Check out our January 2017 issue

Jun 20, 2005
17,267
3,486
50,935
Visit site
The reports on the two new mid bathroom Baileys is interesting.
I see the attraction but wonder how well they will handle when all that space under the bed is used up :)

What I'd like to see from manufacturers is an area , square footage, figure for the walk zones from model to model. I suspect this will give me a better idea of space utilisation and whether a particular layout really does suit me or is it just an optical illusion B)
A volume reading of used and wasted space would also be interesting. eg look at the wastage of cubic capacity with those prefab round shower modules stuck into a rectangular space :woohoo:

To me maximising the available area and cubic capacity with user friendliness has always been a prerequisite. The Tardis comes to mind in the perfect world ;)
 
Apr 20, 2009
5,482
827
25,935
Visit site
Had a look at the Unicorn couple of weeks ago, not for us, the toilet obstructs the door to the left, the table would be a pain to get from under the bed and through the bathroom area, also think if you wanted to use the storage under the bed for larger items you would have to remove the table anyway.
 
Aug 23, 2009
3,167
4
20,685
Visit site
We were waiting with baited breath but the layout doesn't work for us either :( . DD those measurements would be particularly useful for us. Anything that shows where I could be wheeled and more importantly where I couldn't saves numerous phone calls to dealers asking them to measure different areas. I think we're a bit limited for choice at the moment. Full length front sofas for the girls, accessible fixed bed for me, toilet cubicle with no step amidships and good size kitchen. Compass have just launched a possible but I'd take a lot of convincing on losing our Bailey front window view. Bailey, if you're monitoring help please! :)
 
Nov 16, 2015
10,396
2,788
40,935
Visit site
After reading the previous posts, has anybody been asked by manufacturers about what is desired, I have sent feed back to Coachman about where and how many, 240 sockets could be placed. And shelfs in cupboards, 15 inch high storage holes without shelfs, radios in stupid places, they should be fitting usb ports now, window blinds, that dont really work. The list goes on. Ok Rant over, sticking to my present Coachman 560. Especially as I have just fitted a new carpet all the way through for £50.
Merry Christmas. To all.
 

Parksy

Moderator
Nov 12, 2009
11,904
2,399
40,935
Visit site
EH52ARH said:
After reading the previous posts, has anybody been asked by manufacturers about what is desired, I have sent feed back to Coachman about where and how many, 240 sockets could be placed. And shelfs in cupboards, 15 inch high storage holes without shelfs, radios in stupid places, they should be fitting usb ports now, window blinds, that dont really work. The list goes on. Ok Rant over, sticking to my present Coachman 560. Especially as I have just fitted a new carpet all the way through for £50.
Merry Christmas. To all.

In 2006/2007 the Personal Assistant to the CEO at Swift started to engage with touring caravan owners on various caravan related internet forums including this one.
A lot of information was exchanged, factory tours around Swifts were arranged (I went on a factory tour and also bagged a free wristwatch complete with Abbey logo that I wear to this day) and the next generation of Swift caravans were developed after using forum members as a giant real time focus group. The exchanges of information led to the introduction of the Swift caravan forum.
Bailey also began to engage with forum members and to monitor forums but this appears to no longer be the case.
Some would argue that there has been little or no improvement in caravan build quality despite the conversations between forum users who bought tourers and the manufacturers enlightened enough to risk their reputations with this interaction but caravan design in my opinion is streets ahead of what was on offer say, ten years ago.
There is much room still for improvement in build quality and QA, but at least instant mass communication gives owners of faulty caravans the opportunity to air their grievances, to confront manufacturers in some cases and to seek advice from their peers on how to obtain redress.
In turn, manufacturers have access to instant free of charge market research, Bailey introduced Alu Tec, Swift introduced one piece caravan side walls and much improved awning rails and grab handles and when things go pear shaped the manufacturers know about it instantly without waiting for a recurring problem to filter through their dealer network. Bailey for example re-designed the front of the Unicorn (was it?) because of stone chip damage, and Swift soon knew all about their leaky front panels.
There is less room for excuse and evasion tactics now, and if only we could harness the voting and buying power of caravanners via the internet with an entirely consumer focused website, not only would we force MPs to lobby parliament to make manufacturers rather than caravan dealers liable for repairs or replacement under SOGA, we could force down prices of caravans and all related goods and services.
We can but dream ........
 
