My husband is thinking of changing his car. He currently drives a Mercedes C250 Estate diesel 1999, and tows a Swift Challenger 440SE 1991. He is an experienced driver and tower and has never bothered checking caravan weights, car kerbweights, towing weights etc and all those other bits of jargon! We have never had a problem with any of our outfits over the years. Should I try to persuade him to put a bit more thought into his next choice of car, or is there some method to his maddness? He is of the opinion that any large diesel engined car ie. 1.9 litre or above, should not be a problem towing our van.
Do weights really matter?
- Thread starter karenmshorter
- Start date
Not bothering about weights at all is rather foolish as there are legal implications involved. One must not exceed any of the manufacturers' specifications such as permissible towload, gross train weight, maximum allowable weight of car and caravan, etc. or else there is a danger that you may lose insurance or warranty coverage.
One can argue about the advisability of staying within the recommended 85% weight ratio between kerbweight of car and fully laden weight of the caravan as this does not have any legal significance but one must at least make sure that one is within the limits prescribed by law.
One can argue about the advisability of staying within the recommended 85% weight ratio between kerbweight of car and fully laden weight of the caravan as this does not have any legal significance but one must at least make sure that one is within the limits prescribed by law.
If I were you Emmy, I would stay at home next time he takes out the van. Such irresponsibility gives all caravanners a bad name - the man is a danger to himself, you and all other road users, and he would not be so contemptuous if his outfit came apart and he killed somebody...
Emmy - the very fact that you have posted on here suuggests that you at least have become concerned. As Lutz has said there are a number of weight limits to be observed quite apart from the obvious ones of car and van. The handbooks are a useful source of data. A simple illustration is kerbweight: this might appear to be sufficient for the van you wish to tow, but some modern cars have a *lower* maximum tow weight specified by the manufacture, simply because the car structure is not designed to take any more..
I think most responsible caravanners would be dismayed by this attitude not just to your familys safety, but ours too.
I think most responsible caravanners would be dismayed by this attitude not just to your familys safety, but ours too.
hi Emmy
while I would not argue with the comments already stated as safety should be anyones top priority dont get too bogged down with all the technical jargon.
basically all you want to know is wether a paticular car/vehicle will tow a paticular van, wether it does this well or not is a completely different question?
if in doubt go to the following web site
http://www.whattowcar.com/index.pnp
enter details of tow vehicle and of the van and the site will work it all out and give you a detailed assesment of the outfit.
hope this helps
colin
while I would not argue with the comments already stated as safety should be anyones top priority dont get too bogged down with all the technical jargon.
basically all you want to know is wether a paticular car/vehicle will tow a paticular van, wether it does this well or not is a completely different question?
if in doubt go to the following web site
http://www.whattowcar.com/index.pnp
enter details of tow vehicle and of the van and the site will work it all out and give you a detailed assesment of the outfit.
hope this helps
colin
Colin the information given on the tow car web site is very usefull. However if the max. overall laden weight of the van and contents are ignored and exceded then the information contained on the web page is of no consequence, therefore it is important that weights are respected and adhered to.
That's a bit strong. He is an experienced tower and would know immediately if an outfit he had were a potential danger and would never risk such a thing. I was just asking would it make the towing task any easier or enjoyable if the car were better matched.
Thanks guys for all your replies. Consider his knuckles rapped!! I will direct him to the Towcar website straight away. Thanks, Emmy
Don't rap his knuckles - his injury may prevent him taking you away over the bank holiday weekend. Just give him a severe talking to, 100 lines and detention.
hi all
a point I wish to clear up I wrote:- while I would not argue with the comments already stated as safety should be anyones top priority dont get too bogged down with all the technical jargon.
basically all you want to know is wether a paticular car/vehicle will tow a paticular van, wether it does this well or not is a completely different question?
nowhere in that statement does it suggest ignoring or exeeding the recomended weights I was merely pointing out a starting point for Emmy or anyone unfamilier with towing rules.
the real truth is there is no particular rule that applies in every situation and moreover nobody quotes the same rules in every situation either.
I will give a few examples of what I mean
1. gross mass train weight stated by the car manufacturer minus kerb weight of car = permissible max trailer weight, correct well actually no because no differential is made between model engine size type or power output a 2ltr td may tow the max weight but a 1300 petrol would not.
