose weight of the van correct, the car which is towing the van at the mo is a citreon c3 picasso which has a tow ball waight of 50kg so i would like to get this correct. The problem i have is i dont have anything to calc the noise weight. Where can i get one from and how much would this piece of kit be? O and how does it work?? Thanks
caravan nose weight reader
- Thread starter MrBell
- Start date
with a noseweight that light my usual method of if you can lift with one hand okay and if it takes two it's too heavy won't work so suggest you revert to the piece of wood and bathroom scales method. Much easier and cheaper than the gauges and more accurate too.
It is a light noise weight for the car which i am supprised about. The caravan at the mo has one gas bottle at the front and thats it. so at the minute there is hardly any weight on the front! We are heading off to oban soon so will be packing the caravan and will be wanting to get the noise weight correct as will be taking bikes and stuff. so i should get some bathroom scales and a piece of wood and that should calculate my noise weight! 54kgs is light and i really dont under stand why it is so light as most cars have a noise weight of 70kgs.
yes, flat surface, legs up position scales under hitch with piece of wood between hitch and scales, gently lower and read the weight as easy as that!
Hello Mr Bell,
The simplest and cheapest method of measuring the nose weight is to use a length of wooden broom stick, a pair of bathroom scales and another piece of wood to spread the load on the scales to avoid damaging them.
The process needs to be followed carefully for accuracy and safety.
Load the car and the caravan with all luggage and people as if you are about to go on holiday.
Find some level (horizontal) ground and park up.
With the car still full of people and the caravan attached. Measure the height of the the top of the hitch from the ground. The height is important, as the nose weight of a caravan actually varies if the height is changed.
Chock the caravan wheels or apply the hand brake and uncouple the caravan. Move the car out of the way.
Put the spreader on the scales and position them directly under the hitch.
Cut the broom handle so that when it is put into the hitch and stood on the spreader, the top of the hitch is exactly the same height as when it was attached to the car. Its even better if the broom handle can be securely fixed to the spreader as it is less likely to flip-out.
Raise the jockey wheel and all the steadies so the total nose weight is applied to the broom handle, and the applied load can be read on the scales. (you can correct for the weight of the broom handle and spreader)
The EU regulations state the nose weight of any trailer should be a never be less than 25Kg and ideally should be no less than 4% of the trailers MTPLM . The upper limit is the smallest of the limits set by the tow vehicle or the trailer manufactures. (check your tow bar data lable )
It is widely recognised that trailers (and especially caravans or large box trailers) tow better with large nose weights - manufacture. The UK caravan industry suggest that as a guide 7% is a good target. That said the nose weight must never exceed the maximum specified by the car or caravan manufacturer.
I cannot condone Martins method of assessing the nose weight by seeing if you can lift it, As incorrect nose weight is a motoring offence the accuracy of measuring becomes important especially where you may be operating very close to limits. Humans are not accurate or consistent measuring devices.
The simplest and cheapest method of measuring the nose weight is to use a length of wooden broom stick, a pair of bathroom scales and another piece of wood to spread the load on the scales to avoid damaging them.
The process needs to be followed carefully for accuracy and safety.
Load the car and the caravan with all luggage and people as if you are about to go on holiday.
Find some level (horizontal) ground and park up.
With the car still full of people and the caravan attached. Measure the height of the the top of the hitch from the ground. The height is important, as the nose weight of a caravan actually varies if the height is changed.
Chock the caravan wheels or apply the hand brake and uncouple the caravan. Move the car out of the way.
Put the spreader on the scales and position them directly under the hitch.
Cut the broom handle so that when it is put into the hitch and stood on the spreader, the top of the hitch is exactly the same height as when it was attached to the car. Its even better if the broom handle can be securely fixed to the spreader as it is less likely to flip-out.
Raise the jockey wheel and all the steadies so the total nose weight is applied to the broom handle, and the applied load can be read on the scales. (you can correct for the weight of the broom handle and spreader)
The EU regulations state the nose weight of any trailer should be a never be less than 25Kg and ideally should be no less than 4% of the trailers MTPLM . The upper limit is the smallest of the limits set by the tow vehicle or the trailer manufactures. (check your tow bar data lable )
It is widely recognised that trailers (and especially caravans or large box trailers) tow better with large nose weights - manufacture. The UK caravan industry suggest that as a guide 7% is a good target. That said the nose weight must never exceed the maximum specified by the car or caravan manufacturer.
