Damp Caravan

[DayDreamer]

Looks like the caravan is repairable but I would not rust the dealer given what you have said so far. The caravan sounds to be nowhere near what the advert must have said so mis description would be an added problem for the dealer. I hope you have a copy of the advert to show what the dealer said in it. I would probably still leave it to the card company as they should be easier to deal with.
I can see no basis for putting the caravan into storage and trying to recover the cost so I would not do that, but if you do you will need to get your insurers approval.

Yes I took a screenshot of the advert.

I was just thinking if it seems as if it's going to drag on, I could put it in storage and buy another so I can get on with my house renovation plans. It's a huge beast (twin axle 25' long) and there's no room for two!

 

[otherclive]

Yes I took a screenshot of the advert.

I was just thinking if it seems as if it's going to drag on, I could put it in storage and buy another so I can get on with my house renovation plans. It's a huge beast (twin axle 25' long) and there's no room for two!

You would need to notify the seller of your intent to store the caravan, although storage sites with slots are rare as hens teeth theses days. I know it’s possibly inconvenient but could you not return it to the seller to speed things up and ask them to repay your fuel costs?

 

[ProfJohnL]

I am very aware we only have one side of the story, and my comments are therefore based on the presumption the OP's comments are an honest representation of the facts.

Given what we have been told so far, and the way the seller has so far responded, and the most recent revelation that the seller has only been trading for 1 year (at least in this company guise) I am increasingly of the opinion concerned that seller should not be trusted to even act with honour on his word.

Possession is often said to be 9/10's of the law, and in this case I would suggest this is true. Someone has suggested returning the caravan to the seller for storage, There is no way I would do that given the history unless I could walk away with the money in my hand or in a secured account. If you did leave it with the seller for storage, he has both your money and the goods and you could lose twice.

At least if you have the caravan which even in its present condition it has some value.

Do follow the Which? advice carefully.

 

[DayDreamer]

You would need to notify the seller of your intent to store the caravan, although storage sites with slots are rare as hens teeth theses days. I know it’s possibly inconvenient but could you not return it to the seller to speed things up and ask them to repay your fuel costs?

It's 250 miles away and I would have to take a day off work. I'm a contractor so don't get holiday pay. Plus I've never towed a caravan before! My intention was not to move it (aside from getting it on the lawn with it's AWD motor mover) . If I move it to storage (even that worries me) it would be locally and I'd probably find a company to do it for me!

 

[otherclive]

I am very aware we only have one side of the story, and my comments are therefore based on the presumption the OP's comments are an honest representation of the facts.

Given what we have been told so far, and the way the seller has so far responded, and the most recent revelation that the seller has only been trading for 1 year (at least in this company guise) I am increasingly of the opinion concerned that seller should not be trusted to even act with honour on his word.

Possession is often said to be 9/10's of the law, and in this case I would suggest this is true. Someone has suggested returning the caravan to the seller for storage, There is no way I would do that given the history unless I could walk away with the money in my hand or in a secured account. If you did leave it with the seller for storage, he has both your money and the goods and you could lose twice.

At least if you have the caravan which even in its present condition it has some value.

Do follow the Which? advice carefully.

Prof
If you are referring to my post I did not suggest returning it to the seller for storage. That’s a risky and pointless exercise. My suggestion was to return it to the seller in order to speed up the resolution of this dispute. IE the seller refunds the buyer when the caravan is delivered. But given the doubts on the sellers trustworthiness even that might be a risk.

 

[DayDreamer]

I am very aware we only have one side of the story, and my comments are therefore based on the presumption the OP's comments are an honest representation of the facts.

Given what we have been told so far, and the way the seller has so far responded, and the most recent revelation that the seller has only been trading for 1 year (at least in this company guise) I am increasingly of the opinion concerned that seller should not be trusted to even act with honour on his word.

Possession is often said to be 9/10's of the law, and in this case I would suggest this is true. Someone has suggested returning the caravan to the seller for storage, There is no way I would do that given the history unless I could walk away with the money in my hand or in a secured account. If you did leave it with the seller for storage, he has both your money and the goods and you could lose twice.

