I have a 2007 Ford S Max that i use to tow aa Abbey GTS416. The clutch failed, burnt out on me in July 08 as I was moving van on site. I had previously experienced smell of burning while reversing but car was okay after cooling down. However in July clutch was totally burnt out. I tried claiming on car warranty but Ford are refusing to pay. Anyone out there who had similar problems and how did you get them resolved? Help please !
Clutch failure on Ford S Max 1.8 diesel
- Thread starter Kevin_374384952
- Start date
Kevin if you have burnt the clutch out as you say I can see no option for you but to pay up.
This would be a clear case of fair wear and tare
This would be a clear case of fair wear and tare
- Jun 20, 2005
- 19,320
- 4,815
- 50,935
Kevin
If I had a pound for everytime I've heard your story I'd be a rich man!
The times I've smelt clutches burning on site whilst people reverse is countless.
Try to reverse with clutch fully released if possible or try gently lifting the clutch with minimal revs. Try and get the whole reversing over quickly or use anothe rmethod.
Most 4x4 have a low ratio which is magic for rebversing because the clutch can be fully released and any excessive creep speed corrected with the foot brake.
Cheers
Alan
If I had a pound for everytime I've heard your story I'd be a rich man!
The times I've smelt clutches burning on site whilst people reverse is countless.
Try to reverse with clutch fully released if possible or try gently lifting the clutch with minimal revs. Try and get the whole reversing over quickly or use anothe rmethod.
Most 4x4 have a low ratio which is magic for rebversing because the clutch can be fully released and any excessive creep speed corrected with the foot brake.
Cheers
Alan
Seems to be a common problem,which some have put down to changes in clutch linings as a result of asbestos being banned.
My audi a4 with 1.9 tdi engine required a new clutch at 65,000 miles,after perhaps 5000 miles of towing.It particularly objected to the wife reversing the caravan up our 1 in 8 driveway,quite often covering itself in blue smoke.The kicker came when I went to my local independant VW/Audi service garage.Even at half the hourly rate of the audi dealer the bill came to over
My audi a4 with 1.9 tdi engine required a new clutch at 65,000 miles,after perhaps 5000 miles of towing.It particularly objected to the wife reversing the caravan up our 1 in 8 driveway,quite often covering itself in blue smoke.The kicker came when I went to my local independant VW/Audi service garage.Even at half the hourly rate of the audi dealer the bill came to over
- Nov 11, 2009
- 23,838
- 8,287
- 50,935
Hi,
because a conventional auto box witha fluid torque convertor transmits the torque via the fluid so there is no friction material to slip as in a normal clutch. Beware though VAG DSC 'auto' boxes as they are really a mechanised version of an normal box, and when manouevring, or creeping in traffic they slip clutches.
because a conventional auto box witha fluid torque convertor transmits the torque via the fluid so there is no friction material to slip as in a normal clutch. Beware though VAG DSC 'auto' boxes as they are really a mechanised version of an normal box, and when manouevring, or creeping in traffic they slip clutches.
No problemo. I have a conventional auto slushomatic.
I do like the idea of one of these DSC or CVT boxes to see what they are like. The VAG CVT is supposed to be excellent.
I do like the idea of one of these DSC or CVT boxes to see what they are like. The VAG CVT is supposed to be excellent.
- Nov 11, 2009
- 23,838
- 8,287
- 50,935
Frank. The only time you change a dual mass flywheel is if the garage is ripping you off, or it too is badly warn.To be badly warn in 65,000 means it has taken a lot of abuse from somewhere.
And as Alan says, the most common problem is that people keep slipping the clutch,for long periods of time,couple this to, in a diesel engines case the massive torque available from such low revs,just makes matters worse,and indeed not something you would have come across even with either a ford carpi 3.0 or a rover 3500. so today's clutch is superior to yester years,but the engines also have far greater low down torque.so Regardless of how many miles one has driven,it does not mean you are a master of the technique required for the new type of clutch release system.Which indecently is fitted to 50% of new cars.
quite simply if it starts to smoke you've already gone too far,and you need to let it cool down, or try a different approach.
And as Alan says, the most common problem is that people keep slipping the clutch,for long periods of time,couple this to, in a diesel engines case the massive torque available from such low revs,just makes matters worse,and indeed not something you would have come across even with either a ford carpi 3.0 or a rover 3500. so today's clutch is superior to yester years,but the engines also have far greater low down torque.so Regardless of how many miles one has driven,it does not mean you are a master of the technique required for the new type of clutch release system.Which indecently is fitted to 50% of new cars.
quite simply if it starts to smoke you've already gone too far,and you need to let it cool down, or try a different approach.