I cannot condone Martins method of assessing the nose weight by seeing if you can lift it, As incorrect nose weight is a motoring offence the accuracy of measuring becomes important especially where you may be operating very close to limits. Humans are not accurate or consistent measuring devices.
So lets see if i have picked this up correctly, i need to get a broom stick, some scales. I need to hook the caravan up to the car and find somewhere level, then cut the stick to the height of the hitch (when hooked up to the car) so i am calculating the weight correctly, then i unhitch the caravan from the car and gently lower the hitch with the wood onto the scales with another piece to spread the load so can get a good reading, it cant be any lighter then minium weight 24kg.
I think i will be to the limit of 54kg by the time i have two gas bottles at the front plus bedding underneath the front seats and also two peddel bikes in the caravan.
As an estimate i recon the two gas bottles will weigh around 12kg+ plus say bedding of 2-3kgs plus two bikes so ill be getting close to the nose weight of the car.
When i have been away in the caravan previously i have put all heavy stuff, awning and wheel clamp and bottles on the axel so the noise weight isnt too heavy. Am i doing this correctly?? Im still new to loading a caravan and still new to caravaning in general.
Most of the food and other accessories we take for our holiday we would put in the car so i am sure i should be ok!
I think i will be to the limit of 54kg by the time i have two gas bottles at the front plus bedding underneath the front seats and also two peddel bikes in the caravan.
As an estimate i recon the two gas bottles will weigh around 12kg+ plus say bedding of 2-3kgs plus two bikes so ill be getting close to the nose weight of the car.
When i have been away in the caravan previously i have put all heavy stuff, awning and wheel clamp and bottles on the axel so the noise weight isnt too heavy. Am i doing this correctly?? Im still new to loading a caravan and still new to caravaning in general.
Most of the food and other accessories we take for our holiday we would put in the car so i am sure i should be ok!
Here i have my MK1 gauge, i use this at home to check the nose weight before setting offMr Bell said:
As you can see it is adjustable by up to two inches.
The above photos are of the Reich TLC Electronic Nose Weight Gauge
It's a bit easier to carry & store for when we are out & about.
Hello again Mr Bell,
May I draw your attention to the need to cut the broom handle so that when it is on the spreader and the scales it keeps the hitch at the measured height.
In essence you are doing basically the right thing to load the caravan, but you may need to move some of the heavier items towards the back of the caravan to counterbalance the gas bottles etc so you get the noseweight within range. The minimum is 25 not 24Kg and the maxium is the lesser value of the car or caravan maximum nose weight limit.
Sprokets home made solution for the scales is great, but the TLC unit fails on the grounds it adds height to the towball, and thus creates an inaccurate reading. For a single axle caravan the additional height will make it read low, which means if you load to the limit with the device, when the hitch is fitted to the car the reduction in height will mean you are legaly and technically over loaded.
However, if you measure your caravan accurately on the scales, and then use the TLC device you can note the reading, and use that as your target figure when usingteh TLC unit in the in future.
May I draw your attention to the need to cut the broom handle so that when it is on the spreader and the scales it keeps the hitch at the measured height.
In essence you are doing basically the right thing to load the caravan, but you may need to move some of the heavier items towards the back of the caravan to counterbalance the gas bottles etc so you get the noseweight within range. The minimum is 25 not 24Kg and the maxium is the lesser value of the car or caravan maximum nose weight limit.
Sprokets home made solution for the scales is great, but the TLC unit fails on the grounds it adds height to the towball, and thus creates an inaccurate reading. For a single axle caravan the additional height will make it read low, which means if you load to the limit with the device, when the hitch is fitted to the car the reduction in height will mean you are legaly and technically over loaded.
However, if you measure your caravan accurately on the scales, and then use the TLC device you can note the reading, and use that as your target figure when usingteh TLC unit in the in future.
ok so having the scale and using a piece of wood would give me the accurate figure but surley have the tlc gadget on your tow ball wont make that much if any difference as is nearly the height on which the caravan is hitched to the car! There may only be a very slight difference in weight.