At least if you have the caravan which even in its present condition it has some value.

Do follow the Which? advice carefully.

Exactly this!

But what do I do if he turns up to collect it and does not arrange a transfer before leaving with it? If I refuse to let him go with it, have I just cancelled my rejection?

 

[Buckman]

Exactly this!

But what do I do if he turns up to collect it and does not arrange a transfer before leaving with it? If I refuse to let him go with it, have I just cancelled my rejection?

Tricky one if he wants to collect without refunding you as he will try and claim that he has to be given one chance at repair before refunding.
Sadly for him within the first 30 days, you have the right to rejection and a full refund. He cannot even charge admin fees.
I would guess that he has been doing this previously and is well aware how to work the system.

 

[otherclive]

Tricky one if he wants to collect without refunding you as he will try and claim that he has to be given one chance at repair before refunding.
Sadly for him within the first 30 days, you have the right to rejection and a full refund. He cannot even charge admin fees.
I would guess that he has been doing this previously and is well aware how to work the system.

+1.
with the speed you have dealt with your complaint you are well placed for a refund via rejection. Don’t forget by putting your complaint in you have effectively stopped the 30 day clock.

 

[DayDreamer]

Exactly this!

But what do I do if he turns up to collect it and does not arrange a transfer before leaving with it? If I refuse to let him go with it, have I just cancelled my rejection?

And as always the devil is in the detail and which don't cover this scenario :-(

 

[otherclive]

And as always the devil is in the detail and which don't cover this scenario :-(

Unfortunately very few such disputes meet the “ staff answer” and invariably require patience and diligence on behalf of the buyer. But given the strength of our consumer protection laws most sellers will see the advantage of reaching a settlement. At least you have the additional protection of section 75.

 

[DayDreamer]

Unfortunately very few such disputes meet the “ staff answer” and invariably require patience and diligence on behalf of the buyer. But given the strength of our consumer protection laws most sellers will see the advantage of reaching a settlement. At least you have the additional protection of section 75.

You hit the nail right on the head w

Prof
If you are referring to my post I did not suggest returning it to the seller for storage. That’s a risky and pointless exercise. My suggestion was to return it to the seller in order to speed up the resolution of this dispute. IE the seller refunds the buyer when the caravan is delivered. But given the doubts on the sellers trustworthiness even that might be a risk.

BTW just to clarify the dealer is suggesting exactly that, I don't think I expanded, but he said return it to his storage site (he won't be there), whereupon he will arrange for it's inspection to decided how much damage my inspection did (as if caravan motor specialist tear up caravans inspecting them) and then after that he would refund me! Now that sounds suspicious to me! Is he going to make up damages to make a big fat deduction! Is he in fact going to do any refund!

 

[otherclive]

You hit the nail right on the head w


BTW just to clarify the dealer is suggesting exactly that, I don't think I expanded, but he said return it to his storage site (he won't be there), whereupon he will arrange for it's inspection to decided how much damage my inspection did (as if caravan motor specialist tear up caravans inspecting them) and then after that he would refund me! Now that sounds suspicious to me! Is he going to make up damages to make a big fat deduction! Is he in fact going to do any refund!

I’d agree your suspicions given the sellers attitude so far.

 

[DayDreamer]

I have plenty of experience with rejections and taking on dealers etc and have been successful using Which Legal Services. Firstly a letter needs to be sent stating the issues and with a copy of the report. In the letter advise that you are rejecting the caravan under clauses 9, 10 and 11 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015. Also as per clause 19 & 20 of the Act you have the right to reject. Send the letter from a post office and ask for Proof of posting. In addition, you can email them, but do both. Give him 7 working days to respond.

However a double whammy by using S75 of the Consumer Credit Act, but be aware usng S75 can be a long drawn our process and take months to resolve. Using CRA 2015 as above is normally quicker as the delaer knows if it goes as far a s Trading standards the dealer can be shut down altogether.