Fit a motor mover, I`ve seen a great deal of caravanners reversing back and forwards to get their van onto a pitch and also getting the van on and off drive ways. Clutches were never designed for that sort of use
When I was taught to drive in 1959! my instructor insisted that slipping the clutch in reverse was a no no and I have always retained that habit. It's hard to get into the practice but when mastered means you are more in control and in a manual car it means less wear on the clutch. Slipping or riding the clutch is condemmed when going forward so why is it tollerated just because you are going backwards?
Having said that reversing a trailer without slipping the clutch is extremely hard and even more so when reversing up hill. These modern Dual Mass flywheels don't seem to like it much iether and burn out quite quickly, judging from some of the posts on here.
Me - I don't even try and have used an Auto box for towing for years
Me - I don't even try
Having said that reversing a trailer without slipping the clutch is extremely hard and even more so when reversing up hill. These modern Dual Mass flywheels don't seem to like it much iether and burn out quite quickly, judging from some of the posts on here.
Me - I don't even try and have used an Auto box for towing for years
Me - I don't even try
Its virtually impossible to reverse a van into a pitch without slipping the clutch as the reverse gear of most cars is simply too high. Without clutch slip you'd be moving too fast!!
Also, if you have a modern diesel manual car it will have a dual mass flywheel. These are horrible complicated heavy expensive items that are prone to failure & manufacturers worldwide are striving to get rid of them (their purpose is to damp out vibration & harshness). They can fail/break up at any time without warning. A lot of places will tell your your clutch has gone when in fact it the DMF thats failed.
If you've got a manual car try & manouver the van into the pitch quickly. If you smell the clutch starting to burn then stop & let it cool down for 20mins before trying again. Or better still get a few helpers to push it in - or buy a mover.
Also, if you have a modern diesel manual car it will have a dual mass flywheel. These are horrible complicated heavy expensive items that are prone to failure & manufacturers worldwide are striving to get rid of them (their purpose is to damp out vibration & harshness). They can fail/break up at any time without warning. A lot of places will tell your your clutch has gone when in fact it the DMF thats failed.
If you've got a manual car try & manouver the van into the pitch quickly. If you smell the clutch starting to burn then stop & let it cool down for 20mins before trying again. Or better still get a few helpers to push it in - or buy a mover.
Glenn. dual mass flywheels are not fitted to all diesels,and indeed are also fitted to quite a few modern petrol engines as well.
As far as I am aware no manufacturer is trying to get rid of them!as you say they dampen the vibrations out,which with modern engines getting more and more complicated needs to be done far better than the old basic clutch mode.otherwise engines gearboxes drives shafts ect ect would wear out far more quickly than they do.
The reason they are big news these days is that there are millions fitted to cars compared to 15 years ago,and joe bloggs wouldn't know what it was all about.
There has always been a chance that a clutch would go prematurely since day dot. and now with so many dual mass flywheels being used,sure some go wrong,but like the old clutch system the numbers percentage wise are not that great.
and by the way good garages can tell if its the dual mass flywheel that has gone rather than just the clutch.
As far as I am aware no manufacturer is trying to get rid of them!as you say they dampen the vibrations out,which with modern engines getting more and more complicated needs to be done far better than the old basic clutch mode.otherwise engines gearboxes drives shafts ect ect would wear out far more quickly than they do.
The reason they are big news these days is that there are millions fitted to cars compared to 15 years ago,and joe bloggs wouldn't know what it was all about.
There has always been a chance that a clutch would go prematurely since day dot. and now with so many dual mass flywheels being used,sure some go wrong,but like the old clutch system the numbers percentage wise are not that great.
and by the way good garages can tell if its the dual mass flywheel that has gone rather than just the clutch.
G - I didn't just make it up!
I know for a fact that certain manufacturers are looking at removing the DMF's through my engineering contacts. The reasons for this are cost, weight & the failure rate of them.
I also know some people have far less mechanical sympathy than others & generally its those who suffer the problems.
I know for a fact that certain manufacturers are looking at removing the DMF's through my engineering contacts. The reasons for this are cost, weight & the failure rate of them.
I also know some people have far less mechanical sympathy than others & generally its those who suffer the problems.
Glenn nobody said you made it up,I just doubt it.
Simply because, the competition out there between manufacturers of the DMF system has been highlighted lately in all good professional mechanical magazines [to the trade]
The DMF fitted to lorries is compatible in size to the engine it is used in,and they are ultra reliable.
