Do we tax payers bale out Jaguar and Land Rover?

[Dustydog]

Tata the Indian Owners have turned to the British Tax Payer to save these two companies. Sales at LR were down 66% last month with worse to come.

Both these prestigious marques have had a chequered history not helped by being owned by BMW and Ford.

It seems a shame that there isn't a way of mothballing them for the future once this depression is over or do we lose them for good? Never mind all the job losses.

I know at least 6% of my tax payments go to support Civil Servants Gilt edged pensions. Perhaps redirect some of those monies??

Cheers

Alan

 

[ShadySadie]

If my business starts to fail the Government will not be giving me anything!

I can't see a foreign government coming the the aid of a British owner of one of their native businesses. Will the Icelendic government be paying back all the money its native banks have cost the UK.

The Tata takeover should have come under closer official scrutiny, if Tata want help try the Indian Government. There are plenty of quality cars in the market place. LR and Jag have had plenty of chances and tax payers money.

I would let them go now rather than keep throwing more money at them. Ford and BMW washed their hands of them so let them RIP(Rust In Peace).

But some government plumbs let tens of thousands of call centre and other jobs go to India whilst unemployment rises here. Close all the Indian jobs down and bring them home and may be then we could consider a loan to Tata ;0)

 

[RogerP]

I'm totally not sure on this one.

I agree that as they are totally owned by a foreign company then why should we help out as all the profits will go to India not the UK?

But the flip side is that as an economy , once this lean period is over we will need some kind of product to export to bring in revenue from abroad. If we let them completely go we'll have very little manufacturing base in the future.

Maybe the answer is for the Government to buy back the company (afterall Tata have asked for a

 

[RogerP]

If my business starts to fail the Government will not be giving me anything!

I can't see a foreign government coming the the aid of a British owner of one of their native businesses. Will the Icelendic government be paying back all the money its native banks have cost the UK.

The Tata takeover should have come under closer official scrutiny, if Tata want help try the Indian Government. There are plenty of quality cars in the market place. LR and Jag have had plenty of chances and tax payers money.

I would let them go now rather than keep throwing more money at them. Ford and BMW washed their hands of them so let them RIP(Rust In Peace).

But some government plumbs let tens of thousands of call centre and other jobs go to India whilst unemployment rises here. Close all the Indian jobs down and bring them home and may be then we could consider a loan to Tata ;0)

Hi Shady ,

you'd be surprised at how many companies are pulling out of Indian call centres , and not just in the recent months because of the credit crunch.

Companies have reduced their commitment there over the last couple of years , partly due to customers voting with their walletts and partly due to data integrity.

Bringing back offshored operations would certainly boost jobs in the UK as call centres are a growing industry something like 3/4 million now employed in this area.

 

[ShadySadie]

If my business starts to fail the Government will not be giving me anything!

I can't see a foreign government coming the the aid of a British owner of one of their native businesses. Will the Icelendic government be paying back all the money its native banks have cost the UK.

The Tata takeover should have come under closer official scrutiny, if Tata want help try the Indian Government. There are plenty of quality cars in the market place. LR and Jag have had plenty of chances and tax payers money.

I would let them go now rather than keep throwing more money at them. Ford and BMW washed their hands of them so let them RIP(Rust In Peace).

But some government plumbs let tens of thousands of call centre and other jobs go to India whilst unemployment rises here. Close all the Indian jobs down and bring them home and may be then we could consider a loan to Tata ;0)

Good.

I wasted good money on a directory enquiry call,no matter how hard I tried the Indian guy was beyond understanding.

 

[Dustydog]

Good.

I wasted good money on a directory enquiry call,no matter how hard I tried the Indian guy was beyond understanding.

Don't get too excited.

My brother's firm have moved all their financial accounts to Poland. He had to make 80 people redundant. Then.....Yes he too got the chop after 35 years loyal service.

Cheers

Alan

 

[g_374369443]

I will just ask this.

Are we in favour of another 15,000 people on dole or not?

If the government decides to take action, then should we not accept that its the better option for our coffers?

 

[Dustydog]

Can the Tax payer afford to support a high cost manufacturer making goods for the wealthy? Austin Rover received no support.

Tata also own what was once called "British Steel" then renamed Corus. I expect that will be next on the begging list?