Does everyone check their nose weight of the car before towing?? i know i should do it and thats only because im on this forum. If i wasnt on here i wouldnt have known about nose weights!
I really need to pack my caravan up and see what the weights are.
I dont have a huge amount of kit in the caravan any way so i hope i havent been over the limits.
Does everyone check their nose weight of the car before towing?? i know i should do it and thats only because im on this forum. If i wasnt on here i wouldnt have known about nose weights!
I really need to pack my caravan up and see what the weights are.
I dont have a huge amount of kit in the caravan any way so i hope i havent been over the limits.
Mr Bell
There are very good mechanical reasons why the the applied nose weight is affected by the height of the hitch. Its all to do with moments, levers and the rotation of the caravans centre of mass about the axle.
I have accurately stated that the nose weight of a caravan changes with height of the hitch. In the case of a single axle caravan as the hitch is raised the nose weight deminishes equally if the hitch drops the nose weight increases. For twin axles the situation is even more severe small changes hitch in height can produce tens of Kg difference in nose weight due to teh interaction of the suspension on the two axles.
So the only accurate way is to follow the way the regulation is applied which is to measure the the nose weight at the towing height.
The danger in your circumstances is that you have a particularly low tow ball nose weight limit. this means you will be working very close to that limit. If the sytem of measurment you use under estimates your real noseweight because it measures it above the towing height, then you may actually be over-loaded at the towing height and that is an offence.
There are very good mechanical reasons why the the applied nose weight is affected by the height of the hitch. Its all to do with moments, levers and the rotation of the caravans centre of mass about the axle.
I have accurately stated that the nose weight of a caravan changes with height of the hitch. In the case of a single axle caravan as the hitch is raised the nose weight deminishes equally if the hitch drops the nose weight increases. For twin axles the situation is even more severe small changes hitch in height can produce tens of Kg difference in nose weight due to teh interaction of the suspension on the two axles.
So the only accurate way is to follow the way the regulation is applied which is to measure the the nose weight at the towing height.
The danger in your circumstances is that you have a particularly low tow ball nose weight limit. this means you will be working very close to that limit. If the sytem of measurment you use under estimates your real noseweight because it measures it above the towing height, then you may actually be over-loaded at the towing height and that is an offence.
I will have to find time to be able to get the nose weight calculated correctly. Its a few weeks before we go away so i have time. I will try and find a good set of cheap scales and a piece of wood to see if can work it all out.
Thanks for all the advice, im still learning at the mo about all the different aspectes of caravaning, so thank you everyone who has posted on this thread.
Thanks for all the advice, im still learning at the mo about all the different aspectes of caravaning, so thank you everyone who has posted on this thread.
We bought a nose weight gauge off eBay for about £12. It is reasonably accurate, does the job and can be stored easily. PIA carrying bathroom scales around with you. By the time you have bought the scales and broomstick you might as well have bought the proper gear. We only check once in several months as our load is fairly consistent. See here
Hello Surfer,
As I have been at pains to point out, the only correct way to establish the nose weight with the hitch at exactly the same height as when it is hitched to the car. The device you have pointed to has no adjustment for height, and in fact it changes its length depending on the load you apply to it. It would only be by luck or good fortune it it happened to match your towball height for a given load.
Also most of the telescopic gauges have such coarse graduations they are difficult to interpolate, and ther have been several instances where their accuracy of display has been called into question.
Such devises in my opinion are not fit for purpose.
As I have been at pains to point out, the only correct way to establish the nose weight with the hitch at exactly the same height as when it is hitched to the car. The device you have pointed to has no adjustment for height, and in fact it changes its length depending on the load you apply to it. It would only be by luck or good fortune it it happened to match your towball height for a given load.
Also most of the telescopic gauges have such coarse graduations they are difficult to interpolate, and ther have been several instances where their accuracy of display has been called into question.
Such devises in my opinion are not fit for purpose.
£12 isnt too bad for something so simple, as iv said i have to be careful as only have a maxamum weight of 54kg, been looking at what you use and it starts at 50kg, thats should still be ok for what i want??Surfer said:
Prof John L said:
i understan your piont that some of the devices wont be fit for purpose, and see that some just are cheap and i dont think they will work very, BUT there are dvices out there that will do the job well, at the end of the day people have had this problem for a while so someone some where must be able to make a device which can give you an accurate reading with out using bathroom scales and a piece of wood!
