Cars Tow Capacity - MIRO vs MLTPM

[otherclive]

Having BE on the licence is the EU requirement - how it's obtained is up to individual countries.

However an anomally will exist - those who passed their car test in/after 1997 but haven't passed the towing test will only see BE on their licence when it's renewed - although they'll be able to tow bigger outfits in the UK, it may cause issues if they go abroad with only B on their licence.

Thanks, so are there any EU countries that issue BE without a test being required? My thoughts are that if they all require a test then the EU would be within its rights to not accept U.K. BE which post date 1997 and we’re issued without a test on safety grounds.

 

[RogerL]

Thanks, so are there any EU countries that issue BE without a test being required? My thoughts are that if they all require a test then the EU would be within its rights to not accept U.K. BE which post date 1997 and we’re issued without a test on safety grounds.

During the time of EU licence harmonisation, the UK considered not requiring an E test, this would have been legal under EU rules, but didn't do that in the end - the UK's use of grandfather BE rights for pre-1997 drivers wasn't done in some EU countries where they required all drivers to pass a towing test to get BE.

The EU standard format licence, which we still use, doesn't show which groups have been tested, just those groups authorised to drive - in theory there may be (very old) drivers who never passed any test but have BE on their licence.

Those drivers who have passed the E towing test between 1997 and 2021 would have no way of proving that to an EU authority - other than the BE shown on their licence.

 

[Raywood]

Given the fact that the limitation will be removed later this year it is not worth doing the test. Possibly the best answer is if you are not going to use the caravan immediately to ask the seller if they will store it for you until then, or if you know someone who does tow, get them to move it for you. Just seen the new rules for towing a trailer point in the towing and driving safely section. If you know someone with a B+E licence you can put on L plates and have them with you as instructor as long as they are over 21 and held the licence for over three years.
It does look as though you will have to replace the licence if you do not have the B+E shown and if you wish to tow abroad though.

 

[JezzerB]

I've never felt that having to do a B E test is fair-why should someone have to do it simply because of age/date they did their driving test. However I now feel really really sorry for those who have invested in BE testing kit and those who have recently coughed up a lot of money for doing it!

 

[ProfJohnL]

I have actually just seen this online also so from a limit perspective I’d actually be ok with this combination.

however my cars tow limit is still 1300kg so with the mltpm at 1317 I would still be over, regardless of how it’s loaded if it goes on plates only.

Technically your assumption is wrong, becasue the cars maximum towed weight is only the portion of the trailers weight carried by its road wheels. The remaining portion forms the noseload which is not towed but carried by the tow vehicle. On the basis that the EU regulations (and the ones we continue to follow post brexit) which create this methodology expect the nose load will be 4% or more of the trailers all up weight, that leaves 96% or less carried by the trailers road wheels. If we apply these figures to your caravan 1317kg -96% = 1264kg on the road wheels with the balance of 53kg as the nose load.

Whilst technically that make your suggested combination within the cars specification, there are some other factors that might make it less compatible - but not necessarily impossible.

FIrstly the car only has a 1300kg towed weight limit and that would have been established using a near ideal trailer. Unfortunately caravans are far from ideal trailers being larger than the tow vehicle, with slab sides and frontal areas which makes a massive difference to the air resistance. so combined with the weight and air resistance smaller and less powerful tow vehicles will struggle more to keep things under good control.

The size shape and the length of overhangs of a caravan also makes them more susceptible to side winds and bow waves from other passing vehicles. The additional forces from these can cause the caravan to destabilise the lighter tow vehicles.

Very much with these last two points in mind the UK caravan industry does have published advice about weight matching of car and caravan.

For novices the advice is to choose a caravan whose MTPLM is no greater than 85% of teh cars kerbweight. Only as experience is gained should the driver consider upgrading to close to 100%. I stress this is only advice, and it must never be used to exceed any legal limits, but it is at least a starting point for determining a match with a better chance of being satisfactory.

Good towing is achieved by ensuring both the car and the caravan are in top mechanical condition,
Weights are appropriate
Good loading practice to minimise end loading to keep Yaw inertia to a minimum
And good driving habits.

Speed is always a major factor when an outfit suffers instability, so be prepared to go slower if necessary.


EDIT posted after post 31 (below) by Otherclive.
OOPS. - I hadn't read the complete thread before composing the above, and I hadn't connected it with the opening post. Whilst what I have written in this comment is correct it as far as the mechanical combination of car and caravan are concerned but it doesn't address the issue of licence entitlements and the limit of B- only drivers to a combined MAM not exceeding 3500kg. - see my comment on that subject earlier in teh thread.

 

[otherclive]

Hi there,

First time posting and I am looking for some information regards what I can legally tow.

I have a company car which is a Peugeot 5008 with a max tow capacity of 1300kg. The gross weight of my car is 2200 Kg and as I passed my test after 1997 I can legally tow a combined weight of 3000KG, meaning the max i can tow on this point is also 1300kg. I can't change the car so need a caravan to fit, which as a family of 5 is proving tricky.

I am looking at a caravan that has an MIRO of 1120Kg and an MLTPM of 1317Kg.

My question is if I tow the caravan and put very minimal weight in it am I legal ? I know for a fact it will be under the 1300kg limit but I am unsure of whether it would go on the actual weight or the plated weights if I were to be pulled over.

i have spoke to a few dealers who have said it would be fine but 1 said it would be illegal. - seems to be a bit of a grey area.

Any help or advice would be much appreciated.

Thank you

G

If your car can tow 1300kg then the fact that the MPTLM is 1317kg would not necessarily make the combination illegal as you don't have to load the caravan to its MTPLM. However depending on your licence the 1317kg MTPLM if added to the cars GVW plate specification exceeds 3500kg it would make it illegal for you to tow it on a B licence even if both car and caravan weer unloaded.

 

[RogerL]

I've never felt that having to do a B E test is fair-why should someone have to do it simply because of age/date they did their driving test. However I now feel really really sorry for those who have invested in BE testing kit and those who have recently coughed up a lot of money for doing it!

The businesses involved will presumably switch to HGV training - it is a shame for all those who've stumped up the cash to take the test already - but just like those of us who stumped up time and money to pass the Advanced test there is the satisfaction of having proved their ability.

 

[Tandjo]

If BE is included on everyone’s licence in future, will we still have to have a medical at 70 or will we be able to self certify as with a normal licence? The fine print will be interesting.

 

[RogerL]

If BE is included on everyone’s licence in future, will we still have to have a medical at 70 or will we be able to self certify as with a normal licence? The fine print will be interesting.

"still" ?

At 70, the BE is carried forward subject to a self-declaration of fitness to drive - the medical requirement is for those wishing to keep their C1 or C1E to drive vehicles over 3500 kg, eg big motorhomes.

 

[Tandjo]

At 70, the BE is carried forward subject to a self-declaration of fitness to drive - the medical requirement is for those wishing to keep their C1 or C1E to drive vehicles over 3500 kg, eg big motorhomes.

Ah, question answered. I have just returned to caravanning after motorhoming and read the rules wrongly. Thank you.

 

[Hutch]

"still" ?

At 70, the BE is carried forward subject to a self-declaration of fitness to drive - the medical requirement is for those wishing to keep their C1 or C1E to drive vehicles over 3500 kg, eg big motorhomes.

Yes, that a pain in the bum, all of a sudden at 70 we cannot drive anything over 3500 kg , but can still tow, a combined unit of 7000 kg.

 

[RogerL]

Yes, that a pain in the bum, all of a sudden at 70 we cannot drive anything over 3500 kg , but can still tow, a combined unit of 7000 kg.

That's not correct - at age 70 you need to take a medical if you want to drive anything over 3500 kg - those driving vehicles over 3500 kg on a vocational licence will have been taking that medical throughout their working life.

There are some medical conditions which are an absolute bar to C/D groups - my implanted pacemaker/defibrillator is an example

 

[Hutch]

That's not correct - at age 70 you need to take a medical if you want to drive anything over 3500 kg - those driving vehicles over 3500 kg on a vocational licence will have been taking that medical throughout their working life.

There are some medical conditions which are an absolute bar to C/D groups - my implanted pacemaker/defibrillator is an example

Thanks Roger, I meant without taking the medical, I am debating wether I will do this in the next 6 months, in case we move to a Motor home above 3500 kg. Yet again another, ok today, tomorrow, no you can't.

 

[otherclive]

Thanks Roger, I meant without taking the medical, I am debating wether I will do this in the next 6 months, in case we move to a Motor home above 3500 kg. Yet again another, ok today, tomorrow, no you can't.

Friends of ours who have never camped caravanned or much else outdoors hired a MH about three months ago. Absolutely loved it and went out and bought a used one. It’s an Autotrail 2 berth at 3500 kg with an excellent payload. They didn’t want anything too large or the hassle of medical checks etc. They see it as a great means of visiting the kids and grandchildren in Cornwall but they’ve been to several other areas too, with plans into autumn and winter.

 

[G_Walk86]

Technically your assumption is wrong, becasue the cars maximum towed weight is only the portion of the trailers weight carried by its road wheels. The remaining portion forms the noseload which is not towed but carried by the tow vehicle. On the basis that the EU regulations (and the ones we continue to follow post brexit) which create this methodology expect the nose load will be 4% or more of the trailers all up weight, that leaves 96% or less carried by the trailers road wheels. If we apply these figures to your caravan 1317kg -96% = 1264kg on the road wheels with the balance of 53kg as the nose load.

Whilst technically that make your suggested combination within the cars specification, there are some other factors that might make it less compatible - but not necessarily impossible.

FIrstly the car only has a 1300kg towed weight limit and that would have been established using a near ideal trailer. Unfortunately caravans are far from ideal trailers being larger than the tow vehicle, with slab sides and frontal areas which makes a massive difference to the air resistance. so combined with the weight and air resistance smaller and less powerful tow vehicles will struggle more to keep things under good control.

The size shape and the length of overhangs of a caravan also makes them more susceptible to side winds and bow waves from other passing vehicles. The additional forces from these can cause the caravan to destabilise the lighter tow vehicles.

Very much with these last two points in mind the UK caravan industry does have published advice about weight matching of car and caravan.

For novices the advice is to choose a caravan whose MTPLM is no greater than 85% of teh cars kerbweight. Only as experience is gained should the driver consider upgrading to close to 100%. I stress this is only advice, and it must never be used to exceed any legal limits, but it is at least a starting point for determining a match with a better chance of being satisfactory.

Good towing is achieved by ensuring both the car and the caravan are in top mechanical condition,
Weights are appropriate
Good loading practice to minimise end loading to keep Yaw inertia to a minimum
And good driving habits.

Speed is always a major factor when an outfit suffers instability, so be prepared to go slower if necessary.


EDIT posted after post 31 (below) by Otherclive.
OOPS. - I hadn't read the complete thread before composing the above, and I hadn't connected it with the opening post. Whilst what I have written in this comment is correct it as far as the mechanical combination of car and caravan are concerned but it doesn't address the issue of licence entitlements and the limit of B- only drivers to a combined MAM not exceeding 3500kg. - see my comment on that subject earlier in teh thread.

Thanks - this is interesting.

my car is a 21 plate Peugeot 5008 , 1.5 diesel. Gross weight is 2200kg, kerb weight is 1590KG. So the 1317kg caravan mltpm is a good match for the 85% rule.

just seems the car has a low tow limit for some reason.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I've never felt that having to do a B E test is fair-why should someone have to do it simply because of age/date they did their driving test. However I now feel really really sorry for those who have invested in BE testing kit and those who have recently coughed up a lot of money for doing it!

You could use the same argument for quite a number of licence entitlement changes over the years. Sadly it's one of the vagaries of life and electing politicians.

Think about the outcry when EV keepers are asked to start paying annual road fund tax.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thanks - this is interesting.

my car is a 21 plate Peugeot 5008 , 1.5 diesel. Gross weight is 2200kg, kerb weight is 1590KG. So the 1317kg caravan mltpm is a good match for the 85% rule.

just seems the car has a low tow limit for some reason.

The 85% is NOT a rule, it never has been. It's only advice and has no authority what-so-ever. its origins are not clear, and no one has been able to verify the evidence on which its based. In general it may be sensible but it is also flawed and often given undue precedence over other arguably more important factors that lead to a good towing experience.

As for the a vehicles towed weight limit, that is set based on a series of tests carried out as part of the models type approval process. As with so many things like official MPG or economy figures, the tests are not necessarily a complete replica of real life events, but they mimic certain aspects against as set of criteria which is used to determine the maximum towed weight for any given model.

Historically there have been some surprises. Vauxhall used to use a 2.0 litre diesel engine and much of teh same drive train in both the Vectra and Zaffira. The vectra had a towed weight limit of 1600kg but the Zaffira only had a 1200kg limit. The difference was the Zaffira's engine bay cold not let enough fresh air in to keep the engine cool. There are other example out there where just looking at the engine and weight does not tell the whole story.

 

[JezzerB]

Nicely put Prof.

 

[Raywood]

Agreed the 85% figure is a recommendation used by the wo clubs and the NCC. It is possibly a bit outdated now with improvements in cars and caravans but the idea is sound. personally I would suggest 90% is probably more appropriate although there is no scientific basis for any figure these days and as the towing availability of different cars varies there can be no hard and fast rule. The advice though is for beginners and those experienced at towing can increase this a bit. You do have to be aware though that the car has to control the caravan, which is not an ideal trailer as the Prof says, so some common sense has to be used.
As to The Peugot in question here The makers will have tested it and the towing limit figure will be based on their findings so should be used. The figure as ever is based on the driveline rather than safety so in many cases where the towing limit is above the cars weight you should stick with the advice that the caravan should not weigh more than the cars unladen weight for your own safety.

 

[ProfJohnL]

One other aspect of the weight which I did not mention and in fact is the underlying criteria the must not be exceeded at any time is the the tow vehicle Gross Train Weight Limit. That is the final legal arbiter.

I definitely agree the present weight ratio advice is unsatisfactory:-

The present advice has been made very simple, but it uses criteria such as the tow vehicle's kerbweight - a significant figure that is often not practically verifiable or accurate, thus the output from the calculation is proportionally unverifiable or accurate.​

​

The calculation fails to take into account the tow vehicle's rated towing capacity from its specifications. So it is possible for the present calculation to produce an advisory towing ratio that actually exceeds the tow vehicles legal or mechanical capability.​

​

The present advice suggests novices should aim to be 85% or less, and experienced caravanners should not exceed 100%. There is no explanation why these values were chosen, and what defines an experienced caravanner.​

This whole process seems to be a fudge, and why I object when I see it being used inappropriately and given greater emphasis than it deserves, especially when it is only part of what goes to make a better towing experience - the parts that are often entirely omitted.

​

I do agree the advice needs to be refined and improved, but I actually suspect that if a full engineering scientific approach were adopted with a view to improving towing safety, its likely a to point to a lower advisory ratios than we presently have.

 

[Gafferbill]

That's not correct - at age 70 you need to take a medical if you want to drive anything over 3500 kg.

...........I think Hutch was correct and you do not have to take a medical at 70 to drive a vehicle combination of 7000 kgs with a B+E licence.
.......that is a vehicle up to 3500 kgs plus a trailer up to 3500 kgs.

IMO .....this is a redicilous aspect of the current law as without a trailer the limit is 3500kgs......above that and you need a C1 licence and a medical if over 70.

 

[Buckman]

Historically there have been some surprises. Vauxhall used to use a 2.0 litre diesel engine and much of teh same drive train in both the Vectra and Zaffira. The vectra had a towed weight limit of 1600kg but the Zaffira only had a 1200kg limit. The difference was the Zaffira's engine bay cold not let enough fresh air in to keep the engine cool. There are other example out there where just looking at the engine and weight does not tell the whole story.

Another abnormality is that although the Vauxhall vehicle could tow up to 1600kg, that was when it only had a driver. When you started adding passengers and luggage that amount needed to be deducted off the towing limit.

 

[RogerL]

Another abnormality is that although the Vauxhall vehicle could tow up to 1600kg, that was when it only had a driver. When you started adding passengers and luggage that amount needed to be deducted off the towing limit.

That in itself was an anomaly - Vauxhall's fine print specified that their Towing Limits were with just the driver but if you deducted the vehicle MAW from the Max Train Weight, most models allowed the full Towing Limit.

 

[otherclive]

Another abnormality is that although the Vauxhall vehicle could tow up to 1600kg, that was when it only had a driver. When you started adding passengers and luggage that amount needed to be deducted off the towing limit.

Some citroens and Renaults did that too, but a long while back.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Some citroens and Renaults did that too, but a long while back.

I don't know exactly which models, but some do it even now now.

It's fairly easy to spot if the quoted maximum towed weight specification is greater than the GTW-GVW on the tow vehicles data plate.