2. 85% rule a safe bet probably but in some cases its not applicable for example:- rover 45 2ltr td kerb weight 1305kg van 1058kg =ratio 81% perfect well no because rover limit trailer weight to 1000kg for all 45 models so the van would be 58kg too heavy.
3. there is also no help from dealers either in my experience go to a dealer look at a van ask about its weight he will tell you ask what car you will need to tow it and I bet he does not know or will not tell you exept say something like: any thing over 1.9 diesel will be fine. like wise go to a car dealer and ask if a car you are looking at will tow your van same again yes the van weight is less than the car it will be fine.
in either case you are given wrong information because they are ignorant of the law or choose not to disclose it and lose a sale.
it's difficult enough for anyone new to caravanning to find out about the legal rquirements the fact that some of the rules don't make sense or conflict with other rules just makes it more confusing
a point I wish to clear up I wrote:- while I would not argue with the comments already stated as safety should be anyones top priority dont get too bogged down with all the technical jargon.
basically all you want to know is wether a paticular car/vehicle will tow a paticular van, wether it does this well or not is a completely different question?
nowhere in that statement does it suggest ignoring or exeeding the recomended weights I was merely pointing out a starting point for Emmy or anyone unfamilier with towing rules.
the real truth is there is no particular rule that applies in every situation and moreover nobody quotes the same rules in every situation either.
I will give a few examples of what I mean
1. gross mass train weight stated by the car manufacturer minus kerb weight of car = permissible max trailer weight, correct well actually no because no differential is made between model engine size type or power output a 2ltr td may tow the max weight but a 1300 petrol would not.
2. 85% rule a safe bet probably but in some cases its not applicable for example:- rover 45 2ltr td kerb weight 1305kg van 1058kg =ratio 81% perfect well no because rover limit trailer weight to 1000kg for all 45 models so the van would be 58kg too heavy.
3. there is also no help from dealers either in my experience go to a dealer look at a van ask about its weight he will tell you ask what car you will need to tow it and I bet he does not know or will not tell you exept say something like: any thing over 1.9 diesel will be fine. like wise go to a car dealer and ask if a car you are looking at will tow your van same again yes the van weight is less than the car it will be fine.
in either case you are given wrong information because they are ignorant of the law or choose not to disclose it and lose a sale.
it's difficult enough for anyone new to caravanning to find out about the legal rquirements the fact that some of the rules don't make sense or conflict with other rules just makes it more confusing
I recently made contact with a dealer in the south about purchasing a new van.
They wanted to know what vehicle I would be towing with as they would not sell the van to me if the towcar wasn't suitable.
They wanted to know what vehicle I would be towing with as they would not sell the van to me if the towcar wasn't suitable.
Hello Colin (Yorkshire),
Sadly I have to take issue with your statement that 'rules don't make sense or conflict with other rules' and the inference that it is not necessary to get bogged down in the technicalities.
The rules are actually logical if you read them, but they are complex, and you have to be prepared wade through all the sections and riders.
Please note I use the word logical, because there is a logic to them, even though they are complex, which gives them the appearance of not being sensible.
Because they are logical and more importantly legal, you cannot choose to ignore them, you have abide by them if you intend to tow on public road, continue to be covered by your insurance, and to avoid warranty problems with your car.
In their entirety the towing laws cover every situation, as by definition anything that does not comply is illegal and therefore should not used on the roads.
Each current model of car is given its own gross train weight, and they do take into account the different engine options, so what the manufacture says is correct. A good example of this was the MK1 Vauxhall Zafira, where the diesel model had a significantly different GTW to the petrol equivalent.
It has always been the case that you should check the car manufactures max towing limit, as that is the legal measure. You should never assume that 85% is always acceptable. As many others and I have pointed out previously the 85% is not a rule only a guideline that has been suggested by the UK caravan industry. It has no basis in law and is not adopted anywhere else in the EU.
Using internet based outfit matching programmes, cannot be assumed to be accurate, as several flaws in the information they use have been identified - always confirm details for your specific model of car and caravan with the manufactures.
I am not surprised that Caravan dealers do not know the capabilities of all cars, that is not their expertise. Equally Car dealers are not likely to know the limits for every caravan model, however they should know the limits specified for their own products. It would not be a defence in law if a driver uses the argument that a caravan dealer said their combination was legal, when in fact it was not. The law is very clear, that the driver is entirely responsible for the safe and legal operation of a motor vehicle, and ignorance of the relevant laws is not an excuse. So the choice of car and caravan is down to the driver.