Dont forget that to determine the correct height of the ball with the coupled caravan both the car and caravan must be as they are for the holiday. So the wife and the kids, dressed as they will be and the entire luggage must be in place exactly as it will be on going on holiday. It is best to have the fuel tank full and then of course you can’t personally measure the height as you have to be sat in the car, seat adjusted exactly as it will be when driving your arm extended to hold the wheel; using both hands remember. Here you need a reliable friend, ideally fully trained and certificated in taking measurements to come round when it’s all set up. Oh don’t forget to check all the tyre pressure and set the car ones for towing.
We are not dealing with something that has to be so precise as is being painted here. It is after all a “static” weight that creates but a fraction of the dynamic forces that will be encountered on the road. If you measure things when they are reasonably level then your doing more that 99% of those on the road ever do. You need to know its not grossly over weight and possibly more important not much under your unfortunately light vehicle’s limit.
I would be quite wrong to imply that it’s not important so don’t of course be unconcerned about it but don’t let it make life too difficult either, you will at your limit be lucky to be within 10%. You are never going to get consistent repeatability; even a breeze makes a difference!
We are not dealing with something that has to be so precise as is being painted here. It is after all a “static” weight that creates but a fraction of the dynamic forces that will be encountered on the road. If you measure things when they are reasonably level then your doing more that 99% of those on the road ever do. You need to know its not grossly over weight and possibly more important not much under your unfortunately light vehicle’s limit.
I would be quite wrong to imply that it’s not important so don’t of course be unconcerned about it but don’t let it make life too difficult either, you will at your limit be lucky to be within 10%. You are never going to get consistent repeatability; even a breeze makes a difference!
I'm glad there has been someone else who has posted more or less what I've been thinking as I've watched this topic progress, I read the last reply and found I agreed for the first time since this topic began, yes I know and I agree that nose weight is important but if we were to go to the degrees needed to get a 100% accurate reading I reckon half of us would end up packing up caravanning, my gauge is a small telescopic scale that sits on my towball and I then lower the caravan on to this, this compresses a spring and I read off the weight, ok it's probably one of the cheapest options going as you see them in all the accesorie shops, it's yellow and red I don't know the make but I'm sure most of you will have seen it, ok it's probably a pretty rough guide to what I actually have but as long as I'm somewhere in the right area I will settle for that, i wonder if everyone on here were to be totally 100% honest could actually say they had checked the nose weight before every singal trip? Who amongst us hasnt loaded the van when leaving sites in the pouring rain and then thought sod the nose weight I'm off, I know I have but I also know I've checked it enough times and got it right to have a pretty good idea when it's near enough, there is such a thing as being too careful in my opinion.
Bp
Bp
Prof John L said:
Why would you need an instrument that is precise? Why complicate a simple excercise and spend money on something that is going to give you a reading similar to the cheapo instrument. Why would you need to adjust it for height when all you have to do is raise the front with the jockey wheel and then settle it down on the cheapo nose weight gauge. The reading is almost identical to that when using bathroom scales and until you have used both please do not offer an opinion. Our difference was less than 5kg which is insignificant!
It is totally irresponsible for any contributor on this forum (or any other forum) to advise a practice that is contrary to a legal requirement. (see forum etiquette 2)
Why do it wrong when with little extra effort get it right, and protect your licence.
If your nose weight limit is 50Kg and you have 55Kg - you are over loaded and that is an offence.
I have tried both methods which is why I can claim from both a practical and theoretic point of view that the generic telescopic noseweight guages are not sufficently accurate ( and in some cases not consistent) and not fit for purpose.
The nose weight has to reside within a range with and upper and lower limit. The limits are established for each towing outfit and as such you cannot assume any tollerance outside the limits as there is capcaity within the range and you are expected to compensate for equiepment errors to keep the actual value within the range.
5kg in 50Kg is +10% and that is well beyond any reasonable tollerance of any weight measuring device operating in a 0 to 100Kg range.
