Cost to buyer returning van to retailer

[Jcloughie]

Thanks 😏

 

[Buckman]

The Manufacturers warranty is between you and the manufacturer that why its called a manufacturers warranty. The dealer is an agent for the manufacturer and is instructed by the manufacturer.

The manufacture cannot deny liability for matters covered by their warranty even if the supplying dealer is no longer trading.

But, the manufacture is not liable for any matters outside of their warranty terms that would otherwise be covered by your statutory rights, as those rights are exclusively with your seller.

Can you please clarify? How can the manufacturer's warranty be between the manufacturer and the consumer when it is the trader that claims from the manufacturer to put right anything that has gone wrong. The consumer cannot approach the manufacturer to rectify an issue as there is no contract between the manufacturer and the consumer? Can a consumer take a manufacturer to court if they do not honour the warranty?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Can you please clarify? How can the manufacturer's warranty be between the manufacturer and the consumer when it is the trader that claims from the manufacturer to put right anything that has gone wrong. The consumer cannot approach the manufacturer to rectify an issue as there is no contract between the manufacturer and the consumer? Can a consumer take a manufacturer to court if they do not honour the warranty?

Yes, because it's a contract.

 

[Buckman]

Yes, because it's a contract.

How and why is it a contract as the consumer has not bought from the manufacturer? There is no signed contract between consumer and manufacturer and ther eis nothing in the T&Cs and what is printed in the owner's handbook cannot be regarded as a contract.

 

[otherclive]

Surely it’s an Express warranty where the makers written information communicated in sales and marketing materials as well as owners manuals defines their obligations and as long as the owner complies the warranty is valid. There’s Implied or written warranties too. Contracts do not have to be written or signed but from experience dealing with some mega ones it does help 😁

 

[Buckman]

Surely it’s an Express warranty where the makers written information communicated in sales and marketing materials as well as owners manuals defines their obligations and as long as the owner complies the warranty is valid. There’s Implied or written warranties too. Contracts do not have to be written or signed but from experience dealing with some mega ones it does help 😁

I do not know the legal stand point which is why I am asking. BTW take into account that most buyers will only read the owner's manual after purchase as that is the first time that they see the manual. Either way can the consumer take the manufacturer to court for not honouring the warranty and would the consumer stand even a remote chance of winning?

 

[otherclive]

I do not know the legal stand point which is why I am asking. BTW take into account that most buyers will only read the owner's manual after purchase as that is the first time that they see the manual. Either way can the consumer take the manufacturer to court for not honouring the warranty and would the consumer stand even a remote chance of winning?

You could read up on what Express or Implied warranties are. But the caravan makers warranty is Express. The first time you get to be aware of it is when you read adverts, then brochures, then if you buy a caravan it’s written down in the Owners Manual or Service Handbook. It cannot be any clearer can it?
Why this obsession with court action? Any individual in UK can take anyone else to court but can you or anyone else predict the outcome of any case? The court will decide based on the case presented by the respective parties. That’s how it has always been in any civil or criminal litigation.


https://hjsolicitors.co.uk/article/contracts-express-and-implied-terms/

 

[Buckman]

You could read up on what Express or Implied warranties are. But the caravan makers warranty is Express. The first time you get to be aware of it is when you read adverts, then brochures, then if you buy a caravan it’s written down in the Owners Manual or Service Handbook. It cannot be any clearer can it?
Why this obsession with court action? Any individual in UK can take anyone else to court but can you or anyone else predict the outcome of any case? The court will decide based on the case presented by the respective parties. That’s how it has always been in any civil or criminal litigation.


https://hjsolicitors.co.uk/article/contracts-express-and-implied-terms/

I was asking about court action as court action is normally based on current legislation and I have not come across anything to indicate that a manufacturer could be liable if they do not honour a warranty. I don't think there is any relationship between the manufactuer and the consumer therefore Express or Implied terms may not be the solution? I am finding this discussion quite interesting and hopefully learning something along the way.

 

[otherclive]

I was asking about court action as court action is normally based on current legislation and I have not come across anything to indicate that a manufacturer could be liable if they do not honour a warranty. I don't think there is any relationship between the manufactuer and the consumer therefore Express or Implied terms may not be the solution? I am finding this discussion quite interesting and hopefully learning something along the way.

You are correct in so far that courts base their decisions taking account of current legislation, but in civil cases case law also has an important part to play particularly if the case isn't well defined by current legislation. And of course civil law courts will also make decisions based on all of the facts, legislation etc and sometimes create new case law in their decisions.