In today's society, the relevant law is available from government offices on the Internet, so access to reliable information is available, and therefore it is even less reasonable to claim ignorance.
Sadly I have to take issue with your statement that 'rules don't make sense or conflict with other rules' and the inference that it is not necessary to get bogged down in the technicalities.
The rules are actually logical if you read them, but they are complex, and you have to be prepared wade through all the sections and riders.
Please note I use the word logical, because there is a logic to them, even though they are complex, which gives them the appearance of not being sensible.
Because they are logical and more importantly legal, you cannot choose to ignore them, you have abide by them if you intend to tow on public road, continue to be covered by your insurance, and to avoid warranty problems with your car.
In their entirety the towing laws cover every situation, as by definition anything that does not comply is illegal and therefore should not used on the roads.
Each current model of car is given its own gross train weight, and they do take into account the different engine options, so what the manufacture says is correct. A good example of this was the MK1 Vauxhall Zafira, where the diesel model had a significantly different GTW to the petrol equivalent.
It has always been the case that you should check the car manufactures max towing limit, as that is the legal measure. You should never assume that 85% is always acceptable. As many others and I have pointed out previously the 85% is not a rule only a guideline that has been suggested by the UK caravan industry. It has no basis in law and is not adopted anywhere else in the EU.
Using internet based outfit matching programmes, cannot be assumed to be accurate, as several flaws in the information they use have been identified - always confirm details for your specific model of car and caravan with the manufactures.
I am not surprised that Caravan dealers do not know the capabilities of all cars, that is not their expertise. Equally Car dealers are not likely to know the limits for every caravan model, however they should know the limits specified for their own products. It would not be a defence in law if a driver uses the argument that a caravan dealer said their combination was legal, when in fact it was not. The law is very clear, that the driver is entirely responsible for the safe and legal operation of a motor vehicle, and ignorance of the relevant laws is not an excuse. So the choice of car and caravan is down to the driver.
In today's society, the relevant law is available from government offices on the Internet, so access to reliable information is available, and therefore it is even less reasonable to claim ignorance.
john L
I have been a caravanner for 30+ with a break in the middle of 6 years when I had a motorhome, many on this forum have similar or longer experience ranging from a box on wheels in the 1960s to the present day. others have much less experience but are very much more into the technical side of modern day caravanning. thats what makes this and other similar forums so useful especially for the newbies and the those returning back to caravanning after a few years break.
the comments and postings made on this and any other forum reflect the contributors knowlege, experience, and opinion, no more than that and must be taken at face value only as no one is right 100% of the time.
also it has to be realized that for every 1 person that uses these forums there are hundreds out there who don't and have never heard of gross vehicle train weight and would not have a clue as to what car will tow what caravan perhaps thats why there are so many 4x4s and mpv's used for towing because people don't know and buy the biggest heaviest vehicle they can afford to use as a tow car.
the point I was trying to make in my posting obviously did not come across very well and that is (in my opinion only) there is no diffinative formuli for working out the correct balance that works in all circumstances you use the word complex sounds about right to me but how do you find out the correct balance if no one tells you and you dont know where to look.
forget what you know for a minute and put yourself in this situation:-
never been caravanning but fancy having a go you know family or friends who do go and really enjoy it so you ask them the usual questions how big how many berths will my car tow one ect,but none of them know the law on weights so suggest the 85% rule,
your interested so you go to look round some dealers and see a van you like it's weight is about 1300KG loaded you ask the dealer will my car tow it what you got he askes you say 2ltr mondeo oh yes you'll be fine there 2 ltr engine no problems,
so you buy the van and all the kit to go with it have a bar fitted and off you go its a bit hard to tow but you soon get used to it your now a caravanner like hundreds more on the roads
you tow for a couple of years without problems you never join a club or a use a forum how do you know wether your legal or not the answer is you dont because no one has ever told you, despite being complex and a legal requirement the law regarding trailers is not widely known or publisised enough.