Mar 14, 2005
17,557
3,051
50,935
Visit site
An excellent post from Parksy

Just to add a note about manufacturer responsibility, Whilst the CRA ( and SoGA before it) only has currency between seller and customer, there are at least two ways of directly targeting manufactures, but both need considerable coordination.

The first is a Class Action, where a group of customers with a common issue can jointly seek to challenge the manufacturer. this would only be against a specific manufacturer.

The second which can be slightly easier and could be against an industry rather than a single manufacturer, would be to use an organisation that has been granted the right to raise a Super Complaint.

The Consumers Association (Which? magazine) is one such, and if enough of its members can convince it, it can launch one.

But the basis of the CRA will not change, which establishes the obligation of a seller to its customer. You don't want to give retailers the right to shift the blame for selling unsatisfactory goods. They must accept the responsibility for choosing to deal in faulty goods in the first place.

Ultimately if a seller is getting too much greif from customers about sub standard goods, they will change their supplier/manufacturer.
 
May 7, 2012
8,496
1,755
30,935
Visit site
Back to the magazine and the Baileys. I am sorry but the bed sizes are simply too small for the caravan to be a viable option for most buyers, assuming they try it. Frankly I find it hard to believe that a firm the size of bailey could make a mistake that basic. Even though I can fit in the bed I would not buy it as I like to stretch out when there and cannot see it having a decent second hand value.
I am not sure if a transverse bed might have worked better as you could at least get a 6' bed that way but overall they seem to have cobbled two models together mainly from existing parts and body shells rather than working on getting it right and ended up with just too many compromises. It would be interesting to know what the dealers think about it as they have to sell the things to people who will not fit in the bed.
 
Jun 20, 2005
17,267
3,486
50,935
Visit site
Just read the section on the Vanmaster. £68k :woohoo:
Will it outperform and last longer than a Swift or Bailey. :unsure:

Following on from Parksy and The Prof points I still fail to understand why the motoring press are NOT slow in coming forward to criticise a car manufacturer for poor performance yet when it comes to caravans there is some masonic mafiosa journalism that flatly refuses to take up the banner on behalf of the buying public :angry:
 
Apr 20, 2009
5,482
827
25,935
Visit site
Dustydog said:
Just read the section on the Vanmaster. £68k :woohoo:
Will it outperform and last longer than a Swift or Bailey. :unsure:

Following on from Parksy and The Prof points I still fail to understand why the motoring press are NOT slow in coming forward to criticise a car manufacturer for poor performance yet when it comes to caravans there is some masonic mafiosa journalism that flatly refuses to take up the banner on behalf of the buying public :angry:

You know why Dusty, we have been here before, most of the major manufacturers PAY to advertise in the caravan magazines, knock there van, they withdraw there adverts, no revenue for the mags!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Parksy