I really cannot find anything more to help you decide whether there is a a relationship between the manufacturer and the buyer of the caravan. Express warranty definition says it all. Implied terms tend to be examined by courts but by then the litigants costs will have started to mount. Hence my approach both at work and play has been to use the threat of court action where agreement cannot be reached, but don't use it. It costs too much money, diverts resources and sours future relationships.

On that basis i am "Out"

 

[RogerL]

Can you please clarify? How can the manufacturer's warranty be between the manufacturer and the consumer when it is the trader that claims from the manufacturer to put right anything that has gone wrong. The consumer cannot approach the manufacturer to rectify an issue as there is no contract between the manufacturer and the consumer? Can a consumer take a manufacturer to court if they do not honour the warranty?

That's how agents work.

 

[Buckman]

You are correct in so far that courts base their decisions taking account of current legislation, but in civil cases case law also has an important part to play particularly if the case isn't well defined by current legislation. And of course civil law courts will also make decisions based on all of the facts, legislation etc and sometimes create new case law in their decisions.

I really cannot find anything more to help you decide whether there is a a relationship between the manufacturer and the buyer of the caravan. Express warranty definition says it all. Implied terms tend to be examined by courts but by then the litigants costs will have started to mount. Hence my approach both at work and play has been to use the threat of court action where agreement cannot be reached, but don't use it. It costs too much money, diverts resources and sours future relationships.

On that basis i am "Out"

Thanks for some really helpful replies in plain English.

 

[otherclive]

Thanks for some really helpful replies in plain English.

Cheers

 

[Raywood]

Agreed, the manufacturer gives you the warranty for buying their product as opposed to another firms. This is not strictly a contract required to be given and so the manufacturer can put in whatever terms it wishes and thye benifits are additional to your rights under the CRA . The Unfair Contracts legislation therefore is very dubious as a route to take if you do not like it and I have seen no cases reported that may give a definitive answer as to nit being available or not. Other than for the first year and damp claims, the warranties do tend to be very poor.

 

[ProfJohnL]

How and why is it a contract as the consumer has not bought from the manufacturer? There is no signed contract between consumer and manufacturer and ther eis nothing in the T&Cs and what is printed in the owner's handbook cannot be regarded as a contract.

Wrong.
For a new purchaser to be covered by the manufacturers warranty, you have to sign the registration document which is the acceptance of the warranty T&C's. It is a fully signed contract.

 

[Dustydog]

The Manufacturers warranty is between you and the manufacturer that why its called a manufacturers warranty. The dealer is an agent for the manufacturer and is instructed by the manufacturer.

The manufacture cannot deny liability for matters covered by their warranty even if the supplying dealer is no longer trading.

But, the manufacture is not liable for any matters outside of their warranty terms that would otherwise be covered by your statutory rights, as those rights are exclusively with your seller.

Prof,
This is an extract from Swifts latest Warranty. What do you think of the last sentence? I did think your last post was correct 🤔🤔🤔
It is also worth noting most manufacturers offer the opportunity of transfer of the warranty to a future purchaser. Note transfer. Ie from the original customer! Looking back on my old documentation it is clear I signed acceptance of Bailey’s t&c for the water ingress guarantee. I must assume most manufacturers are the same.

Buckman,
I hope you haven’t been misled on your paper work??

SWIFT GROUP WARRANTY
CARAVAN WARRANTY
(2019 MODELS ONWARDS)
All the illustrations and descriptive matter in the handbook are intended to give a general idea of the caravan. Changing market and supply situations and our policy of continuous product development may prevent us from maintaining the exact specifications detailed in the handbook. We therefore reserve the right to alter specifications as materials and conditions demand.
Dealers are not agents of Swift Group Limited ("Swift") and have absolutely no authority to bind the manufacturer by any express or implied undertaking or

 

[Raywood]

In our case you went on to the manufacturers website and completed a form there which they acknowledged, but it should still be valid legally.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dusty,
Perhaps "Agent " was the wrong word, I may have used the wrong word to describe the relationship between the manufacturer's warranty scheme and the dealer. But the remainder of Swift's statement concurs with the point I was making, i.e. the manufacturers warranty is controlled by the manufacturer not the dealer.

And Raywood, yes it is valid, but the point is you have to take positive action to agree to accept the manufacturers warranty, it is not automatically engaged when you purchase a new caravan. It is also why if a caravan changes hands, the new owner has to apply to the manufacturer to take on teh remainder of any of the manufacturers warranty.