As I said there are millions out there so a few hundred cases,nay even a few or even tens of thousands failing at some point,would be still on par with a normal clutch set up/failure.
The cost is higher sure, but so are the costs for high pressure injectors. old days
Simply because, the competition out there between manufacturers of the DMF system has been highlighted lately in all good professional mechanical magazines [to the trade]
The DMF fitted to lorries is compatible in size to the engine it is used in,and they are ultra reliable.
As I said there are millions out there so a few hundred cases,nay even a few or even tens of thousands failing at some point,would be still on par with a normal clutch set up/failure.
The cost is higher sure, but so are the costs for high pressure injectors. old days
This does seem to be an increasing problem & I would suggest is not helped by a number of factors.
1. There is a tendency for people to tow vans that are heavier relative to the car that tows them.
2. Car manufacturers try to reduce weight to improve fuel economy which mean the smallest sized clutch that the can get away with & they do not design cars for reversing caravans uphill on soft ground.
3. Diesel engies are ever more torquey but the clutched fitted do not increase in size for a given engine size. They are thus put under increasing load.
4. Modern clutch materials are not as durable as in the "good" old asbestos days.
5. In order to get more forward gears in a given sized gearbox reverse gears have got higher which naturally means more load on the clutch.
Before the automatic guys clap too loudly I do wonder how prepared many of them are. Try these two questions:
1. Do you know what temperature your gearbox oil runs at? The life of an automatic is very linked to gearbox oil temperatures. Standard gearbox oil coolers are not designed for towing loads with most cars & the oil gets far too hot.
2. Does your gearbox oil get changed. It should whatever your manufacturer says. I know of one well known German make where changing the gearbox oil is NEVER done if you are serviced by a dealer yet the gearbox will last indefinitely if you do & possibly only 70000mls if you don't. Don't ask how many
1. There is a tendency for people to tow vans that are heavier relative to the car that tows them.
2. Car manufacturers try to reduce weight to improve fuel economy which mean the smallest sized clutch that the can get away with & they do not design cars for reversing caravans uphill on soft ground.
3. Diesel engies are ever more torquey but the clutched fitted do not increase in size for a given engine size. They are thus put under increasing load.
4. Modern clutch materials are not as durable as in the "good" old asbestos days.
5. In order to get more forward gears in a given sized gearbox reverse gears have got higher which naturally means more load on the clutch.
Before the automatic guys clap too loudly I do wonder how prepared many of them are. Try these two questions:
1. Do you know what temperature your gearbox oil runs at? The life of an automatic is very linked to gearbox oil temperatures. Standard gearbox oil coolers are not designed for towing loads with most cars & the oil gets far too hot.
2. Does your gearbox oil get changed. It should whatever your manufacturer says. I know of one well known German make where changing the gearbox oil is NEVER done if you are serviced by a dealer yet the gearbox will last indefinitely if you do & possibly only 70000mls if you don't. Don't ask how many
Hi
Without getting into clubbing each other with technicalities, I'm finding manouvering a caravan with an auto much easier.
We've always had manuals, but have swapped a Kia Sportage for a Sedona. The auto's for other reasons other than caravanning, by the way, but we're finding the auto brilliant for the van.
I must admit reversing with a manual, i always had to slip the clutch.
As for replacinbg clutches, Ive read quite a few posts and articles over the last year or two where people have had to replace clucthes especially with towing. Ford and VW/Audi seem to figure mostly. Don't know why nut I'm sure we'll soon find out.
Reagrds Tomo
Without getting into clubbing each other with technicalities, I'm finding manouvering a caravan with an auto much easier.
We've always had manuals, but have swapped a Kia Sportage for a Sedona. The auto's for other reasons other than caravanning, by the way, but we're finding the auto brilliant for the van.
I must admit reversing with a manual, i always had to slip the clutch.
As for replacinbg clutches, Ive read quite a few posts and articles over the last year or two where people have had to replace clucthes especially with towing. Ford and VW/Audi seem to figure mostly. Don't know why nut I'm sure we'll soon find out.
Reagrds Tomo
Good points about an Autobox and trend towards lighter cars towing heavier vans - I have heard the same story ATF changes on a certain prestigious German make too!
Proper off roaders from the top makers have an ATF overheat light to prevent the kind of thing you are talking about and a full size version will pull comfortably more than twice the weight of the average twin axle van so never even gets out of bed at 85% or less. The Design spec is to operate overland in deserts or the Arctic after all and the ATF light aint going to come on towing a van accross the Trossacs.
