Damp woes continue...

[chrisphoto]

Following my thread earlier this year when we bought a Unicorn Valencia 1 from a well known dealer that turned out to be completely rotten underneath, we now have damp woes with our replacement Valencia 2. We picked up the new (2013) Valencia in March having had it fully inspected for damp while we watched and returned it last week for the rest of the PDI to be done/re-done because we were suspicious it hadn't been properly completed after the hitch head failed. The dealer redid the PDI and found extensive damp, that they hadn't found 6 months ago, under the bed that the owner of the company seems unsure as to where it has come from. I have suggested the shower problem that Valencia 2s had, but he says it isn't something he has heard of and thinks it must be coming through the locker door and battery box frames. My question is addressed to people who have suffered this problem with their own caravans - does this look/sound like the shower problem or failed locker door seals? The Dealer says it will be fine when dried out, but how bad does it look really? Should we be worried?

https://www.clphotography.co.uk/imagesharing/Under bed 1 Sept 10 2018.jpg
https://www.clphotography.co.uk/imagesharing/Under bed 2 Sept 10 2018.jpg

 

[Craigyoung]

Your photos arn't loading in for me , don't know if its the same for others but try this by móí .... !

https://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/technical/56475-posting-pictures#453457
Craig

 

[Hutch]

Your photos arn't loading in for me , don't know if its the same for others but try this by móí .... !

https://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/technical/56475-posting-pictures#453457
Craig

They are loading for me Craig.

 

[Hutch]

Our friends valencia, had leaks from the front handeling grips, In the end it went back to Bristol for a complete new floor. Get it back to the dealer ASAP. And get it sorted. Good luck.

Edit, get an independent Caravan chap in to give a damp check, it will give you more sway to the dealer.

 

[otherclive]

Photos loading okay using IPhone on Safari. It does look grim around the locker base area. The damp meter readings are the best gauge of the intensity of the damp. But firstly all the affected areas will have to be checked as well as the wider surroundings. It could well be the locker surround or its seals but an on-site investigation is best. Before any remedial work can be undertaken the affected areas may have to be stripped back and dried out. Then the key element is to locate the source of the ingress. Is the van still under Bailey warranty for water ingress? But not sure it would cover shower leaks. But your rights under Consumer Rights Act might be worth looking at as well as Section 75 rights if you paid above £100 (?) by credit card. But best to try and work with the dealer in resolving it on site first.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Unless you have been abusing the caravan in some way, (Which I doubt very much) you should not get damp in it FULL STOP.

Whilst I agree with Clive about trying the amicable approach first of all, don't lose sight of the fact the van you returned your first van becasue of water ingress problems, you expected the replacement to be fully water proof, Inside and Out, so this evidence is clearly pointing to the caravan not being as described or expected.

Now there are two aspects of the 2015 CRA that fall heavily in your favour. The first is that a seller now only gets one chance to rectify a fault, and if that rectification also fails you have an automatic right to a refund - but it might be reduced to cover the usage you have had from the product. The seller has replaced the goods, and that constitutes their one chance.

But also if any material of workmanship fault develops withing 6 month of the completion of the contract, the the CRA assumes the seller is liable, and if the seller wants to challenge it they have to prove they are not liable.

So on both counts you have a strong position to ask for a refund. I strongly advise you seek professional guidance on your options.

 

[chrisphoto]

Thank you ProfJohnL. To be honest the whole dealing with the dealer has been awful over the past 6 months. A few staff have been amazing (sales manager, bodyshop technicians, one or two service technicians), but others have been rude and even aggressive. The owner has now taken over and has an "I'm telling you what we will do" combined with a "Your interpretation of the Consumer Rights Act isn't quite correct" attitude. I wish I had seen their Facebook reviews before buying from them as they don't make pretty reading! The only saving grace is they've given us a 5 year comprehensive warranty (2 with them and 3 insurance based) and so far must have made a huge loss on the sale.

 

[Damian]

Moderator Note: The specific dealers name has been removed in accordance with Forum protocol.
Two posts have been modified to reflect that change.

 

[Raywood]

Looking at the floor I would think a replacement might be your best bet, but that is on the appearance in the photos and it depends on just how damp has affected it which is difficult to see. If you accept the floor is to remain I would demand that it is treated with a fungicide or preservative.
On top of the Prof's advice, you might also have a further line of claim if you used a credit card for any part of the purchase or used HP to buy the caravan. If so you can also claim against the finance company and you should write to them outlining your problem.
If you are a member of either of the big clubs their legal helpline should help and if not there is a lot of useful information on the Citizens Advice web site. Armed with that information you can then challenge the dealer better.
Let us know how you get on.

 

[Thingy]

but he says it isn't something he has heard of and thinks it must be coming through the locker door and battery box frames.

Giving the dealer some latitude, thats something i have experienced, and on a 10 month old caravan.

Looking at the pictures, it seems to me there is a definite path the water has followed from the battery box.
You dont use a pressure wash do you?

 

[Thingy]

Prof

The first is that a seller now only gets one chance to rectify a fault, and if that rectification also fails you have an automatic right to a refund - but it might be reduced to cover the usage you have had from the product. The seller has replaced the goods, and that constitutes their one chance.