If you intend to use a telescopic guage, with a single axle caravan then the only reasonably safe way is to aim to keep the reading 10Kg or more below the maximum limit you have. I will not even entertain them for a twin axle as the nose weight variation can change by a considerable amount within a few cm height difference.
As for the comments regading the additional accelerataion stresses generated whist towing, the comments are correct in that several times the static nose load is generated. The equipment manufactures are of course aware of these and will have designed adequate margins into the product to cope with normal towing conditions. But the issue here is not what the system can cope with under towing conditions, it is legality of the nose weight under static conditions, thus any dynamic margins are of no relevance here.
It seems there are some who take considerable delight in telling how they deliberately ignore, use practices that do not conform or set out to deliberatly contravene regulations. Yet when they get caught out they are the ones that shout the loudest claming they are being victimised.
Why do it wrong when with little extra effort get it right, and protect your licence.
If your nose weight limit is 50Kg and you have 55Kg - you are over loaded and that is an offence.
I have tried both methods which is why I can claim from both a practical and theoretic point of view that the generic telescopic noseweight guages are not sufficently accurate ( and in some cases not consistent) and not fit for purpose.
The nose weight has to reside within a range with and upper and lower limit. The limits are established for each towing outfit and as such you cannot assume any tollerance outside the limits as there is capcaity within the range and you are expected to compensate for equiepment errors to keep the actual value within the range.
5kg in 50Kg is +10% and that is well beyond any reasonable tollerance of any weight measuring device operating in a 0 to 100Kg range.
If you intend to use a telescopic guage, with a single axle caravan then the only reasonably safe way is to aim to keep the reading 10Kg or more below the maximum limit you have. I will not even entertain them for a twin axle as the nose weight variation can change by a considerable amount within a few cm height difference.
As for the comments regading the additional accelerataion stresses generated whist towing, the comments are correct in that several times the static nose load is generated. The equipment manufactures are of course aware of these and will have designed adequate margins into the product to cope with normal towing conditions. But the issue here is not what the system can cope with under towing conditions, it is legality of the nose weight under static conditions, thus any dynamic margins are of no relevance here.
It seems there are some who take considerable delight in telling how they deliberately ignore, use practices that do not conform or set out to deliberatly contravene regulations. Yet when they get caught out they are the ones that shout the loudest claming they are being victimised.
I stand by what I wrote as you have no idea whatsoever on whether the cheapo gauge is inaccurate or not. In addition, if your tow ball weight is max at 50 kg you are using a very small car therefore it stands to reason that the vehicle will have a low kerbweight and probably an even lower maximum braked towing weight. All this evidence points to the fact that the unit being towed will be very lightweight and probably within the limits unless you were an idiot and loaded everything in the front of the unit being towed. Perhaps you can name a few vehicles where the maximum tow ball weight is 50kg or less.
I understand where your coming from, surley if you use a car which is towing a small caravan then yes the weights are not going to be massive. I am using a C3 picasso 1.6HDI (its my dads as i dont have a tow car at the minute) and it does well for a medium size car.Surfer said:
The only thing is it has a small tow ball weight of 54kg, which really isnt a problem if i pack the caravan correctly! I like the fact that there are simple devices which seem to do a rough job on calculating nose weight and i do understand the argument of different factors which can determain the nose weight.
I have been looking at these nose weight calaculators since starting on this post and they all look like they will do the same job, so if i did buy one and used it surley i would be able to get a rough idea. Or what i could do is pack the caravan use one of these readers get the reading so say it said 50kg and i have 54kg to play with then it would be fine, if the reading was over say 60kg then i would know that i was over and would have to move kit around. There must only be a few kgs difference to using a piece of wood and scales!! They wouldnt sell a nose weight calculator if it didnt work as then they are breaching the law with thier descriptions of the item they are selling and they are surley just an estamite.
Lutz
I used to tow at about 90-95kg on the nose, the photos earlier on in the thread that i posted shows 82kg i had decided to try around the 80kg mark due to having bought a shocklink even the wife noticed how much smoother the ride is, but some of this has got to be acounted for in the vertical movment of the shocklink ............
I used to tow at about 90-95kg on the nose, the photos earlier on in the thread that i posted shows 82kg i had decided to try around the 80kg mark due to having bought a shocklink even the wife noticed how much smoother the ride is, but some of this has got to be acounted for in the vertical movment of the shocklink ............