Trading standards will be non to happy with him, his first response was to say he sold used caravans therefore gave no refunds or warranty but might pay for a repair. I think this is illegal to to mislead customers as by entering into the sale/purchase we have an implied contract under CRA that says he must give a refund!

Now, we've moved on a bit, but he's still giving misinformation saying I must take it back to him and he won't be refunding delivery. Plus he's trying to claim damages from me saying my inspection 'devastated' his caravan (as if any caravan specialist would do such a thing).

I think this is disgraceful behaviour, especially as it must mean he's no intention of repairing the dry rot under the fixed bed (it's internal not external) , because to do so he'd have to take out the locker tray and all the vinyl under the bed anyhow! And it is this precious vinyl under the screwed down locker tray (how many holes has that put in the vinyl) that apparently now has a tear cut which he claims was not there previously. (This is his idea of devastation).

So I think perhaps I should report him to trading standards as his intentions seem clear and some poor unsuspecting person will end up with this caravan with the dry rot unfixed. Just not sure if that will complicate things and be seen as revengeful! Or is it my duty to save fellow purchasers.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Galant as it may be to help prevent subsequent purchasers from getting into trouble with this seller, your first need and duty is to protect yourself from this seller.

I'd suggest you need to secure the caravan so it cannot be removed from its pitch without you or your authorised representative being present.

Inform the seller the caravan is not be touched or taken by them or any of their subcontractors without you or your authorised representative being present. If they attempt to remove it without you or your authorised representative being present, it is theft, and report it as such to the police.

You should ensure that if or when the seller is allowed to take caravan, that you or.... film or take plenty of pictures of the inside and outside of the caravan to verify the condition at that point, and to film the seller (or his subcontractors) actually moving it off site.

You should also arrange for the person who carried out the inspection (assuming he/she is a registered professional) to write a condition report and actions taken to verify the evidence of rot. Hopefully they have also taken pictures of the conditions, so yet again there may be clear evidence of condition before it has been collected by the seller.

Keep all this evidence safe and indexed for easy retrieval should you need to take court action either for CRA or Section 75.

The CRA does not seek to give either the seller or the purchaser an advantage. Basically if you are sold faulty goods then it should be up to the seller to ensure the remedy inconveniences you as little as possible, and you should end up in the position of either having the refund, or goods in a condition as if no fault had occurred.

Remember the caravan is still your property until an agreed refund has been made, so to a large extent you can call the shots.

With regards any other subsequent purchaser's, it would be great if your situation causes the seller to be prevented from fleecing others, but the reality is that all buyers should be aware and do all the necessary inspections and checks before agreeing to make purchases.

Edit I think you should make Trading Standards aware of this seller. It quite possible they may already have some other reports about him, and your's could be the straw that levers TS into action. They may also have some useful advice for you.

 

[Buckman]

Sadly you can no longer raise a complaint directly with Trading Standards as it has to go through the Citizens Advice Bureau first.

As stated previously, he can inspect the caravan before he removes the caravan because once he removes the caravan then the game is on. Once the inspection is done by him, he should be able to do a BACs transfer to your account.

To be honest, he is going to try every trick in the book to avoid returning any of your money. However it is a criminal offence to go against legislation whether CRA 2015 or S75.

 

[woodsieboy]

Just out of interest, you say you bought the caravan after viewing video and under distance selling regulations, so did you see it in the flesh before parting with your money?

 

[DayDreamer]

Galant as it may be to help prevent subsequent purchasers from getting into trouble with this seller, your first need and duty is to protect yourself from this seller.

I'd suggest you need to secure the caravan so it cannot be removed from its pitch without you or your authorised representative being present.

Inform the seller the caravan is not be touched or taken by them or any of their subcontractors without you or your authorised representative being present. If they attempt to remove it without you or your authorised representative being present, it is theft, and report it as such to the police.

You should ensure that if or when the seller is allowed to take caravan, that you or.... film or take plenty of pictures of the inside and outside of the caravan to verify the condition at that point, and to film the seller (or his subcontractors) actually moving it off site.