Am I right in thinking it doesnt even have to be the same fault?

 

[chrisphoto]

Never have and never will use a pressure washer. The dealer is suggesting the battery box or locker for frame must be leaking so they are replacing and resealing both. There is a known issue with the shower leaking on a Unicorn 2 as it uses the caravan wall rather than a contained cubicle, and apparently it shows as water in this area - the dealer is saying they've never heard of the issue so I just wanted to see if anyone else with a Unicorn 2 had the shower problem and if it looked like this.

 

[otherclive]

Never have and never will use a pressure washer. The dealer is suggesting the battery box or locker for frame must be leaking so they are replacing and resealing both. There is a known issue with the shower leaking on a Unicorn 2 as it uses the caravan wall rather than a contained cubicle, and apparently it shows as water in this area - the dealer is saying they've never heard of the issue so I just wanted to see if anyone else with a Unicorn 2 had the shower problem and if it looked like this.

That should be quite easy to trace if a fine spray were used with some tracer fluid in it, but one which will not stain the wall covering.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Prof

The first is that a seller now only gets one chance to rectify a fault, and if that rectification also fails you have an automatic right to a refund - but it might be reduced to cover the usage you have had from the product. The seller has replaced the goods, and that constitutes their one chance.

Am I right in thinking it doesnt even have to be the same fault?

I'm not sure about that, however if suspect it would if both faults independently rendered the product unusable, then it might, but if the faults were not connected and neither rendered the caravan unusable, there may be a question about the continuity of the action.

 

[Raywood]

The idea of it being two faults does throw up complications. As I read it, the dealer would have a separate chance to fix both faults, but as far as I know there has not been a court case to cover this. Only when we have a decided case can you see how the courts look at it so you cannot be certain.

 

[chrisphoto]

So now, after categorically stating there is no way the shower could be leaking or be wet underneath it, the dealer has contacted me to say they have removed the shower tray at my insistence and found the floor to be very wet under it as well. He still is saying it must be ingress from outside the caravan and not the known Bailey shower problem, and he has refused to contact Bailey for advice/known fixes etc even though he is an approved Bailey dealer. He is now going down the route of replacing very expensive external mouldings which will take a week to obtain from Bailey.

What annoys me now is that the dealer only found the damp under the shower because I insisted they look there. He still will not accept there is a known issue with Unicorn 2 showers stemming from the fact that the caravan wall forms 2 sides of the shower cubicle, and he is refusing to seek advice from Bailey. When I asked him how is it that I seem to know more about Bailey damp problems than he does, and I keep proving him wrong as a result, he just stuttered at me. I feel he just expects me to be grateful he has found the damp and told me about it, and I have to accept whatever repair he deems fit.

I suggested we are considering demanding a refund, but it was met with a degree of derision. I guess the issue will be is replacing the original rotten caravan with a newer one his first chance to fix the problem, or is this repair now on the new one his first chance. I.e. is it all legally one contract of sale or two separate ones.

As a side conversation, I was contacted by CRIS today informing me that the rotten caravan we rejected in March has been sold to a new owner. I hope for their sake that it has been repaired, but the floor was so extensively rotten that I wouldn’t like to bank on it.

 

[otherclive]

So now, after categorically stating there is no way the shower could be leaking or be wet underneath it, the dealer has contacted me to say they have removed the shower tray at my insistence and found the floor to be very wet under it as well. He still is saying it must be ingress from outside the caravan and not the known Bailey shower problem, and he has refused to contact Bailey for advice/known fixes etc even though he is an approved Bailey dealer. He is now going down the route of replacing very expensive external mouldings which will take a week to obtain from Bailey.

What annoys me now is that the dealer only found the damp under the shower because I insisted they look there. He still will not accept there is a known issue with Unicorn 2 showers stemming from the fact that the caravan wall forms 2 sides of the shower cubicle, and he is refusing to seek advice from Bailey. When I asked him how is it that I seem to know more about Bailey damp problems than he does, and I keep proving him wrong as a result, he just stuttered at me. I feel he just expects me to be grateful he has found the damp and told me about it, and I have to accept whatever repair he deems fit.

I suggested we are considering demanding a refund, but it was met with a degree of derision. I guess the issue will be is replacing the original rotten caravan with a newer one his first chance to fix the problem, or is this repair now on the new one his first chance. I.e. is it all legally one contract of sale or two separate ones.

As a side conversation, I was contacted by CRIS today informing me that the rotten caravan we rejected in March has been sold to a new owner. I hope for their sake that it has been repaired, but the floor was so extensively rotten that I wouldn’t like to bank on it.

To decide if it’s one or two contracts I would seek a legal view possibly from your Club helpline or TU legal helpline. It’s too complex an issue for well meaning advise.

 

[chrisphoto]

Of course. I am just mooting, venting and letting others know to beware of shoddy dealers.

 

[Raywood]

Good to hear the dealer did remove the shower tray and sad to find it was damp. At least when the tray goes back they will reseal the shower, so you would hope that will sort it. It might be as well to remind them that under the legislation they have only one go at the repair and if it fails you can reject the caravan.
Knowing what I have learned about unlined showers I doubt I would buy a caravan with one if I intended to use it.