rubbish you may say:
well when did you find out what the law was; I have been vanning 3 decades and only found out last year in a magazine article about car-dollys nothing at all to do with caravans untill I looked it up on the web and it's supprising how many caravaners and so called professionals I have met since then have never heard of the regulations at all never mind know them
I have been a caravanner for 30+ with a break in the middle of 6 years when I had a motorhome, many on this forum have similar or longer experience ranging from a box on wheels in the 1960s to the present day. others have much less experience but are very much more into the technical side of modern day caravanning. thats what makes this and other similar forums so useful especially for the newbies and the those returning back to caravanning after a few years break.
the comments and postings made on this and any other forum reflect the contributors knowlege, experience, and opinion, no more than that and must be taken at face value only as no one is right 100% of the time.
also it has to be realized that for every 1 person that uses these forums there are hundreds out there who don't and have never heard of gross vehicle train weight and would not have a clue as to what car will tow what caravan perhaps thats why there are so many 4x4s and mpv's used for towing because people don't know and buy the biggest heaviest vehicle they can afford to use as a tow car.
the point I was trying to make in my posting obviously did not come across very well and that is (in my opinion only) there is no diffinative formuli for working out the correct balance that works in all circumstances you use the word complex sounds about right to me but how do you find out the correct balance if no one tells you and you dont know where to look.
forget what you know for a minute and put yourself in this situation:-
never been caravanning but fancy having a go you know family or friends who do go and really enjoy it so you ask them the usual questions how big how many berths will my car tow one ect,but none of them know the law on weights so suggest the 85% rule,
your interested so you go to look round some dealers and see a van you like it's weight is about 1300KG loaded you ask the dealer will my car tow it what you got he askes you say 2ltr mondeo oh yes you'll be fine there 2 ltr engine no problems,
so you buy the van and all the kit to go with it have a bar fitted and off you go its a bit hard to tow but you soon get used to it your now a caravanner like hundreds more on the roads
you tow for a couple of years without problems you never join a club or a use a forum how do you know wether your legal or not the answer is you dont because no one has ever told you, despite being complex and a legal requirement the law regarding trailers is not widely known or publisised enough.
rubbish you may say:
well when did you find out what the law was; I have been vanning 3 decades and only found out last year in a magazine article about car-dollys nothing at all to do with caravans untill I looked it up on the web and it's supprising how many caravaners and so called professionals I have met since then have never heard of the regulations at all never mind know them
It is amazing how many people don't know that you need B+E to tow a caravan. Including a lot of Police Officers
Val & Frank
Val & Frank
A B+E licence is only required for larger outfits. If the sum of the car's MAW and caravan's MTPLM is less than 3500kg AND the caravan's MTPLM is less than the car's kerbweight then B+E isn't a requirement.
A car, kerbweight 1500kg, MAW 2000kg, can tow a 1500kg MTPLM caravan without needing a B+E.
Drivers who passed their car test before 1/1/97 automatically get B+E even though it's not shown on their licence.
Older licence holders may have different groups shown, mine only shows A,D,E but covers cars and motorbikes.
A car, kerbweight 1500kg, MAW 2000kg, can tow a 1500kg MTPLM caravan without needing a B+E.
Drivers who passed their car test before 1/1/97 automatically get B+E even though it's not shown on their licence.
Older licence holders may have different groups shown, mine only shows A,D,E but covers cars and motorbikes.
Hello again Colin,
I am pleased that like me, you have many years experience of towing. I concur with you that when I started the availability of government information was quite sketchy, and we relied on the information supplied in the CC & AA handbooks of the day.
But times have changed, and now there are so many ways we can obtain reliable information, that there is really no excuse not to research a subject like towing before starting. There are an increasing number of reasons to encourage people to get the information especially with the government breathing down our necks in so many new ways.
I was only responding to your posted comments, of the 25th of May, which suggested that through ignorance, compliance with the regulations was not always managed.
The critical point is that ignorance is not a defence in law, so it is actually essential that drivers do take steps to understand and comply with the law. I note from examples of some caravan owners handbooks that some manufactures make a point of telling the owner to check the regulations.
The regulations do give a definitive method of establishing if an outfit is compliant with regard to its masses, however an equally important legal requirement is that the out fit must be road-worthy, and that implies the outfit must tow safely. It is possible to have an outfit that meets its mass obligations, but is a difficult tow, so simple mass limits are not the whole story.