You should also arrange for the person who carried out the inspection (assuming he/she is a registered professional) to write a condition report and actions taken to verify the evidence of rot. Hopefully they have also taken pictures of the conditions, so yet again there may be clear evidence of condition before it has been collected by the seller.

Keep all this evidence safe and indexed for easy retrieval should you need to take court action either for CRA or Section 75.

The CRA does not seek to give either the seller or the purchaser an advantage. Basically if you are sold faulty goods then it should be up to the seller to ensure the remedy inconveniences you as little as possible, and you should end up in the position of either having the refund, or goods in a condition as if no fault had occurred.

Remember the caravan is still your property until an agreed refund has been made, so to a large extent you can call the shots.

With regards any other subsequent purchaser's, it would be great if your situation causes the seller to be prevented from fleecing others, but the reality is that all buyers should be aware and do all the necessary inspections and checks before agreeing to make purchases.

Edit I think you should make Trading Standards aware of this seller. It quite possible they may already have some other reports about him, and your's could be the straw that levers TS into action. They may also have some useful advice for you.

Thanks for the detailed advice. The caravan is now insured and a condition is that is fitted with wheel locks, which it is. (Another expense). So it's going nowhere without me knowing. There's a tracker in it too.

I bought it via distance selling so I didn't have the opportunity to inspect it. (Thought I was safe cos there's 14 day no fault returns on distance sales). He advertised it as in 'outstanding condition' and it had a recent service and damp inspection and cris report, I also had photos and a video. However, seems a floor can rot from the inside too. There's a note on his damp report that says external check only as its AllTech construction. Now I think that was a crafty move as it means the floor was inspected externally only! Whereas my guy inspected both sides.

Of course I never intend returning it and if I just changed my mind I would bear the costs. But It's only fair that I shouldn't be worse off cos he sold me a faulty van! He never told me about the bathroom floor repair, he tried to conceal it! I'm not sure if he knew about the dry rot or other damp. But he knew what he is was doing re bathroom and he should now bear the costs of his decitful endeavours!

 

[DayDreamer]

Just out of interest, you say you bought the caravan after viewing video and under distance selling regulations, so did you see it in the flesh before parting with your money?

I paid for it when it was delivered to my home and placed on the drive. I never visited the dealers premises.

On day one only saw the outside, but even if I'd gone inside there would be nothing to see as the carpets were all stuck together with protection tape. Of course had I insisted he took them up (took me a good half hour to unstick them next day) I would have noticed the different vinyl in the bathroom. But I would never have found the dry rot as I wouldn't be unscrewing the liner.

I guess I thought with his reports and right to return plus visa payment (so section 75) I was covered. Plus it would need to be something major for me to return it, any other problems I'd have fixed after all it's not new so there's bound to be something! Also I had a guy lined up to inspect it at my end. All in all I thought I was covered! I thought I'd done as much as I could!

 

[DayDreamer]

Thank you everyone for your replies, it was great to hear other views.

Where am I now....

The dealer has offered a refund, but I must take it to his storage. I'm not doing this!

If he is persuaded to budge and comes to collect it then my next hurdle is getting my money before he hitches up the van. Sounds easy, just refuse to let him take it, but .. He sails off into the sunset without it and says, well I tried to collect it but she wouldn't let me! Have I then lost my right to reject! I can see nothing that refers to my rights in this scenario.

 

[Buckman]

Thank you everyone for your replies, it was great to hear other views.

Where am I now....

The dealer has offered a refund, but I must take it to his storage. I'm not doing this!

If he is persuaded to budge and comes to collect it then my next hurdle is getting my money before he hitches up the van. Sounds easy, just refuse to let him take it, but .. He sails off into the sunset without it and says, well I tried to collect it but she wouldn't let me! Have I then lost my right to reject! I can see nothing that refers to my rights in this scenario.

The CRA 2015 legislation is on your side because you now have reasonable grounds to refuse the uplift until he has refunded you. You are rejecting it under your rights using CRA 2015. Unfortunately you may have to pay for towing costs as normally something like a caravan is "Back to base". Perhaps others can advise on this aspect?

 

[otherclive]

Thank you everyone for your replies, it was great to hear other views.

Where am I now....

The dealer has offered a refund, but I must take it to his storage. I'm not doing this!

If he is persuaded to budge and comes to collect it then my next hurdle is getting my money before he hitches up the van. Sounds easy, just refuse to let him take it, but .. He sails off into the sunset without it and says, well I tried to collect it but she wouldn't let me! Have I then lost my right to reject! I can see nothing that refers to my rights in this scenario.

I certainly don’t think you would lose your right of rejection as having your money transferred into your account prior to the dealer removing the caravan is totally reasonable. Those sort of transfers are done day in day out by companies buying motor vehicles. My daughter did it recently with her 2014 car, and a neighbour with his three year old 5 series estate. In both cases the money went across before the cars were taken.

At the end of the day you may have to be a bit pragmatic on any costs you might agree to in order to get satisfaction of a refund without unnecessary delay to your plans.

 

[DayDreamer]

The CRA 2015 legislation is on your side because you now have reasonable grounds to refuse the uplift until he has refunded you. You are rejecting it under your rights using CRA 2015. Unfortunately you may have to pay for towing costs as normally something like a caravan is "Back to base". Perhaps others can advise on this aspect?

I think, because I don't have a contract that says different, he has to collect from me. I base it on the example below (and a link to it)...

Sale and supply of goods | Business Companion

Understand what your obligations are – under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 – when a consumer buys goods from you

www.businesscompanion.info

.

Q. A consumer rings a trader to say that the TV they bought in that trader's shop during the previous week is defective and they demand that the trader collects it from them. Can the trader insist that the consumer returns it?
A. A consumer contract can require the consumer to return rejected goods. The trader has to bear the reasonable cost of return other than the consumer's costs of returning to the place where they took delivery. So, if the consumer collected the TV from the shop and the contract says they have to bring it back if they reject it, the trader can insist that they return it. If the contract says nothing about returning goods, then they need only make it available for the trader to collect (but if they choose to take it back themselves, they cannot claim the cost back from the trader).

 

[Jcloughie]

I think, because I don't have a contract that says different, he has to collect from me. I base it on the example below (and a link to it)...

Sale and supply of goods | Business Companion

Understand what your obligations are – under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 – when a consumer buys goods from you

www.businesscompanion.info

.

Q. A consumer rings a trader to say that the TV they bought in that trader's shop during the previous week is defective and they demand that the trader collects it from them. Can the trader insist that the consumer returns it?
A. A consumer contract can require the consumer to return rejected goods. The trader has to bear the reasonable cost of return other than the consumer's costs of returning to the place where they took delivery. So, if the consumer collected the TV from the shop and the contract says they have to bring it back if they reject it, the trader can insist that they return it. If the contract says nothing about returning goods, then they need only make it available for the trader to collect (but if they choose to take it back themselves, they cannot claim the cost back from the trader).

Not sure your quote it accurate as that is for buying from a shop as opposed to distance purchase.

If the dealer collecting it. You could lay down the T&A’s first. ie. you would accept them collecting at an agreed time with payment at or prior to collection.

John

 

[DayDreamer]

I've since looked up the actual CRA and it's accurate...

7)From the time when the right is exercised—

(a)the trader has a duty to give the consumer a refund, subject to subsection (18), and

(b)the consumer has a duty to make the goods available for collection by the trader or (if there is an agreement for the consumer to return rejected goods) to return them as agreed.


From..

Consumer Rights Act 2015

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[DayDreamer]

Unfortunately while I was reading the CRA
I also found the section below, so now I know why he's insisting my caravan inspection tore/cut the vinyl under the locker tray...

(18)There is no entitlement to receive a refund—

(a)if none of subsections (10) to (12) applies,

(b)to the extent that anything to which subsection (12) applies cannot be given back in its original state

From...

Consumer Rights Act 2015

www.legislation.gov.uk