Hello Surfer,
Nose weight is not an automatic analog of the mass of the whole caravan, it is independnatly created by the way a caravan is loaded. so it is eroneous to assume that a small caravan will only have a small nose weight. It is possible to have a small caravan with a heavier nose weight than a larger caravan depending on the specifications of the car and caravan.
As we know it is reccomended you should arrange to have a nose weight towards the top of the available limit as it seems to help with towing characteristics. So using Mr Bell's supplied information, he tells us his nose weight limit is only 54Kg. Even if I knew all the cars with low nose weight limits, I am not going to list them as we are dealing with Mr bells enquirey here. If you want a list I suggest you trawl through all the car makes models and specifications yourself.
If Mr Bell were to change his car to one with a 100Kg nose weight limit he could legitimately load the caravan to produce a nose weight of over 54Kg and up towards the 100Kg
But as he is stuck with 54Kg, that must be his absolute static limit. If you are suggesting he should use a system that could render himself illegal then I cannot see how you can condone such a practice. His particular problem is he has little range of weight to play with. An 1100Kg caravan to be complijant with the EU 4% regulation means he needs a minimum nose weight of 44Kg. that leaves only a 10Kg nose weight window.
With such small margins you need a consitently accurate method of measuremsnt to ensure compliance. a gauge that has a +/- error of 5Kg is not going to be helpful.
I have yet to find a comercial nose weight guage that allows the user to correctly adjust for height (which is a fundamental criteria under the regulations) and that can be adjusted to accuracy compapare nosewights against known loads, and has sufficently fine graduations to reduce reader error.
Sprockets home made system is the best solution I have seen. as it can meet all the above criteria. haveing checked his nose weight on his scales system, he can the compare it with the TLC, and provided he always produces the same reading on each trip he will remain compliant.
What I can't understand is why so many people seem so agaisnt doing the job properly, as it endangers your licence?
Nose weight is not an automatic analog of the mass of the whole caravan, it is independnatly created by the way a caravan is loaded. so it is eroneous to assume that a small caravan will only have a small nose weight. It is possible to have a small caravan with a heavier nose weight than a larger caravan depending on the specifications of the car and caravan.
As we know it is reccomended you should arrange to have a nose weight towards the top of the available limit as it seems to help with towing characteristics. So using Mr Bell's supplied information, he tells us his nose weight limit is only 54Kg. Even if I knew all the cars with low nose weight limits, I am not going to list them as we are dealing with Mr bells enquirey here. If you want a list I suggest you trawl through all the car makes models and specifications yourself.
If Mr Bell were to change his car to one with a 100Kg nose weight limit he could legitimately load the caravan to produce a nose weight of over 54Kg and up towards the 100Kg
But as he is stuck with 54Kg, that must be his absolute static limit. If you are suggesting he should use a system that could render himself illegal then I cannot see how you can condone such a practice. His particular problem is he has little range of weight to play with. An 1100Kg caravan to be complijant with the EU 4% regulation means he needs a minimum nose weight of 44Kg. that leaves only a 10Kg nose weight window.
With such small margins you need a consitently accurate method of measuremsnt to ensure compliance. a gauge that has a +/- error of 5Kg is not going to be helpful.
I have yet to find a comercial nose weight guage that allows the user to correctly adjust for height (which is a fundamental criteria under the regulations) and that can be adjusted to accuracy compapare nosewights against known loads, and has sufficently fine graduations to reduce reader error.
Sprockets home made system is the best solution I have seen. as it can meet all the above criteria. haveing checked his nose weight on his scales system, he can the compare it with the TLC, and provided he always produces the same reading on each trip he will remain compliant.
What I can't understand is why so many people seem so agaisnt doing the job properly, as it endangers your licence?
I think one or two are getting a bit carried away in details in this thread. Yes, if exceed the limit you would be breaking the law and, yes, stability is (normally) improved the higher the noseweight, but nobody is forced to go right to the legal limit. I would like to know if anyone has ever honestly been able to detect any difference in the way his outfit handles with, say, a 5kg change. Therefore, why not stay on the safe side and set the noseweight around 5kg less than the limit? That would allow for any inaccuracies in the scales and operator error.
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