It is the stability aspect that cannot be legislated by formula as there are too many variables. However the UK caravan industry has tried to simplify it by suggesting the 85% figure. This cannot be a RULE, because there is no legislation that requires it, and there are examples where the car manufactures maximum permitted towing figures actually fall below this figure. Equally, there are many examples of where the manufactures figures indicate that the tow vehicle can cope with substantially greater ratios than 85%.
The 85% figure is only a guideline, I happen to agree that it is certainly a sensible target, where it falls within the manufactures stated limits, but it is not a magic cure all for all outfits, which is why it should note be quoted as a 'rule'
I am pleased that like me, you have many years experience of towing. I concur with you that when I started the availability of government information was quite sketchy, and we relied on the information supplied in the CC & AA handbooks of the day.
But times have changed, and now there are so many ways we can obtain reliable information, that there is really no excuse not to research a subject like towing before starting. There are an increasing number of reasons to encourage people to get the information especially with the government breathing down our necks in so many new ways.
I was only responding to your posted comments, of the 25th of May, which suggested that through ignorance, compliance with the regulations was not always managed.
The critical point is that ignorance is not a defence in law, so it is actually essential that drivers do take steps to understand and comply with the law. I note from examples of some caravan owners handbooks that some manufactures make a point of telling the owner to check the regulations.
The regulations do give a definitive method of establishing if an outfit is compliant with regard to its masses, however an equally important legal requirement is that the out fit must be road-worthy, and that implies the outfit must tow safely. It is possible to have an outfit that meets its mass obligations, but is a difficult tow, so simple mass limits are not the whole story.
It is the stability aspect that cannot be legislated by formula as there are too many variables. However the UK caravan industry has tried to simplify it by suggesting the 85% figure. This cannot be a RULE, because there is no legislation that requires it, and there are examples where the car manufactures maximum permitted towing figures actually fall below this figure. Equally, there are many examples of where the manufactures figures indicate that the tow vehicle can cope with substantially greater ratios than 85%.
The 85% figure is only a guideline, I happen to agree that it is certainly a sensible target, where it falls within the manufactures stated limits, but it is not a magic cure all for all outfits, which is why it should note be quoted as a 'rule'
I find it strange that all the conversation that takes place over towing weights very little is spoken of correct loading get this right and your get a far safer tow than with an underweight badly loaded outfit
You are right Stephen, correct loading is a very important part of the MIX. Any time I log onto this site I always check the Safety & Towing threads, hoping to see peoles gems of wisdom, and I mean that in good faith. Being inexperienced every little helps towards a safer tow.
Val & Frank
Val & Frank
hi johnL
you are absolutly right of course there is information out there if you know where to look and ignorance of the law is no excuse, I do not have a issue about that, it is the availability of first contact information that is the issue for me.
as you will gather from my last post despite being a experienced caravanner I only found out about the legislation in a article on car dollys in 2006 when looking into the possibility of towing my susuki swift behind the motorhome we had, as the old dear was getting a little creaky with age (the wife not the motorhome) it was harder to walk from out of town parking areas.
the aticle in question gave a web address to go to where the legislation could be looked up and printed out (sorry I no longer have it before anyone askes)the content of the pages were a revelation to me, so many complex and conflicting laws about trailers most of which I had never heard of, never mind complied with.
having decided that it was not possible to achieve this aim legally without great cost (all the cheaper options seemed illegal) we decided to go back to a tourer and one car but which van and what car, you know the old question?
being a bit of a greenie I did not want to go down the 4x4 route and to honest could not justify the cost of running one, and the expense of fitting a chair lift so the wife could get in (joke) I opted for the lightest and most enviromentaly friendly outfit possible.
with my new found knowlege on trailer laws set out to look for a outfit suitable for us and was really amazed how few people even knew about it and those that did never mentioned it untill I asked specific questions, in the six months we were looking before purchase of the bailey only one of the dealers or private sellers said anything about trailer law voluntarily, we bought from them mainly because they went that extra bit to make sure we got the van that suited us not the most expensive and even recommened possible tow cars to use I wont mention their name as this would be advertising but there in halifax west-yorkshire.