Moderator
Nov 12, 2009
11,904
2,399
40,935
Visit site
To be fair, magazines such as Practical Caravan mainly review brand new caravans that haven't had time for faults to come to light, but they have pointed out some of the issues that have come to their notice from time to time without regard to any effect on advertising revenue.
Alastair Clements recent review of the Bailey Cabrera highlights some of the shortcomings such as the tight lounge space, the awkwardly placed hook up entry point and of course the short bed with no option to lengthen it and no outside access to under-bed storage.
The claim that caravan magazines, and in this instance Practical Caravan, only report the good points because of advertising revenue is a little bit unfair to my mind, but the professional review writers tend to be positive rather than negative in their style of writing.
Used caravans are compared with each other in every issue of Practical Caravan magazine and again, noticeable faults are mentioned and the caravans are compared with similar models from different manufacturers, all who advertise in caravan magazines.
It's true that the general ethos of caravan magazines tends to be positive, after all who would be prepared to pay good money for a subscription to read a list of other peoples complaints? :(
All magazines, no matter what the genre, rely on advertising revenue to survive, and there's a good chance that advertising revenue helps to pay for this website which is free of charge to users.
Details of complaints, build quality issues, design flaws and poor service are allowed and encouraged to be aired on the Practical Caravan forum, and caravan manufacturers are invariably named in the complaints.
The names of businesses affiliated to the leisure industry are not normally allowed to be published because there is access to only one side of the story.
Personally speaking I'd be more than happy to tour the length and breadth of the UK and continental Europe with my voice recorder, a really good camera and a word processor with a good expense account and company car to obtain the other side of the story from those named and shamed if it were allowed, but somehow I can't imagine forum members having a generous weekly whip round to pay for me to do that. :lol:
A completely independent internet based organisation with good access to legal advice could be effective in championing the rights of touring caravan buyers, no win no fee anyone? B)
 
Jul 11, 2015
482
0
0
Visit site
Parksy said:
EH52ARH said:
After reading the previous posts, has anybody been asked by manufacturers about what is desired, I have sent feed back to Coachman about where and how many, 240 sockets could be placed. And shelfs in cupboards, 15 inch high storage holes without shelfs, radios in stupid places, they should be fitting usb ports now, window blinds, that dont really work. The list goes on. Ok Rant over, sticking to my present Coachman 560. Especially as I have just fitted a new carpet all the way through for £50.
Merry Christmas. To all.

In 2006/2007 the Personal Assistant to the CEO at Swift started to engage with touring caravan owners on various caravan related internet forums including this one.
A lot of information was exchanged, factory tours around Swifts were arranged (I went on a factory tour and also bagged a free wristwatch complete with Abbey logo that I wear to this day) and the next generation of Swift caravans were developed after using forum members as a giant real time focus group. The exchanges of information led to the introduction of the Swift caravan forum.
Bailey also began to engage with forum members and to monitor forums but this appears to no longer be the case.
Some would argue that there has been little or no improvement in caravan build quality despite the conversations between forum users who bought tourers and the manufacturers enlightened enough to risk their reputations with this interaction but caravan design in my opinion is streets ahead of what was on offer say, ten years ago.
There is much room still for improvement in build quality and QA, but at least instant mass communication gives owners of faulty caravans the opportunity to air their grievances, to confront manufacturers in some cases and to seek advice from their peers on how to obtain redress.
In turn, manufacturers have access to instant free of charge market research, Bailey introduced Alu Tec, Swift introduced one piece caravan side walls and much improved awning rails and grab handles and when things go pear shaped the manufacturers know about it instantly without waiting for a recurring problem to filter through their dealer network. Bailey for example re-designed the front of the Unicorn (was it?) because of stone chip damage, and Swift soon knew all about their leaky front panels.
There is less room for excuse and evasion tactics now, and if only we could harness the voting and buying power of caravanners via the internet with an entirely consumer focused website, not only would we force MPs to lobby parliament to make manufacturers rather than caravan dealers liable for repairs or replacement under SOGA, we could force down prices of caravans and all related goods and services.
We can but dream ........

From Prof
ProfJohnL said:
An excellent post from Parksy

Just to add a note about manufacturer responsibility, Whilst the CRA ( and SoGA before it) only has currency between seller and customer, there are at least two ways of directly targeting manufactures, but both need considerable coordination.

The first is a Class Action, where a group of customers with a common issue can jointly seek to challenge the manufacturer. this would only be against a specific manufacturer.

The second which can be slightly easier and could be against an industry rather than a single manufacturer, would be to use an organisation that has been granted the right to raise a Super Complaint.