If you don't like the Manufacturers terms and conditions don't sign the acceptance/registration form - but then you wont have the benefit of the manufacturers Warranty.

 

[Marsh Harrier]

Very interesting comments.

I do ponder how much impact covid is going to have concerning our rights under either a warranty or cRA?

If we consider, that our laws and legislation are written in such a way that creates grey areas, purely because often a law or legislation can not be written in such a manner that covers all eventualities or combination of facts, rights or wrongs etc.

So area's are left grey so it can be argued in court to set a president, So the president will be made on the court case of Fred Firkin V the what ever company....

Problem is to set the President, you need very deep pockets to pay the QC....

So some of CRA may change, if somebody decides an aspect concerning 'fair right' have been highly impacted by the Covid Lockdown, that disadvantaged the consumer

 

[ProfJohnL]

I do ponder how much impact covid is going to have concerning our rights under either a warranty or cRA? m

C19 has affected some warranties. Most caravan manufactures who have stipulated service or inspection intervals have extended their periods of grace to get them completed.

But as the CRA does not set out service intervals or other maintenance activities that need to be conducted by a particular date, there is no reason for the CRA to be revised. And I don't think there is any real prospect for it.

 

[Buckman]

Wrong.
For a new purchaser to be covered by the manufacturers warranty, you have to sign the registration document which is the acceptance of the warranty T&C's. It is a fully signed contract.

Does that mean that all those people towing with commercial vehicles i.e. pickups, have invalidated the warranty on their caravans as in most owner's manuals it is stated that the caravan should not be towed behind a commercial vehicle?
BTW you do not have to sign the registration document because it is not compulsory as the caravan is not officially registered to any government organisation.

 

[Raywood]

Potentially yes. Possibly they will never know or ask, unless it is a broken chassis.
The warranty sets out the terms and conditions and any failure to follow them is at your peril.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Does that mean that all those people towing with commercial vehicles i.e. pickups, have invalidated the warranty on their caravans as in most owner's manuals it is stated that the caravan should not be towed behind a commercial vehicle?
BTW you do not have to sign the registration document because it is not compulsory as the caravan is not officially registered to any government organisation.

The issue about towing behind commercial vehicles has been debated at length elsewhere on the forum, I'm not sure if "most" manufacturers do still contain that limitation, but in a nutshell, if your warranty policy does have that stipulation then
if the manufacturer were aware you were or had used a commercial vehicle, then they could revoke the warranty. This is one term that might be a candidate for an unfair contract term. If you want to explore this subject I suggest you start a new thread.

You are quite right, you are not obliged to sign the document that registers you to the warranty scheme, but then you wouldn't have the manufacturer's warranty to call on if a problem arises. I never mentioned it to be a government document. Simple take it or leave it.

 

[otherclive]

Wrong.
For a new purchaser to be covered by the manufacturers warranty, you have to sign the registration document which is the acceptance of the warranty T&C's. It is a fully signed contract.

The issue about towing behind commercial vehicles has been debated at length elsewhere on the forum, I'm not sure if "most" manufacturers do still contain that limitation, but in a nutshell, if your warranty policy does have that stipulation then
if the manufacturer were aware you were or had used a commercial vehicle, then they could revoke the warranty. This is one term that might be a candidate for an unfair contract term. If you want to explore this subject I suggest you start a new thread.

You are quite right, you are not obliged to sign the document that registers you to the warranty scheme, but then you wouldn't have the manufacturer's warranty to call on if a problem arises. Simple take it or leave it.

What is the definition of a “commercial” vehicle? This one comes around regularly in relation to warranty and using sites. A quick search will show that where owners have asked the maker about using vehicles like a Navarro or Musso etc the makers reply has been positive.

 

[RogerL]

What is the definition of a “commercial” vehicle? This one comes around regularly in relation to warranty and using sites. A quick search will show that where owners have asked the maker about using vehicles like a Navarro or Musso etc the makers reply has been positive.

The definition of a commercial vehicle used to be simple - but the use of crew cabs has blurred that distinction..

The big irony is that most caravan dealers and manufacturers use commercial vehicles to deliver and move caravan around.

 

[otherclive]

The definition of a commercial vehicle used to be simple - but the use of crew cabs has blurred that distinction..

The big irony is that most caravan dealers and manufacturers use commercial vehicles to deliver and move caravan around.

I’d agree it’s so Woolley as to be meaningless. It’s not just crew cab pickups you could see a Transit based panel motorhome being okay. But the equivalent Transit used by your glazing contractor excluded. Perhaps “ hire or reward “ might come back into the offing 🤐