I am no economist but I find it hard to understand why all the fat cat financial sectors eg the Banks have received so much help yet manufacturing none.

I was taught at college that a country with no sound manufacturing base leaves itself wide open to failure.

Iceland and her banks spring to mind.

If JLR was a true British company I may feel different but I really don't see why I should be paying for a multi billion dollar company like Tata just because they are finding the going a bit tough. Next we will have the Japanese knocking on our doors with Honda, Nissan ( is that French now) and Toyota wanting some cash.

Cheers

Alan

 

[g_374369443]

The funny thing is,well its not that funny but the Tata group is actually financially sound !Hell it has enough spare cash to have just become the sponsors of FERRARI in F1!

So one has to assume that they simply do not want to try and ride the storm with JLR,and would happily lay off the workforce anyway.

 

[RogerP]

I agree with G's comments , however where do you draw the line.

30000 Woolworths staff might ask why they haven't been helped.

All the smaller traders going bust might then ask why they're not helped.

People argue that a product like JLR is not right for the current economic / environmental world. And (even though I own a LR) I cant counter that. But what needs to be saved is the workforce and skills they have.

At some point there will be an upturn and people will want newer products and probably greener ones. We should use this time to get that workforce onto these workstreams so that when the time comes were are again at the forefront of the game and leading the way. Let JLR workforce disolve away and we'd then have nothing and have to rebuild at probably greater costs.

 

[Dustydog]

If ,in effect, we buy JLR from Tata and create a nationalised industry then I can only hope everyone learns from all the mistakes of the cockups and disasters that took place at Longbridge.

As Roger says where do we draw the line and avoid the floodgate syndrome. No one helped Avondale, MFI Woolies and countless other small businesses.

Maybe this Government should seriously consider exempting companies such as JLR from paying Corporation tax. Employer tax etc.That's got to be cheaper than 15,000 on the dole?

Cheers

Alan

 

[Gumbo]

Are we in favour of another 15,000 people on dole or not?

We have no choice, it is better paying 15000 people to stay at home ( Dole ) than producing something that can't sell. Recession or not LRJ was always going to go to the wall, sad fact of life, but that's the way it is. Gordon can talk up saving jobs etc But I think the only Industry that can works in is Construction Not Manufacturing. No one wants the product JLR is producing or they would be viable. We need to get through this and come out of this recession with Technology Led Industries, the Indians, Pakistanis and Chinese are the Cheap Manufacturing Labour of the future.

You only need to look at a Technology led business like Aircraft Production to see that at the moment the Labour intense Countries can't build them. No Chinese Boeing/Airbus as yet.

Just think if Maggie had poured the Money into the Mines like Arthur wanted, we would now have Billions of Tons of Coal stockpiled and no place to sell it.

 

[RogerP]

Im not saying we save the company to carry on building 4lt V8 gas guzzlers , on that basis yes it should go to the wall or rather the product should.

I'd rather we save the skills and knowledge and put them to work on products we will want. Like say Hydrogen powered vehicles if were led to believe thats the future. Or rebuilding our public transport systems or producing products we wil need and more importantly we can sell to other countries.

We need to generate foreign revenue and for that we need to sell them our products and services. Maybe we could get Indian companies to offshore their call centres to the UK that would be novel!!!

 

[g_374369443]

Not totally sure that it was or is inevitable that JLR would go to the wall, there products aren't that bad.and a look at FIAT would show how a company in dire crisis can actually turn it around in a little over two years,so it can be done.

I know we are in a worldwide recession to coin a phrase, but one would hope there was room in the market place for both jaguar and land rover.

 

[ShadySadie]

I seem to rememeber reading in the business press in the past week or so that Tata / Corus were threatening to close all there steel business in the UK if the government sighned up to new EU Green polution laws.

Whose running the country, Labour or Tata.

A bit rich for me, paying a billion then asking for a billion loan, that should make Jag and LR tax payers property.

On the other hand we could get Tata to run the country, they must be able to do better than Brown, Mandy and Labour.

 

[Gumbo]

gents your missing a major point

We have to Borrow the Money to bail them out. We have No Money we are Broke. Goverment Money is Mine and Yours, Sorry LRJ can Whistle in the Wind.

If it was Viable all Well and Good But it is Not. They will Produce them in India within 5 Years and we will have p****d our Money against the Wall

 

[Dustydog]

Since this thread started the USA have pledged billions to Chrysler and General Motors. Ford said they are ok for now.

A large number of manufacturers are involved in Hygrogen car production. I doubt JLR are any where near the progress made by the Germans or Japanese. Well not all the employees can be involved in Hydrogen development.

A similar economic situation happened in Nazi Germany in the 30s.

Herr Adolf introduced the peoples car, now VW and all those not working were found jobs most of which produced the autobahns.

I could never afford a Jag and quite honestly I have no use for one. However if the LRs had been less brick like and had a better reliability record I may have bought one a few years ago. Trouble was it didn't compare well with the rest of the market. BMW only kept LR long enough to scrutinise the 4x4 mechanism and then sold it on. Enter the X5.

Seems to me LR has fallen behind the times a bit. Even Safaris in East Africa, Botswana , use Toyota Landcruisers rather than LRs. A great shame but I fear LR have been overtaken aesthetically and technologically by other 4x4 manufacturers.

Oh well , plenty to discuss in my Local tonight.

Cheers

Alan

 

[DeliDave]

the government put up tax on 4wd ,people dont buy landrovers etc,company in trouble government bail out with taxpayers money ,effectively im paying tax to bail out but i cant afford what ive got let alone a Landie or Jag,have I got that right?

 

[Steve L]

While i would not like to see any more iconic brands disappear from the british way of life, I realy do think Tata is trying it on!

They have more than enough funding to support Jaguar and Landrover, but would rather play political games of trying to get government funding be it a loan or bail out.

I for one have been at the shitty end of the stick both in closing my own business down and being made redundant by a later employer. So I can empathise from both camps.

I'm afraid the trouble with industry today is that it is no longer "patriotic". Three decadesago we all bought british and as manufacturers used british services to support our needs, but then came the EU which paved the way for a common european market place, thus making importing and exporting much easier.

Today is only the start of the slippery slope of recession and believe me, I for one think depression is not far behind.

I think it's about time all the "fat cats" were put on a diet and I also believe it is time for Gordon to make Britain British again by restructuring our iconic industries to become what they should be!

A great Britain.

Steve L.

 

[tony_374390156]

also all the dead legs who live in council house and get new kitchens new heating and also dont work and dont pay rent and live on the backs off people who do work

 

[Gumbo]

Just to address the point. And all the people who have been saved from reposession by the Tax Payer who Happens to Live in a Council House. Afterall they never bought a House they couldn't afford !!!!!!!!!

 

[Damian]

Before this topic goes any further off track, keep it to the original.

Not everyone can afford a house of their own and many who live in social housing work and pay tax like anyone else.

I count myself very lucky to have been in the position to buy my house even when interest rates hit 15%, although it was a struggle.

As for the main topic, if Tata will not support their own business, why should the tax payer do it for them?

Whilst I would feel sorry for those losing their jobs, it is a fact of life now that there are no "jobs for life".

 

[Dustydog]

Tony said

"also all the dead legs who live in council house and get new kitchens new heating and also dont work and dont pay rent and live on the backs off people who do work".

Cut out the "Council house" bit and I agree with you.

My in laws worked hard all their lives and finally bought their "council house" some years ago. Actually there are more spongers living in high value houses where we pay the rents as tax payers . Invariably these houses are owned by fat cat bankers and civil servants who just get richer. Please do not abuse Council houses!!

As far as JLR is concerned let it go. We used to have a top aviation industry, top motorcar, motorcycle, ship building, civil engineering etc etc . Why did they fail?

If I knew that I'd be rich.

I do not want my taxes paying for Indian businesses that are so rich they can support the Ferrari F1 team next season.

Cheers

Alan

 

[Jo-AnneFairway5402010]

why didnt the goverment save jag in the first place then its british owned. why let someone abroad buy it then bail them out. he proberbly heard in britain its a right pushover, free nhs, free benefits, and the goverment will bail you out aswell if you put the sob story on about familys and loss of jobs etc.

jo

 

[Jo-AnneFairway5402010]

tony i live in a housing ass house i have two sons with special needs and are registered disabled am i scum aswell. live in the real world not everybody who lives in social housing is scum. god help you if you had been through what we had been through with our sons. shame on yourself and think yourself lucky that you and your family are so perfect.

jo-anne