As for going slow in reverse, again no problem with a proper manual off roader - just slip into low ratio and no need for clutch slip even reversing up hill.
So if you don't want to spend on clutches you know what to do folks.
Proper off roaders from the top makers have an ATF overheat light to prevent the kind of thing you are talking about and a full size version will pull comfortably more than twice the weight of the average twin axle van so never even gets out of bed at 85% or less. The Design spec is to operate overland in deserts or the Arctic after all and the ATF light aint going to come on towing a van accross the Trossacs.
As for going slow in reverse, again no problem with a proper manual off roader - just slip into low ratio and no need for clutch slip even reversing up hill.
So if you don't want to spend on clutches you know what to do folks.
As a postscript to my previous post,having read the general response,I would add the following:
When you are having to reverse anything through a right angle and up a slope,some slipping of the clutch is required due to the high gearing of reverse gear.I still think the new clutch linings are not as good as the old ones.Older cars and other makes cope OK when they visit.
My garage is very good and retained both dual mass flywheel and clutch lining for my inspection.The clutch lining still had just a few mm left,but was well worn and glazed.The dual mass flywheel appeared to have two plates separated by springs,which were intended to damp vibrations.In this case the springs were so worn/useless that you could rotate the plates from end stop to end stop without resistance.
My local garage was approached to do the repair,but refused having just done a failed job on another Audi A4.The customer refused to let them replace the flywheel and the car stopped dead on its first run unable to make it up the twisting uphill ramp into an Exeter multi storey!
When you are having to reverse anything through a right angle and up a slope,some slipping of the clutch is required due to the high gearing of reverse gear.I still think the new clutch linings are not as good as the old ones.Older cars and other makes cope OK when they visit.
My garage is very good and retained both dual mass flywheel and clutch lining for my inspection.The clutch lining still had just a few mm left,but was well worn and glazed.The dual mass flywheel appeared to have two plates separated by springs,which were intended to damp vibrations.In this case the springs were so worn/useless that you could rotate the plates from end stop to end stop without resistance.
My local garage was approached to do the repair,but refused having just done a failed job on another Audi A4.The customer refused to let them replace the flywheel and the car stopped dead on its first run unable to make it up the twisting uphill ramp into an Exeter multi storey!
Interested to see all the posts on the burning issue of clutches.
I was beginning to think I had made a mistake buying a new Audi A4 and that it was not suited to towing. In fact it tows very well but does not like reversing with the van. (much smell & smoke within a few seconds) I believe that modern clutches (material/size?) are not up to it. I was so concerned about the cost implications of a failed clutch that we have invested in a Powertouch mover. Hopefully will preserve the clutch and my old back.
Bill Dawes
I was beginning to think I had made a mistake buying a new Audi A4 and that it was not suited to towing. In fact it tows very well but does not like reversing with the van. (much smell & smoke within a few seconds) I believe that modern clutches (material/size?) are not up to it. I was so concerned about the cost implications of a failed clutch that we have invested in a Powertouch mover. Hopefully will preserve the clutch and my old back.
Bill Dawes
Auto's we owned in the past had additional coolers fitted to cope with towing, in more recent times I've always been told that our Merc, BMW and Audi auto's will cope fine and they have.
I change the fluid myself as a precaution and change oil and filter between services.
I change the fluid myself as a precaution and change oil and filter between services.
Very wise move fitting a motor mover, the amount of caravanners that I see on sites trying to reverse their vans onto pitches smelling of clutch wear, even when they have motor movers fitted.
Royston
I bought a new Audi A4 Avant 1.9tdi Quattro Sport in 2003 and ran it for 72,000 miles,towing no more than 5000 miles.I very carefully ran it in for the first few 1000 miles and then took delivery of my Bailey Pageant Vendee (1321kgs mptlm)Weight of car was given as 1632kgs,so a good match.
It towed well in terms of control,but always with a disconcerting rear end bobbing at low speeds,despite the stiffer and lower suspension.In the end I steadily reduced the noseweight on the caravan to 65-70 kgs to improve this.
By the time it reached 65,000 miles it needed a new clutch and new rear shocks and springs,as its ride height at the back had dropped by 1.5".After replacement the ride height returned to normal.Total cost was
I've read that Merc autoboxes have a big problem. The oil cooler is built into the water radiator & there's a common fault with the joints that allows water to contaminate the gearbox oil resulting in transmission failure. Repair bills are in the multiple thousands....
A few hundred for a new clutch doesn't seem too bad now does it??? lol.
A few hundred for a new clutch doesn't seem too bad now does it??? lol.
Facebook
Twitter