Driving Licence Changes

[Lutz]

Changes are in the pipeline concerning EU-wide driving licence categories. The current restriction on a Category B licence which does not allow the MTPLM of the trailer (caravan) to exceed the MIRO (kerbweight) of the towcar will be lifted. Only the gross train weight limit of 3500kg will continue to apply.
A new Category B96 will be introduced allowing a gross train weight of 4250kg (again, no weight ratio restriction)..
The above changes will make a Category B+E licence superfluous for most caravan owners.
I don't know when these changes will come into effect in the UK. as local laws must be brought into line accordingly and this can take time which may vary from country to country. (In Germany the implementation date will be 19.01.2013).

 

[ProfJohnL]

That is interesting news, and in the light of recent debates here on the forum, it may explain why the DfT are not overly concerned about definitions of MIRO or ULW for private cars. In essence they will have no legal implication, because the emphasis moves to the maximum weights.

This won't help the caravanning fraternity who still push the outmoded concept of 85% of kerbweight.

However being cynical by nature, I do wonder if the UK will follow the directive, as there seems to be growing anti EU movement spearheaded by the recent UK govt's reassertion of our sovereignty over prisoners rights to vote

 

[Lutz]

My understanding is that the UK has agreed,in principle, to adopt the changes and it's only a question of when they will be implemented.
I have heard rumours, however, that there is some uncertainty as to whether the UK will actually issue Category B96 licences.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

My own personal view, I would like them to introduce a practical and theory test for would be towers of any type of trailer. You only have to read some of the posts on this forum to appreciate the misunderstandings some folk have regarding loading and towing safely.

Lutz, if the UK were not to introduce the category B96 license, would this mean that all combinations of private vehicles would be restricted to 3500 kgs, unless they were to obtain an HGV license?

Allan.

 

[JohnGriffiths]

That is interesting news, and in the light of recent debates here on the forum, it may explain why the DfT are not overly concerned about definitions of MIRO or ULW for private cars. In essence they will have no legal implication, because the emphasis moves to the maximum weights.

This won't help the caravanning fraternity who still push the outmoded concept of 85% of kerbweight.

However being cynical by nature, I do wonder if the UK will follow the directive, as there seems to be growing anti EU movement spearheaded by the recent UK govt's reassertion of our sovereignty over prisoners rights to vote

I've no figures but I guess probably 95% of people are furious about prisoners being given the vote whereas 95% of people couldn't care less about changes to DL regulations regarding towing. Popular opinion regarding the issue is more likely to drive government decisions rather than any general anti EU feeling.
But back to topic, I hope this doesn't mean a chance for the gov't to bring in time limited photocard licences for everyone with of course charges to renew.

 

[JonnyG]

My own personal view, I would like them to introduce a practical and theory test for would be towers of any type of trailer. You only have to read some of the posts on this forum to appreciate the misunderstandings some folk have regarding loading and towing safely.

Lutz, if the UK were not to introduce the category B96 license, would this mean that all combinations of private vehicles would be restricted to 3500 kgs, unless they were to obtain an HGV license?

Allan.

Where towing is concerned an hgv license gives you no more entitlement to tow a private vehicle.Its is a commercial license and indeed as such has different rules applied.But having just looks on the GOV site...Christ its bloody complicated and i am assuming B+E is the licence one needs to tow above 3500kg or at least on my pre 86 and therefore pre 97 licence.Where as my class C licience upto 26 tonnes does not give me anymore towing entitkements, although i appear to have C1E too! that states i can tow a trailer of 4500kg if attached to a 7500kg small lorry! Iam going back bed................

 

[Lutz]

Most pre-1997 licences include a B+E entitlement.
If the UK decides not to issue B96 licences, outfits with a gross train weight of over 3500kg will require a B+E licence.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

"Where towing is concerned an hgv license gives you no more entitlement to tow a private vehicle"

Not strictly true, a few years ago we used to have a class 4 license for small articulated vehicles, any one back then who wanted to tow what they now call in the camping world " fithwheelers" had to undertake the class 4 test, so in essence if and when this new law is introduced drivers who have past there test after the 97 cut off point and wish to drive a vehicle in excess of 3.5 (B96) tons would surly have to sit an HGV test as they did then, and now with CPC`s to contend with it gets ever more complex.............Ho dear I'm off for a lay down now

 

[Lutz]

A Category B+E licence does not constitute an HGV licence. The latter is covered by Category C.(or C1 if the vehicle weighs between 3500kg and 7500kg)

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Thanks Lutz, I think I understand now, well almost lol, off for another lay down...............................What with leaking toilets and alarms, what a Day.

Allan.

 

[JonnyG]

Thanks Lutz, I think I understand now, well almost lol, off for another lay down...............................What with leaking toilets and alarms, what a Day.

Allan.

Do you? because those are the bits that had me going back to bed......

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi all.
pardon me for being confused but as I understand it there is no weight limit imposed on any vehicle that is used for private purposes ie a double decker bus converted to a motor home is just a motor home and no longer classed as a PSV or HGV requiring a special licence to drive it neither does it have to have a tacograph as it is not used for comercial purposes.
a friend of ours has for years driven a tow truck around with trailer attached for taking his classic cars to shows and never had any other licence than a ordinary one. why anyone should need a HGV licence to tow a fifth wheeler round is beyond me.
the reason a HGV class 4 licence was required years ago was simply because all fifth wheelers WERE commercial vehicles
had one been used for private use "for some reason" it would not have been nessesary to gain a class 4 to use it.
as someone previously said I have a C1 licence and it does not entitle me to drive anything different exept in the context of driving goods vehicles for a living

 

[OmOnWeelz]

I've had a few good days and today had gone pretty well util I read EU in the post. There is a campaign under way, being run by a well know newspaper. With luck enough of you and your family and friends will have signed up to get us out of the EU before this can cost us anything.
The only benefit Europe has for most Brits is holiday climate

With troops due back from the 'eastern' front and with quite a few left in Germany a swift pincer movement and we could close Brussels in a flash and have Delors and comapny filling the H Blocks.

 

[Lutz]

hi all.
pardon me for being confused but as I understand it there is no weight limit imposed on any vehicle that is used for private purposes ie a double decker bus converted to a motor home is just a motor home and no longer classed as a PSV or HGV requiring a special licence to drive it neither does it have to have a tacograph as it is not used for comercial purposes.

Driving licences do not distinguish between what purpose the vehicle is put to, i.e. whether it is used commercially or privately.
Even the Category D licence, which applies to vehicles with more than 9 seats, is needed even if the vehicle is not used for the carriage of fare-paying passengers. Conversely, if seats are removed out of a bus in the course of a conversion to a motor home, the 'D' licence is no longer required.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

hi all.
pardon me for being confused but as I understand it there is no weight limit imposed on any vehicle that is used for private purposes ie a double decker bus converted to a motor home is just a motor home and no longer classed as a PS or HGV requiring a special licence to drive it neither does it have to have a tacograph as it is not used for comercial purposes.
a friend of ours has for years driven a tow truck around with trailer attached for taking his classic cars to shows and never had any other licence than a ordinary one. why anyone should need a HGV licence to tow a fifth wheeler round is beyond me.
the reason a HGV class 4 licence was required years ago was simply because all fifth wheelers WERE commercial vehicles
had one been used for private use "for some reason" it would not have been nessesary to gain a class 4 to use it.
as someone previously said I have a C1 licence and it does not entitle me to drive anything different exept in the context of driving goods vehicles for a living

That was the main reason that the not so new "fithwheelers" of today never got of the ground as indeed a class 4 license WAS required.
The law in this respect is an Ass, the reason your friend can drive a tow truck around is because it is a fixed plant vehicle and as such exempt from a HGV license and taco graph rules.

The other silly one you could drive any PSV on a private car license, provided you were not carrying any fair paying passengers.

But step inside an HGV that is designed to carry goods, IE not fixed plant, and you have to undergo a medical to obtain a provisional HGV license and be accompanied at all time until you have passed your test.

Now times have moved on, and those above rules have most probably changed, but that is how it used to stand in my days back in the 70s and hence the class 4 license.

Lutz is spot on :
Driving licenses do not distinguish between what purpose the vehicle is put to, i.e. whether it is used commercially or privately.

 

[JonnyG]

The law in this respect is an Ass, the reason your friend can drive a tow truck around is because it is a fixed plant vehicle and as such exempt from a HGV license and taco graph rules.

Not entirely sure of this. when the alhambra threw its alternator wheel, the tow truck that picks us up using our mayday cover, asked us how far our house was away. Roughly 60 to 65 miles was my answer, and apparently 60 odd mile was how far the tow truck could go without have to use tacho rules and regs.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

As I said the law has most probably changed one hell of a lot since I hung up my HGV1 license. But back then, you could drive a rigid vehicle up to 8 tons gross weight on a normall car license, the favored vehicle of the day being the TK Bedford with canvas sides and roof (tilt) giving an unladen weight of around 3 tons, and a payload of 5 tons, but if it was a super imposed trailer as in articulated, for the same weight it then became a class 4 license requirement whether for goods or private use, then 8 tons to 16 tons was a class 3, 16 tons to 26 tons, was the old now defunct class 2,(rigid with more than 2 axles) the class 1 took you to artics at 32 tons, but as I said, the law then was an Ass and most probably still is Today, as you could drive an eight wheeler recovery truck, as it was fixed plant, towing a 32 ton artic being recovered without a HGV license or tacograph! Another example being BT, who used 16 ton trucks to install telegraph poles, again exempt from both HGV license regiments and tacograph law as they were fixed plant. And you were allowed to drive a double decker bus, or coach on an ordinary car license, providing you were not carrying any fair paying passengers, so in essence, if you held an HGV license and wanted to drive bus`s for a living you had to undergo psv training (now PCV and LGV respectively) and had to prove evidence of entitlement at renewal every 3 years (IE you had to submit proof that you had been driving them) but was not a requirement for your HGV license at every 5 years, crazy, you hold a HGV license but you could not drive a bus with passengers on board.

Allan without Gill, she has gone for a lie down, in a dark quiet room..... lol

 

[Lutz]

But there is no such thing as an HGV licence any more.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Correct Lutz, it has now changed names to LGV, large goods vehicle, as used to be HGV, heavy goods vehicle, and we no longer have PSV, public service vehicle, now known as, PCV, passenger carrying vehicle.
Another one to change was RTA, road traffic accident, now referred to as RTI, road traffic incident, beyond me as to why they have to make all these name changes.
Allan.

 

[Lutz]

And at work we were no allowed to call a fire a fire. It had to be referred to as a thermal incident.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Lutz, was it attended by the thermal brigade in a thermal engine...........................................

 

[mullsy1]

'RTA' became 'RTI' because 'accident' implies no one is to blame and modern Britain always has to blame someone

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi. the reason or my confusion I think comes from the fact that my friend still has a old green licence (many still do) with 4 groups.
A.any motor vehicle
C. any motor cycle
D. any electrically propelled vehicle
E.any vehicle of any group not in the above.
no mention of weights or trailers or number of seats. as the licence is still valid the new groupings seem not be rel'evant a fact bourne out by the old bill who have stopped him a few times on his way to shows.

 

[hgv dave]

hi all
ill just give you a silly fact...............if you own a fairground you can drive a hgv (lgv) on a car licence as long as the vehical is registered as a showmans vehical and as long as the driver is over 21
now im fairly sure of this,if you have a bus/coach/lgv which has been re-classed for private use,you must have the relevent licence because of the weight and size, looking at it another way it would mean anyone with a car licence would be able to jump into a lgv/bus/coach without any training at all and lets face it how many times as caravaners have we been sneered at because of idiots who have no idea of caravaning hook up a van race down a motorway and cause an accident and we all get tared with the same brush

hgv dave

 

[hgv dave]

hi all
ill just give you a silly fact...............if you own a fairground you can drive a hgv (lgv) on a car licence as long as the vehical is registered as a showmans vehical and as long as the driver is over 21
now im fairly sure of this,if you have a bus/coach/lgv which has been re-classed for private use,you must have the relevent licence because of the weight and size, looking at it another way it would mean anyone with a car licence would be able to jump into a lgv/bus/coach without any training at all and lets face it how many times as caravaners have we been sneered at because of idiots who have no idea of caravaning hook up a van race down a motorway and cause an accident and we all get tared with the same brush

hgv dave