The Consumers Association (Which? magazine) is one such, and if enough of its members can convince it, it can launch one.

But the basis of the CRA will not change, which establishes the obligation of a seller to its customer. You don't want to give retailers the right to shift the blame for selling unsatisfactory goods. They must accept the responsibility for choosing to deal in faulty goods in the first place.

Ultimately if a seller is getting too much greif from customers about sub standard goods, they will change their supplier/manufacturer.'

Both of the above are pragmatic responses to the absolutely abysmal quality of Flagship caravans on sale today. The fatal flaw however is lethargy and acceptance of to put it bluntly, crap assembly of common poor quality parts that has been undertaken by repeat buyers over decades. Yes design and aesthetics have 'improved', integration of technology; however what hasn't changed is the poor attention to detail, standard methods of throwing together common poor quality parts by caravan assemblers. Note I say assemblers; if there were manufacturers producing caravans there would be an immediate uplift in quality. Manufacturing and assembly are poles apart.

The absolute crap quality of our Flagship Sterling Continental 570 that has suffered 25 failings of assembly/and of poor quality parts is well documented on SwiftTalk. Despite ST being established to open communication, it took direct correspondence to the MD to actually get traction to resolve the failings, as admitted by Swift. Platitudes are worthless. From other correspondents on ST the basic thrown together common poor quality parts are still being employed to date despite a Continuous Improvement programme supposedly implemented over the past 12 months at Cottingham.

Assemblers are doing dealers no favours by continuing to throw together poor quality products that dealers appear powerless to address in the interests of their customers. My advice would be to go direct to the top of the poor assemblers in event of issues with your thrown together caravan.

On a humorous side, our caravan runs at 1 fault per £1000 of purchase price. If modern manufacturing indicators were used it would be 1 fault per 1 million caravans built i.e. right first time.

Due to the faults we have on our flagship caravan Xmas away is cancelled as we don't want to spoilt it hoping nothing else falls apart. Hopefully in February we will have a reassembled caravan that will be useable.

This is our first caravan after 9 years of MH ownership where only 1 small casting broke and I failed to drain the water pump over winter.
 
Jun 20, 2005
17,267
3,486
50,935
Visit site
Thank you everyone for your thoughts which I almost agree with :p
For reasons beyond my dog brain our caravan manufacturers are still sourcing products and material from countries where QA is a fairy tale. A fact confirmed in the last 24 hours by a Mod.
The sad fact is the caravan industry is still decades behind in customer quality and satisfaction but why :silly:
A hand built Vanmaster is £68k and similar main stream UK job circa £25k.
OK . But that is no reason to offer sub standard products with all the inherent faults experienced today.
I've always said take a full tool kit away on your maiden voyage and most "niggles" are self fixing.
Leaks are different. Can we have an article about leaks , whose leak most and who best performs in fixing them under the extended Water Ingress Guarantees offered by the main streamers :cheer:
You will know about Michael E's long term damp problems with his Bucaneer Schooner. Maybe this is worthy of an article :unsure:
Ok Kev I guess you were right all along :) B)
If that happens then Caravan Journalism has turned a big corner in my book :cheer:
 
May 7, 2012
8,496
1,755
30,935
Visit site
We did at least learn whose caravans leaked least after the results of the last PC survey were revealed. It would help if we could have the complete list this time although I think I now who would be bottom unless things have changed considerably there.
 
Dec 6, 2013
200
3
18,585
Visit site
Back to the Baileys again ... and whilst I'm not a journalist by trade I do feel that the approach used by PC in their caravan reviews (looking individually at lounge, washroom, kitchen, beds etc) results in the point being missed sometimes. For example, these Baileys might have lovely washrooms and front seats, but who cares about that if the fixed end bed - the fundamental reason for buying a van with this layout - isn't big enough? And even if a few people decided they could live with that, I suspect they'd struggle to find anyone who thought the same to sell on to.

On a separate note, I have to say Switzerland looks lovely :D
 

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts