Surprised at lack of comment on caravan industry economic issues.

[Buckman]

These are not your caravan lead acid battery hooked up to a relatively unsophisticated charger. They have comprehensive management systems to control charge and discharge.

Which probably means they can be hacked and changed to look good when they are actually on their last legs?

 

[RogerL]

Pity about the caravan industry economic woes as obviously not very important any longer. I read that Swift have posted a large loss for 2024 prior to taxation. Not good.

Perhaps caravan makers should invest in quality control systems, which would reduce their warranty claims costs - rather than reacting by cutting costs which usually just reduces product quality.

In many ways, the UK caravan industry is just repeating the UK car industry - spiralling down to bankrupcy.

 

[JTQ]

I am not sure about this, but possibly a second hand dealer could charge up an EV car prior to delivery so battery status looks good, but in reality it may not be as good as it seems.

That would not alter the battery's condition "status", the subject being addressed, just the state of charge.
I have not had my eBike with its Lithium technology battery for 10 years, but its now 9 years old and I am not seeing any loss of range.
I recall it was sold with a guide that it would take 1000 cycles before the degrading dropped 20% down to 80%.
It was also recommended not to go outside 20 to 80% as a routine, that I have done without exception other than an initially "setting up instruction" that required charging fully first time pre use and using till it does not assist. That I took was to calibrate the range indication.

On its longevity I am way more impressed than I am with the phones and laptops we have had.

 

[JTQ]

Which probably means they can be hacked and changed to look good when they are actually on their last legs?

Bit like putting a higher viscosity oil in an ICE engine and a double dose of combustion improver in the fuel tank.

 

[Buckman]

That would not alter the battery's condition "status", the subject being addressed, just the state of charge.
I have not had my eBike with its Lithium technology battery for 10 years, but its now 9 years old and I am not seeing any loss of range.
I recall it was sold with a guide that it would take 1000 cycles before the degrading dropped 20% down to 80%.
It was also recommended not to go outside 20 to 80% as a routine, that I have done without exception other than an initially "setting up instruction" that required charging fully first time pre use and using till it does not assist. That I took was to calibrate the range indication.

On its longevity I am way more impressed than I am with the phones and laptops we have had.

As you are still the first owner, you know the history, but the next person to buy an ebike or EV will not know the charging history.

 

[JTQ]

As you are still the first owner, you know the history, but the next person to buy an ebike or EV will not know the charging history.

The charging history matters not, its any potential damage it does that matters; much like you don't know the previous owner of an ICE redlined the motor and held it, only with the EV you can delve into the battery status [its health], which you can't do anything like with the ICE motor. More so with the ICE motor being knackered can initially be hidden with a new charge of thicker oil, and tank dose of a combustion stabiliser, a few days before you test drive it.

It appears in this propulsion package, being knackered is considerably easier with an EV to access info, than it is with our ICEs.

 

[Buckman]

The charging history matters not, its any potential damage it does that matters; much like you don't know the previous owner of an ICE redlined the motor and held it, only with the EV you can delve into the battery status [its health], which you can't do anything like with the ICE motor. More so with the ICE motor being knackered can initially be hidden with a new charge of thicker oil, and tank dose of a combustion stabiliser, a few days before you test drive it.

It appears in this propulsion package, being knackered is considerably easier with an EV to access info, than it is with our ICEs.

A few earlier posts mentioned the battery being charged constantly to 100% may create problems or have I misunderstood? If an ICE motor is knackered as you state and it was bought from a dealer not issue with a claim. Surely it is a simple matter for an expert to hack the battery on an EV? The 5 year old across the road could probably do it! LOL! 🤣

 

[Tobes]

Thanks Tobes, we are close on everything bar one minor academic point.

The Volvo handbook does make it clear that for regular charging, battery wear can be reduced by selecting a target battery level lower than 100%. Only charge to 100% if the full range is needed for your next trip.
That does make sense.
Do you think a used EV should detail how many charges over 100% have been made? I have no idea what % of life may be reduced but it must be something otherwise the handbook wouldn’t mention it?

Son is still very happy the Volvo 90% of the time serves him very well particularly his home charging system which has storage batteries and solar panels.

We agree on that too. That for regular use (i.e. not a long trip) charging to 80% is sensible. But charging to 100% and then using it next day is also fine. (Thats in the quote direct from the Volvo web site that I included in post #88.

I think you meant up to 100% or over 80% - but I get your meaning

My parents new EX30 has the battery health status as a % on the main display.

As a different example - here is the latest information taken from my daughter's Corsa E. This is available from the Corsa API directly along with the actual state of health of the battery (in her case 92%) on her 2020 car with just under 51,000km (30,000 miles) on the clock.

She has owned the car since around start of March 2024 at 28,000km and it had (If I remember correctly) 93% or 94% start of health then. I.e. its lost 1% or 2 % in 1 year and 3 months and 23,000km of driving.

This data is available for any car on the PSA platform.

You can see the start and end charge level and the charging mode (all slow AC charging in this case). The cost here is approximate, and actually incorrect. They should all be £0 as all this charging is from her solar roof via her home battery.

start at	stop at	duration	duration (min)	start level	end level	CO2	consumption	price	charging mode	mileage
30/06/2025, 21:53	30/06/2025, 21:53	0:00:00	0 min	70	79		4.14 kWh		Slow	50,866.1 km
30/06/2025, 07:46	30/06/2025, 08:31	0:44:42	45 min	84	86		0.92 kWh	0.15 €	Slow	50,830.6 km
30/06/2025, 00:18	30/06/2025, 00:33	0:14:48	15 min	80	83		1.38 kWh	0.23 €	Slow	50,830.6 km
29/06/2025, 23:32	30/06/2025, 00:09	0:36:36	37 min	74	80		2.76 kWh	0.46 €	Slow	50,830.6 km
29/06/2025, 16:41	29/06/2025, 17:03	0:22:28	22 min	72	74		0.92 kWh	0.15 €	Slow	50,830.6 km
29/06/2025, 10:49	29/06/2025, 12:53	2:03:27	123 min	79	87		3.68 kWh	0.62 €	Slow	50,793.3 km
28/06/2025, 23:32	29/06/2025, 00:33	1:00:40	61 min	69	79		4.60 kWh	0.77 €	Slow	50,793.3 km
28/06/2025, 16:04	28/06/2025, 17:06	1:02:35	63 min	64	68		1.84 kWh	0.31 €	Slow	50,793.3 km
28/06/2025, 15:37	28/06/2025, 15:55	0:18:47	19 min	62	64		0.92 kWh	0.15 €	Slow	50,793.3 km
28/06/2025, 12:38	28/06/2025, 15:03	2:25:26	145 min	43	57		6.44 kWh	1.08 €	Slow	50,793.3 km
27/06/2025, 23:32	28/06/2025, 00:33	1:00:34	61 min	66	75		4.14 kWh	0.69 €	Slow	50,719.2 km
27/06/2025, 08:16	27/06/2025, 09:08	0:51:53	52 min	82	85		1.38 kWh	0.23 €	Slow	50,671.3 km

 

[Tobes]

A few earlier posts mentioned the battery being charged constantly to 100% may create problems or have I misunderstood? If an ICE motor is knackered as you state and it was bought from a dealer not issue with a claim. Surely it is a simple matter for an expert to hack the battery on an EV? The 5 year old across the road could probably do it! LOL! 🤣

Yes - you misunderstood- but that is a very very common misconception. Charging to 100% (or discharging to 0%) is not a problem. Leaving it charged for an extended period of time (days) at 100% (or 0%) is what can cause the damage.

Car manufactures suggest not charging to beyond 80% as doing so prevents the possibility of leaving a car sitting at that high state of charge for longer periods of time.

Hacking the battery on an EV is (I would suggest) not child's play. As cars get more sophisticated, so their systems become more locked down and indeed encrypted and authenticated so that tampering is both evident and difficult.

 

[Tobes]

Which probably means they can be hacked and changed to look good when they are actually on their last legs?

No - they have extensive embedded records with time stamps that will show huge gaps if tampered with. Think of them a CV/resume for the car/battery. If it shows big gaps where there should be data and information, you can infer tampering has occurred.

 

[RogerL]

Yes - you misunderstood- but that is a very very common misconception. Charging to 100% (or discharging to 0%) is not a problem. Leaving it charged for an extended period of time (days) at 100% (or 0%) is what can cause the damage.

Car manufactures suggest not charging to beyond 80% as doing so prevents the possibility of leaving a car sitting at that high state of charge for longer periods of time.

Hacking the battery on an EV is (I would suggest) not child's play. As cars get more sophisticated, so their systems become more locked down and indeed encrypted and authenticated so that tampering is both evident and difficult.

Hacking is an issue where European and American authorities are diametrically opposed - in the US there is a requirement that the car's electronics are available to any third party - but in Europe there's no such requirement and car makers are lobbying the EU to restrict electronics even further so that only franchised dealers can access it.

Of course, with so much to do with EVs coming from China, either in parts or complete cars, I feel sure they'll be able to hack into anything!

 

[Buckman]

No - they have extensive embedded records with time stamps that will show huge gaps if tampered with. Think of them a CV/resume for the car/battery. If it shows big gaps where there should be data and information, you can infer tampering has occurred.

Is that information readily available to someone who is looking to buy a car from a second hand dealer? I would think that not everyone wants to spend +£150 to have a car diagnosed prior to delivery.

 

[Buckman]

Yes - you misunderstood- but that is a very very common misconception. Charging to 100% (or discharging to 0%) is not a problem. Leaving it charged for an extended period of time (days) at 100% (or 0%) is what can cause the damage.

Car manufactures suggest not charging to beyond 80% as doing so prevents the possibility of leaving a car sitting at that high state of charge for longer periods of time.

Hacking the battery on an EV is (I would suggest) not child's play. As cars get more sophisticated, so their systems become more locked down and indeed encrypted and authenticated so that tampering is both evident and difficult.

I think In understand now that you cannot leave an EV plugged in charging for several days. It needs to be unplugged once it has reached 100%?

 

[Sam Vimes]

Yes - you misunderstood- but that is a very very common misconception. Charging to 100% (or discharging to 0%) is not a problem. Leaving it charged for an extended period of time (days) at 100% (or 0%) is what can cause the damage.

Car manufactures suggest not charging to beyond 80% as doing so prevents the possibility of leaving a car sitting at that high state of charge for longer periods of time.

Hacking the battery on an EV is (I would suggest) not child's play. As cars get more sophisticated, so their systems become more locked down and indeed encrypted and authenticated so that tampering is both evident and difficult.

It's my understanding that discharging below something like 20% is not a good thing with Lithium type batteries. Most control circuits will prevent this causing a shutdown before getting too low.

At least when I flew RC Helicopters and Quads with Lithium batteries that's what happened.

That said I've had a tablet and phone going to almost zero...or at least that's what the display said.

 

[Tobes]

Is that information readily available to someone who is looking to buy a car from a second hand dealer? I would think that not everyone wants to spend +£150 to have a car diagnosed prior to delivery.

As I say, it's a simple diagnostic. It takes 5 mins. If the dealer is not prepared to give you that info - find one who will.

 

[Tobes]

I think In understand now that you cannot leave an EV plugged in charging for several days. It needs to be unplugged once it has reached 100%?

No. The car will stop charging at 100%. But you should not leave it full (at 100% for) days. If you don't plan to drive it at all in that time, the recommendation is you only charge to 80% or 90% or whatever the max is specified by the manufacturer.
If you do plan to use it then charging to whatever level you need to complete your journey is recommended.

As an example, Polestar recommend 90% max for normal daily use, so thats what I set the car to charge to. It automatically stops at 90%. Generally it only gets charged once a week anyway and the lowest it gets to is perhaps 45%. But today I had a trip to the office - round trip of 150 miles, so I charged it to 100% just in case of diversions, or other issues. As it turns out, that 150mile round trip only took 66% leaving me with 34% and 85 miles of remaining range. So I will reset my max charge to 90% and re-charge it tonight.

 

[Tobes]

It's my understanding that discharging below something like 20% is not a good thing with Lithium type batteries. Most control circuits will prevent this causing a shutdown before getting too low.

At least when I flew RC Helicopters and Quads with Lithium batteries that's what happened.

That said I've had a tablet and phone going to almost zero...or at least that's what the display said.

Again - discharging to 0% is fine, as long as you immediately re-charge and don't leave it at that level. 0% in the driver display will not be 0% of the battery. There will be a spare buffer at both the top and bottom of the pack that prevents fully charging and fully discharging to prevent damage. The car BMS will manage that buffer for the driver and only report what is available, not what is physically used. This is why most car information will tell you both the physical pack size and the usable size.

For example the polestar 2 on the EV database is reported as 82kWh with 79kWh usable. 3kWh is retained as a buffer to prevent damage by over charging or running completely flat.

Cars are not the same as phones and tablets. While phones have undeniably got smarter in how they manage battery capacity, cars are on a whole different level. It's like comparing the engine management system on a brand new car with a Briggs single cylinder lawn mower. They do the same job, but at totally different levels of finesse.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Under CRA 2015 the car is covered in month 5, but you need to give the dealer one chance at a repair. CRA 2015 over rides any warranty which is in addition to your rights. The dealer cannot exclude the battery.

On the assumption we are discussing second hand vehicles, In the USA there is a scheme that allows the state of an EV's battery to be discovered. I pretty certain the same technology is used in the UK and EU but the information may not be publicly available.

In my view it should be mandatory for the seller of an EV to have this information and for it to form part of the contract of sale. If this were the case, the buyer would have the knowledge of the age and condition of the battery, and they can then make an enlightened decision about whether to buy or say Bye bye.

At the same time it protects the seller from unreasonable claims for poor batteries (not faulty batteries) to the point where if a buyer tried to make a CRA claim for a battery with a poor charge capacity, the claim can be moderated based on the information that formed the contact of sale which described the state of the battery.

It works both ways becasue if a seller falsifies the information to make it sound better than it really is, there is a bigger risk the customer may have a successful claim, and equally if the customer is trying to make an unreasonable claim about the battery, the seller should have the records to show the customer knew the real state of the battery before agreeing to buy the vehicle. satisfying the CRA's requirement for the description fitting the goods.

 

[Sam Vimes]

Again - discharging to 0% is fine, as long as you immediately re-charge and don't leave it at that level. 0% in the driver display will not be 0% of the battery. There will be a spare buffer at both the top and bottom of the pack that prevents fully charging and fully discharging to prevent damage. The car BMS will manage that buffer for the driver and only report what is available, not what is physically used. This is why most car information will tell you both the physical pack size and the usable size.

For example the polestar 2 on the EV database is reported as 82kWh with 79kWh usable. 3kWh is retained as a buffer to prevent damage by over charging or running completely flat.

Cars are not the same as phones and tablets. While phones have undeniably got smarter in how they manage battery capacity, cars are on a whole different level. It's like comparing the engine management system on a brand new car with a Briggs single cylinder lawn mower. They do the same job, but at totally different levels of finesse.

Which is pretty much the same as what I posted. Your info display may indicate zero capacity left but in reality the system will shut down before actually getting to absolute zero. So you cannot discharge to absolute zero because it's doubtful the battery would recover.

For Lithium-Ion batteries the optimum range of charge is generally quoted as between 20 - 80% to ensure prolonged battery life.

Life can get compromised when repeatedly charging, specifically fast charging, above the 80% level. The same may result when discharging frequently below the 20% level.

The difference between car and smartphone battery management techniques is not that different. Even years back, again when I was flying RC models, their control systems and the intelligent battery charger I had did much the same job. When the on board battery drop to a level well above zero, the model powered down. Hopefully somewhere you could retrieve it. 😁 I think later the systems went into a return to home mode. The intelligent battery chargers would charge the multiple cells in parallel and carefully monitor the state of each cell. Shutting down gracefully as the optimum was reached. (except the Chinese cloned charger that didn't stop charging and set fire to one of my batteries in the kitchen. Fortunately I never left them unattended and why I now use a fire proof bag to put them in)

If you monitor the battery state on a smart phone... There's a number of apps that do this...you can see how the charging current gradually reduces. General advice is to stop at the 80% level and many phones include this as an optional setting.

 

[RogerL]

The "problem" with using 20-80% is that the range is therefore reduced to 60% of the already optimistic WLTP range figure quoted by manufacturers

 

[JTQ]

The "problem" with using 20-80% is that the range is therefore reduced to 60% of the already optimistic WLTP range figure quoted by manufacturers

Whilst in a different application, much like our caravan's LA batteries, even the very best of these start with a relatively poor longevity that is rapidly further degraded if you take more that 50% of the labelled energy value. At least with Lithium technology that 60% is there and there again.

 

[otherclive]

The "problem" with using 20-80% is that the range is therefore reduced to 60% of the already optimistic WLTP range figure quoted by manufacturers

But as Tobes has posted #116 you can use a wider range than 20/80% when required, but with his quite extensive experience of running the EV and towing too it’s not always required so you can stick to 20-80%

 

[Hutch]

Give In Buckman, you have gone from Jeep Diesel, to Lexus Hybrid, not long before you are on the Full EV team.

 

[JTQ]

Give In Buckman, you have gone from Jeep Diesel, to Lexus Hybrid, not long before you are on the Full EV team.

Another way to look at it, one issue replaced with two, all the challenges of the ICE & all that electric clobber, not only that the very fact its a hybrid, the battery is being cycled more than the more kinder EV application.
Has to be brave

 

[otherclive]

Another way to look at it, one issue replaced with two, all the challenges of the ICE & all that electric clobber, not only that the very fact its a hybrid, the battery is being cycled more than the more kinder EV application.
Has to be brave

A recent report stated that PHEV were less reliable than hybrid or ICE but EV were better than PHEV too.. I think Buckman is okay as Lexus/Toyota have been producing hybrids now since the Prius in 1997 and have an excellent reputation for reliability. Can so many taxi drivers be wrong?