I then went for a car to tow it as obviously the swift was too small, the car dealers were no better, despite telling them I was looking for a tow car they just pointed to all the 4x4 on the car lot and said pick one of them they will tow it, and some of them really got quite annoyed when I kept insisting on looking at the vin plates for max tow weights.
you could argue and do that it is the drivers responsibility and indeed it is but if you dont know what the regulations are or even that they exist how do you find out about them because no one is going to tell you. its about time it was made compulsory to inform a new buyer about the laws covering trailers
regards colin
you are absolutly right of course there is information out there if you know where to look and ignorance of the law is no excuse, I do not have a issue about that, it is the availability of first contact information that is the issue for me.
as you will gather from my last post despite being a experienced caravanner I only found out about the legislation in a article on car dollys in 2006 when looking into the possibility of towing my susuki swift behind the motorhome we had, as the old dear was getting a little creaky with age (the wife not the motorhome) it was harder to walk from out of town parking areas.
the aticle in question gave a web address to go to where the legislation could be looked up and printed out (sorry I no longer have it before anyone askes)the content of the pages were a revelation to me, so many complex and conflicting laws about trailers most of which I had never heard of, never mind complied with.
having decided that it was not possible to achieve this aim legally without great cost (all the cheaper options seemed illegal) we decided to go back to a tourer and one car but which van and what car, you know the old question?
being a bit of a greenie I did not want to go down the 4x4 route and to honest could not justify the cost of running one, and the expense of fitting a chair lift so the wife could get in (joke) I opted for the lightest and most enviromentaly friendly outfit possible.
with my new found knowlege on trailer laws set out to look for a outfit suitable for us and was really amazed how few people even knew about it and those that did never mentioned it untill I asked specific questions, in the six months we were looking before purchase of the bailey only one of the dealers or private sellers said anything about trailer law voluntarily, we bought from them mainly because they went that extra bit to make sure we got the van that suited us not the most expensive and even recommened possible tow cars to use I wont mention their name as this would be advertising but there in halifax west-yorkshire.
I then went for a car to tow it as obviously the swift was too small, the car dealers were no better, despite telling them I was looking for a tow car they just pointed to all the 4x4 on the car lot and said pick one of them they will tow it, and some of them really got quite annoyed when I kept insisting on looking at the vin plates for max tow weights.
you could argue and do that it is the drivers responsibility and indeed it is but if you dont know what the regulations are or even that they exist how do you find out about them because no one is going to tell you. its about time it was made compulsory to inform a new buyer about the laws covering trailers
regards colin
oh and I nearly forgot frank is spot on about van loading it can make a world of differance between a good stable outfit and a monster thats hard to handle especialy when towing with a lighter vehicle, and by the way no one tells you about that either
colin
colin
Hello Stephen, Frank and Colin,
You are all right about the lack of official advice about how to load, but yet again it is not the whole story, probably with equal importance care must be taken with tyre pressures, and driving style, all of which can affect the stability of an outfit. Excess speed is also an important factor, as are road and weather conditions, so simply concentrating on masses or loading is not a guarantee of producing a safe outfit.
It has to be said that many of the caravan magazines have run items on creating a safer outfit, so whilst official advice may be thin on the ground, there are many available sources, including this forum.
Another difficulty which limits official sources ability to offer loading advice is the fact that taking two identical outfits, but driven by different drivers over different surfaces can produce wildly differing results, so what is good for one driver can be very different for another.
You are all right about the lack of official advice about how to load, but yet again it is not the whole story, probably with equal importance care must be taken with tyre pressures, and driving style, all of which can affect the stability of an outfit. Excess speed is also an important factor, as are road and weather conditions, so simply concentrating on masses or loading is not a guarantee of producing a safe outfit.
It has to be said that many of the caravan magazines have run items on creating a safer outfit, so whilst official advice may be thin on the ground, there are many available sources, including this forum.
Another difficulty which limits official sources ability to offer loading advice is the fact that taking two identical outfits, but driven by different drivers over different surfaces can produce wildly differing results, so what is good for one driver can be very different for another.
Some late comment on this aspect... The problem is not if the car (a turbodiesel >1.9) can or may tow a certain caravan. Most will do good to perfect (?). Even a 1.5 petrol will tow a caravan of 2000 kg and 2,50m wide! Probably in third or second gear but it tows.
Three things are important imho.
First a certain weight ratio between caravan and car. I know (as Dutchman) you Brits stick to the 85% ratio (100% when experienced tower). That has to do with stability and as a basic advise to new caravanners. Nothing wrong with that.
Second, as a derivate to the first. More important is weight balance - heavy stuff not at the front or rear but low in the middle, so resulting in a sensible noseweight.
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