Caravans For Sale : Advertised Weights

[Dustydog]

Thumbing through my latest CC magazine there appears to be a growing number of sellers stating the MIRO.

Without question this weight is lower than the MTPLM and in my view is a deliberate attempt to suggest to a potential purchaser tha c'van is lighter than it really is.

Surely it's the MTPLM we should concern ourselves with when purchasing?? I know the answers but what about the newbies? They may be mislead??

Cheers

Alan

 

[starlightdj]

Hi its not only in magazines - Last weekend we attended the manchester caravan show and put a deposit down on a sterling europa after the salesman conviced us our car was a great match, it turns out he has done all the calculations on the MIRO weight. If I use the MTPLM our match would be 107.2% which makes it a dangerous match

I now have to do a 80 miles round trip on saturday to argue to get our deposit back.

I know i should of done the calculations myself but when sitting in your ideal van you take the word of the so called expert helping you.

thanks Alan for raising the point.

John

 

[Damian]

Yep, quite agree, this seems to be the latest ploy to sell vans to unsuspecting clients.

Totally wrong in my view and should be severely treated.

In todays economic climate it is no wonder however that sellers are trying every trick in the book to make sales,they do not care what happens after!!

 

[TD42]

surely they are guilty of mis selling? I do know that the softwear program they use calculates on the car makers towing limit & the %85 rule does'nt come into it.

one told me my ZX 1.9 KW 1100kg was ok to tow a van mtplm 1150kg

 

[Lutz]

It would be difficult to prove mis-selling so long as the towload doesn't exceed the car manufacturer's limit, even if the weight ratio turns out to be over 100%. After all, it wouldn't be illegal technically and there are people who quite happily (and legally) tow over 100%.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Tony

Just for clarities sake there is no such thing as the "85% rule".

It is merely a guideline drawn up by various bodies including the CC to help people tow a caravan within "safe" bounderies.

As others will tell you there appears to be no law that determines what you can and cannot tow. Sensibility and the limits imposed by the car manufacturer do give a very good indication.

What we are now seeing are CHEATS trying to persuade the gullible that the caravan for sale is lighter than it really is for towing purposes. A bit like saying your car does 40mpg when in fact the real truth is 30mpg, ie they just quote the lowest of the manufacturers three figures.

Be careful.

Cheers

Alan

 

[Guest]

Without attempting to defend all so called 'dodgy sellers' I feel there are 2 sides to the issue.

I do not see any problem with a seller using the MIRO to advertise his caravan. After all the same figure is the one used by the manufacturer and is the unladen weight. It is, in my mind, a matter for the buyer to check what load factor he/she intends to use and check that they will be able to tow safely. I would point out that even Practical Magazine has been guilty on occasions for towing caravans for test using tow vehicles that cannot tow the van if fully laden. The excuse? The van is merely being towed empty and therefore is acceptable. This fact is usually stated in the text, but if you just look at the photographs, you could easily get the wrong idea.

Yes, all relevant information should be given, but even a newbie should have the inclination to check everything out thoroughly, and not just rely on information received. We are responsible adults. If a van is sold 'as seen' then that is exactly the situation. Caveat emptor springs to mind. Every van has somewhere a plate with all weights on it. If not, don't think about buying it.

 

[Dustydog]

Scotch Lad

Quite right. But it's not the likes of us guys getting duped here but the real innocent newbies who still have a big learning curve to achieve. Why try and "stitch "them up ? That's what it is ; an unfair stitch up to catch the innocent.

Cheers

Alan

 

[Guest]

Sorry, but our whole world these days is full of 'stitch ups' or even scams that are borderline legal. Every advert offering you a bargain rate (for the first 3 months only) is virtually the norm for broadband suppliers. Also if I have never seen a mail shot that did not have big numbers at the top, and in very small print at the bottom, the true cost, then my dustbin would not be so full.

Most people if they are buying a secondhand car get it checked for HP or faults by the AA or others. The same situation applies with caravans, boats motorhomes etc etc. If someone wishes to cough up a few thousand quid without a check, then as the saying goes ' a fool and his money are easily parted'. There is a lot of information from either the main Clubs, or even through magazine articles advising how to go about purchasing a carvan, or any big cost item. So, anyone who feels it does not apply to them is I regret, on their own. I am not a babysitter.

 

[BrianStAlbans]

Lutz

29 Jan 2009 02:52 PM It would be difficult to prove mis-selling so long as the towload doesn't exceed the car manufacturer's limit, even if the weight ratio turns out to be over 100%. After all, it wouldn't be illegal technically and there are people who quite happily (and legally) tow over 100%.

Agree with your figures Lutz and I think a recent case was found in favour of a dealer for exactly the reasons you give. But in John's case it's clear the caravan was mis sold as the link below will show.

http://www.practicalcaravan.com/newforums/fm_messages.asp?FO=10&FM=431606
Brian

 

[Parksy]

Good topic!

While we are not babysitters as Scotch Lad has pointed out one of the purposes of this forum and website is to try to prevent both new potential caravanners and us oldies from making expensive mistakes and to highlight the pitfalls.

Thanks for bringing this subject up.

Good luck at the dealers John, let us know the outcome with your deposit please.

 

[Guest]

The situation with John has a number of considerations. When he is considering his total weights is he using the manufacturer's kerb weight, which is very often lighter than the actual weight of the tow vehicle. It could be that he is either on 100%, or maybe just under, if he took everything to a weighbridge, so is not illegal. However, he is certainly looking at towing more than the maximum towing limit for his car and although the salesman maybe should have known that, it may be he just used the weights. From his description the salesman stated it was a 'good match' not that it fitted the 85% guidelines, or any other limitation. Now if 'John' quoted his maximum towing weight to the salesman, and then received 'in writing' a statement that it would be fine, then he has a legal case. Verbals, I am not so sure. I suspect a Court would ask why the customer had not made more enquiries.

As far as his deposit is concerned, again as far as I am aware, there is a 14 day 'cooling off' period for Contracts so he can cancel within that time and get his money back no problem. I would also suspect that if it is a reputable dealer, then they will be flexible, especially if perhaps 'John' was to offer to buy a lighter van from them.

Again, I come back to my main plank of contention, that it is up to us as customers to ensure that what we are intending to purchase is a) exactly what we want and b) is what we REALLY want and c)it is always best to think things over before signing. The good deal will always be there tomorrow, if it is such a good deal.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi scotch Lad,

I think you have made some good points, but I seem to recall that the 14-day cooling off period has limitations and was primarily aimed at cases where a supplier came the customers home and made a sale. It was to put off the high pressure sales tactics used by some unscrupulous salesmen. It might not apply where the customer signs at a suppliers depot. - sorry if this is bad news.

With regards to John and his salesman, we do not have enough information to be able to come to any conclusion about the situation. 107% is not automatically a dangerous combination, though it is certainly better to keep the ratio as low as possible.

 

[Lutz]

The issue here is not whether the weight ratio is over 85% or even over 100%, both of which do not automatically constitute an obvious case of deliberate deception, but by providing only the MIRO, the potential buyer is not made aware of the fact that the outfit may be illegal if the caravan is fully laden up to its MTPLM. It would reasonable to expect that one is able to make full use of the MTPLM unless a conscious decision to the contrary is taken, so withholding details of the MTPLM is definitely mis-selling.

I feel that the seller should also make the buyer aware of the legal ramifications regarding driving licence requirements if the weight ratio exceeds 100%. This also requires information regarding the MTPLM.

 

[Guest]

Lutz,

Your points are valid but I suspect that the laws in the UK do not require the information you have suggested, to be given. There is a difference between deliberately misleading a customer, and shall we say being 'economical with the information'. The supplier has done nothing wrong, but the customer has failed to either ask the right questions, or not checked the facts. I am not trying to defend the dealer, merely pointing out that it takes 2 to make a Contract and one should always read the small print. In this case The dealer is stating, 'here is a van with a given MIRO'. There is nothing incorrect about that. Unfortunately, many salesmen/women do not have either the right training, or the incentive to check all the relevant facts before making a sale. That is the function of a customer to check what he/she is buying is what they want.

We have currently entered what is known as the 'com-pen-say-shun' culture where any mistake has to be someone else's fault. Maybe it is, and then again, maybe not.

 

[Lutz]

I can see your point as well, Scoth Lad, but I do feel that there is a difference between withholding information which may only affect the value of a product (like damp in a caravan, for example) and withholding information which is vital to the legality of using it (such as weights, etc.).

 

[Guest]

Lutz,

Agreed, but there is no definite rule on this. For instance we all know that licences issued after a certain date are restricted to 3500 kg total weight. If you, as a purchaser, decided to buy a heavier outfit, is it the reponsibility of the dealer to ensure that you are correct, or is he merely assuming that as a customer, you know your own legality. Should he demand to see your driving licence, or if given a positive answer, assume all is fine?

The Law merely states that if we wish to use the public highways, then we must ensure that we, as users, meet all the relevant legislation.

 

[starlightdj]

Hi all. so many comments, its been a good debate.

To clarify at the show I had all the details of my car, ie kerb weight max tow weight etc.

No brochures for the van in question were left so i could not check the caravans specifications myself.(Never thought of the plate on the side of the van I admit my nievity in that)

We sat in what we thought was our ideal van, ie perfect layout and comfort.

We could only then take the salesmens advice and what we thought was his expertise to see if the van was the right match for our car.

We informed him of the car specifications, he then pulled out his lap top and stated after confirming all our details via tow safe and comparing the vans specs to our car, we would have a good and safe match for this van.

We loved the van so much and everything else ie show deal etc we decided to put a deposit down.

After returning home and checking the specs myself as well as seeking advice on the furum I discovered with great dismay the van was not a good match, on contacting the dealer his comments confirmed he always only uses the miro weight to sell his vans and to help advise his customers.

This I feel is not only misleading but could be dangerous as a poor match can not only be illegal but could be a leading factor in an accident, which also means the insurance companies have a get out clause in relation to any subsequent claim.

After visiting the dealer I am happy to say there was no argument on their part and stated that if we had any misgivings with towing the van they would happily refund the deposit. A credit was put staight back onto my card.

So from my stance Yes I agree

 

[starlightdj]

sorry cut short.

Yes I agree its the buyers resposability to check all the details and ensure they have a safe match, however when purchasing a brand new van especially at a show, I do feel that if a salesman is given the exact details and your asking for their expertise you would expect them to have the relevant knowledge of the industry to correctly advise or at least to air their concerns in borderline cases.

So to finish this essay I do believe that by advertising or selling caravans by using the miro weight alone is to put it mildly misleading, dangerous or in my case if the deposit wasnt refunded very costly

Thanks for all input its opened my eyes.

John

 

[Dustydog]

John

Well done. Glad you got your money back. Just goes to show the forum does help.

Cheers

Dustydog